Neutralizer designs?

Unknown

I'd rather,

most of all, this thread didn't turn into a urinating contest if you don't mind. I've been around long enough to make up my own mind how I want to do things and I try to err on the side of doing what I feel is the best way.

Unknown

I thought the op (MPF)

was asking about neutralizer designs? In other words what do others use!
Somehow this thread got off-track relating to rainfall & competence issues amongst fellow tradesmen, both of whom are reputable and capable.
PLEASE, let`s not resort to "this & that" childish rebuttal issues, lets stick to the topic at hand Hmmm?

Dave

Unknown

The rain part,

interests me, the trash talk part does not.

I know there's a difference between the rain and exhaust condensate. I have a place where someone other than myself piped a furnace exhaust tight to the building so it blows straight down the wall. You can see the erosion taking place on the face of the block in that area. I'm just curious, now, as to the actual PH of the rain around here. I think it's an interesting question. Trouble is now that I WANT it to rain...

Unknown

You Know Mark

Lately you have really been getting on me. Weather your your insulting my method of reversing returns or my method of getting rid of condensate. There was a time 10 or 15 years ago I remember you tieing small tubes to the back of your pumps from a common compression tank to see what the pressure dif was on the pumps, you were interesting then, always experimenting, looking for the truth. Now you just recite some code and give no science for your explanation.There is no universal code, we all live in different temperate zones and soil conditions. im a big boy, but back it up with a little science or some good facts. Why dont you explain to us the diffrence between #4 ph condensate waste and the #4 ph rain barrel under the rain spout. Do one of your experiments but dont just recite code, that is for people with slave mentalities. Ive used neutralizers that I made out of pvc drum traps,of course in a city home with no place to dump and a cast iron sewer you have to. I have seen guys actually scared to touch gas condensate because they think it will eat thier skin off.

DanHolohan

Tony,

please don't curse on my Web site. I don't allow it. It's unprofessional.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Unknown

Sorry Dan

Im just the kinda guy that when I get insulted likes to reach out and touch ya. This getting pencil whipped online is frustrating for me.
See you next week in Hershey
TONY

Mark Eatherton

Tony...

I refuse to get wrapped up in your tit for tat. My major concern is making sure that those who don't know better don't get sucked into a scheme that will cause them stress in any way at any time.

You are who you are, and you do what works for you. So be it. But when it starts violating code issues, it's time for me to take a stand. You have already offended some of he finest people who grace the face of this Earth (HR), and that is your choice, and that may be your modus operandi. So be it. But when I see someone touting something that is wrong, and or illegal, I will step in and call an ace an ace and a spade a spade. You are allowed to do as you see fit. Just don't try and talk other people in to doing what YOU perceive as being right unless YOU come to the table with legitimate CODE approved methods.

As far as my endorsement of magnetic water conditioners, you have obviously not read my disclaimers, which state that if you are dealing with critical situations, I.E. STEAM for POWER applications, that you had best stick with proven chemical treatments. And I have NEVER said that it was a "softener", I have always maintained that it is a "conditioner", and suggest that its application be limited to the use on DHW heating systems, and that it NEVER be applied in situations where "glass water" is present, because it has NO effect. That is because I have been applying it in those situations for approximately 25 years. And I HAVE seen it work with calcium, and YOU can NOT dispute my findings, regardless of your background. Can I tell you how it works? No, but who cares, it works!

I am not saying you are competent or not. I don't know you from Adam. You might be the nicest guy in the world, but when you come on to a web site that is frequented by people who come here to learn, and I see someone making statements that are contrary to code requirements, I have an obligation to step up and say something. I did and in my opinion, it is done. I do not want to waste band width with you, and am not interested in making you look bad. I just calls them as I sees them.

As far as you calling me out on age, I refuse to comment on that. I'm still turning and burning, contrary to your opinion, and I guarantee I can pipe circles around you :-)

Contrary to your personal opinion of me, I am NOT out to "get you". It's not in my makeup.

Peace brother...

I am ( hopefully) done with this thread.

ME

Unknown

Mark and Hot Rod

Im sorry if I offended you. Hot Rod , in no way did I try to offend you. I talk to you like I talk to my brothers and friends, maybe something is lost in translation.
Anyway I let my wife read these post and she said that...These guys are not like your biker buddies, that you are more mature and sensitive with your inner feelings( whatever that means)and that I should apologize. So I take her advice on these matters...So Im sorry!
TONY

Unknown

Your right Dave

back to the subject. I suppose the most important thing here would be to make sure whatever device is built...is that it works! I would figure testing at 1/4 to 1/2 full so as to insure neutrality throughout heating season. I know that using straight crushed marble or limestone is usually only good for a 5.8 or higher, magox mix good for a 4.5 or better and once we get to 4 ph soda ash injection is the only way. Soda ash is a pain because it flocculates easily, but the sock idea sounds good. Do you have any numbers on the amount needed per gallon to neutralize, if not I have a navien here I can pull a gallon out of and figure the amount needed per gallon, then we could just figure the running hours in each area and err on the side of caution.

tommyoil

I hate to say it

But I told you so. Its NOT just MY opinion obviously.

DanHolohan

Tommy,

the guy apologized. Please back off.

tommyoil

Poor practice

to dump condensate on the ground here. We dont do it and never did for all the reasons others have already stated. Inspectors here dont like to see it either. But that is one of the pitfalls of actually having your work inspected. I cant just rely on what I think is right or wrong. I have to actually ANSWER for poor work practices.

tommyoil

10-4

Sorry to keep hitting the same nerve.

DanHolohan

Thanks.

You wouldn't like someone doing it to you, Tom. I know that.

tommyoil

Out of respect

I will abide by house rules. Heard,Understood,Acknowledged.

Unknown

There is a town here,,,

where I recently changed out a furnace. I called for an inspection and the lady says, "You do? Nobody ever calls for those." Then she went on to say how virtually none of the permits pulled in this town have ever been closed out. I said, "Well then, am I making a mistake by calling you?" She says, "No, you're doing the right thing." un bleepin believable! lol...

Unknown

Actually Tony,

As of yet, I`ve never completely depleted one(did my first 3 seasons ago), and(as I stated) have used soda-ash, also calcite both with good results.
I put about 3-4 lbs. in a panty-hose type sockette then just knot the ends. I find it lays tightly to the the sides of my separator(no bypassing or channeling), also I don`t look like Fred Flintstone when I get asked "what`s that?"
The last few (I check them yearly with PH tester & content) have still been almost full (except for some dirty combustion products clinging on the outside of the sock), I just rinse it off and use again. No fuss, no mess.

Dave

Unknown

Ok I called the sewer department

Plumbing inspector told me to talk to the sewer authority They were very clear on this subject..No rainwater or any water that has not been metered. He ask if it was more than a quart a day..I said, is that a quart a day divided over the course of a year, he said, are you a wise guy! I ask about acid waste, he said it must be neutralized in a manner approved by this administation..I said , how is that, Any approved neutralizing system.. Approved by who? Any reputable third party testing agency, in your case CGA. Next call was my lawyer, will see him after lunch, gave him a brief description of what we will be talking about. He said..So you want to go into the hazardous waste treatment equipment manufacturing business.. you better come in so we can talk...cha ching. I was going to call my insurance company but I think I will hold off until I speak with my lawyer. I think im getting an idea why the manufacturers havent jumped on this condensate neutralizer business. Will let you know tonight what the lawyer says..

Unknown

The problem with plumbing inspectors

Is even though they approve something they hold no liability. You are ultimately the one who is responsible.

hot_rod

no hard feelings here

I understand the passion and excitement that goes along with the chat room communication.

hr

Unknown

Dave

are you checking them when the unit is running and flowing, Because as you know contact time is crucial in neutralization?

Unknown

Yessir,

as that is the only way(unless opening the top), a sample can be taken.
As the units are not pressurized(except for vertical height), and leech through so slowly, I never have a prob.

Dave

Robert O'Brien

TONY

I have to ask,given your oft stated hatred of oilheat,why go to a NAOHSM show? 4000 oil guys? Just imagine the odor!

CC.Rob_15

the pH of rain

Start here:
http://www.epa.gov/acidrain/measure/index.html

and then go here (linked from above):
http://nadp.sws.uiuc.edu/

and click on isopleth maps, to eventually end up here:
http://nadp.sws.uiuc.edu/isopleths/maps2007/phlab.gif

which is a national map of rainfall pH. Northeast U.S. is about 4.5.

Unknown

Thank you!

;-)

TONY_22

Talked to my lawyer

To make it short.... Don't build something you can buy and divert liability. He showed cases of chimneys that were "supposedly" destroyed by flue gas condensate and the plumbers insurance had to rebuild a old falling down chimney and these jobs were inspected! Building something like a neutralizer puts you in a whole category that honestly I know nothing about and don't care to. Basically if the sewer collapses or the septic tank corrupts, even if it wasn't the gas condensate, you are not going to have a good day. If you are going to build something, it is a good idea to have your local authority approve it in writing and your customer to sign a waiver, even then it gets into direction how to maintain and refill,considering the average American only stays in a house 7 years. I get a headache listening to all this. So for me, Im staying out of the sewer whenever possible and when I cant, I will use a commercially available neutralizer. Considering the liability here, I would suggest talking to your insurance co. before manufacturing anything. If this catches on, replacing sewers may be the next chimney liner catastrophe.

TONY_22

I never said

I didnt repair it or install it. I live close by. Last year when I was at the oil show in AC I learned about the Navien, turned out to be a good thing. Listen, its not that I hate oil, if they would find a way to heat a home using no energy and it didnt include hydronics I would be happy. Im not going to defend my trade against the quality of life I leave for those I leave behind. I would just change my trade if I had to. I also install coal stokers and wood boilers, I even helped my neighbor install his wood boiler and trust me some mornings I wish I hadnt. I am going to the solar show in Buffalo, and I am going to do whatever it takes to become a licensed PV installer. I dont think gas is the great save all either, but for now at least its domestic.

Unknown

The truth here is that

furnace and boiler manufacturers should be taking care of providing neutralizers with the equipment which have been tested and approved. Along with that maintenance instuctions with the device. Do that and the problem is solved as long as what comes out of the neutralizer is safe and approved by local AHJ.

Rich Kontny_3

Exactly

Tim,

You said it all as the manufacturer is looking for field people to accept liability. This thread came with a demo though, several caustic tongues neutralized by the moderator.

TONY_22

Robert

Also I have been following the recent advances in algae and sunflower seed bio fuel. There could be major breakthroughs in these fields, as a matter of fact a recent breakthrough in separation of the oil from the algae was just made. If this happens and the oil is produced from non food sources or usable farmland this could be a large part of the future considering the oil infrastructure is already in place. Maybe this bio fuel will burn a lot cleaner and lend itself better to condensing type oil boilers. If I were an oil man I would certainly look into this field. Not only would it be good for the enviroment, it would be non-toxic and it might not smell all that bad.

JK_3

Burnham

Burnham has one available that I beleive works and eliminates liability(requires service). I ordered one a few months back(installed on a mod/con named after a cat) but can not find it again. The burnham part# 101867-01. Where did it go(maybe the condensate ate it) ?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

EJ hoffman

Noritz has one

included in their new condensing water heater. Houston Texas has a code on the the collection and re-use of condensate. I say keep it and bottle it, maybe infused with a little essence of lemon, name it Conde' water and sell for 2 bucks a gallon
I usually pump it into a rain barrel and let the HO know which one will be acidic

Ron Gillen

Not nuts about vodka

......But maybe with a little "Conde" water I might be convinced to change my mind.

scott markle_2

What about the lead, cadmium, and other toxic heavy metals that are present in condensate?

On the surface wide spread centralized wastewater treatment would seem to be a huge and unassailably positive advance in pubic health. However If we look deeper and through the lens of sustainability the flush toilet and the infrastructure that makes it possible deserves the same scrutiny as all of the other aspects of our society that we are attempting to "green".

Our municipal septic systems do an excellent job of preventing the spread of fecal born pathogens, and for the most part do an good job of mitigating the release of excess nutrients into our rivers. The emerging field of eco sanitation (ecosan) seeks to change the way view this "waste" stream. Ultimately when the Natural gas that is used to produce nitrogen fertilizers ( Haber–Bosch process) becomes scarce, we will be required to revisit the age old use of human waste as fertilizer.

Our nations municipal wast treatment facilities (in large part) amount to a subsidized toxic waste disposal system. Theoretically this is all regulated and controlled but in reality huge quantities of toxic material are dumped in our nations sewers unmeasured and unregulated and unpaid. Mixing the poop and urine with water is the first mistake but then lacing it with a host of toxic chemicals largely diminishes the prospects for reclaiming this resource in food production agriculture.

Unknown

This is true Scott

But whether the byproducts condensate in the unit or condense in the air they all end up the same place, I just finished reading the latest issue of Scientific America- Earth 3.0. It is an excellent issue. Some of the numbers and facts are so staggering you really wonder if we can change it. The biofuel people are hoping to reach 50 million gallons a year for jet aircraft fuel.. but the jets use 270 million gallons a day. I think sometimes its like building a house of cards and you have to stop at some point and knock the whole thing down to the foundation and start again with a better foundation. Might be kinda cool, at least it would be exciting.

George_37

condensate neutralizer

> most of all, this thread didn't turn into a

> urinating contest if you don't mind. I've been

> around long enough to make up my own mind how I

> want to do things and I try to err on the side of

> doing what I feel is the best way.



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