American made products

DanHolohan

It's a global economy.

Gary P

I am looking for heating products, valves, fittings, circs, controll panels. Anything associated with heting and plumbing systems.
My question is what products are made in the USA, I know many compines are locted in the US but how many of there products are manufactured in the US. I as a contractor spend a lot of money each year on materials. I would like to see that my money is staying in the US. There are many great produts these days and very competive prices. I have the time to see who is located in the US but not enough time to look into were they are manufactured.

DanHolohan

Gary,

does every part of the product have to be made in the U.S.?

Rusty Powers

Good Point Dan

I share Gary's view, that we can protect U.S. jobs by buying American. To me the value of the product rates slightly higher,(reliability for example).
But where do you draw the line for "American Made"? Designed, manufactured, assembled?
More than 50%??
Is there any modern heating system that is 100% American made? I just looked at the capacitor in my favorite U.S. circulator, and it says "made in the U.K."

eluv8

Buy American

I whole heartedly agree in buying American, although gone seems the days of manufacturing in the United States. Its very difficult to find anything that is not somehow tied to the foreign markets. I recently learned you can buy product from Korea and still keep the American label, makes it all the more difficult to know the difference. Its hard for companies to turn away from the cheap labor available in other countries when your competitors are already outsourcing if you want to stay competitive price wise. At least some manufactures own the factories that employ those foreign workers.

DanHolohan

Do you think

American companies should not sell to foreign customers?

And do you think that foreign customers should not buy anything from American companies?

Andrew Hagen_2

The giant sucking sound

My concern is that the "They build. We buy" model of doing things can't be sustainable, can it? To me that's like saying "I'm going to pour water out of this can and it will stay full."

DanHolohan

Do you think

every country should stand alone and independent? No trade at all? Is that how to keep the can full?

Justin Topel

Good point

I feel that open trade is a good thing. I buy things from Europe all of the time. They make some good products and I will support them for that. It is the same as buying a car. If domestic production is poor, buying abroad can raise the standard of quality that is demanded by the consumer. Toyota was nobody back in the 70s, look at them now. I try to buy products that support us here at home, but I find myself caring more about the quality than the location of production. If a product is manufactured here in the states, but has too many problems, it looks bad for me and costs me or the customer more money. I feel that greed is the one of the most powerful forces in human nature. It even affects us as little kids when want the bigger piece of cake than a sibling. Some companies outsource for greed, others for survival unfortunately. I know that there are some great companies who hate having to outsource, but if they don't is some areas they could go under because everyone else is manufacturing in that manner. If there is a choice between two well built product yes I will choose the domestically produced item. However, I will not buy something that is inferior just because it is produced here. That will only continue to reinforce poor products. Even those who claim to be made in the good ole' USA may have very little benefit here at home since it is only assembled here from foreign parts. I like companies who take care of their employees as well. That is one of the reasons I like Taco products. Not because no one else makes a good product, but I love how they treat people like people, not numbers. I find too often that everyone likes to talk about supporting the home front, but it seems that costs is more of an issue when the proposal is presented. The 5K light fixture is more important than solar or a well installed hydronic system that comes with service and integrity. I have always said that in a lot of cases people's desire to be green carries less weight than their desire to hold on to their green (money). They love saving money, but they don't always want to pay for it up front. If the oil prices jump again, then the picture changes. I feel that unfortunately our economy runs on an emotion rather than a duty to support others. It is a vicious downwards spiral that is run by greed and speculation. I try my best to help change the way my clients look at things. Our job is to help the customers not only with their heating plant, but in other ways that will benefit others as well. Sorry for the long reply.

Andrew Hagen_2

The problem is extremely complicated

Definitely not.

My take on the whole thing, not being an economist at all, is that we have been subsidizing our high rate of consumption on the backs of cheap foreign labor. In the process we send our manufacturing plants and knowledge overseas. We send our manufacturing jobs overseas, which also results in job losses in other industries that supported the ones that were sent overseas. We also send our pollution overseas, further delaying the necessary cleanup of certain industries.

I think the extent to which we have outsourced our manufacturing has gone beyond the equilibrium point. I feel the balance is somewhere between where we are and where we were 50 years ago.

DanHolohan

What do you think we should do?

How do you go back 50 years?

Andrew Hagen_2

The future.

It's not that I think there was this American manufacturing utopia 25 or 50 years ago. I do not think the correction is something we can consciously do. We can't force people to buy American products for a higher price. Even if we could, I do not think that would solve the problem.

I think our economy is transitioning to a new phase from a period of high rate expansion to a period of maintaining or even contracting. One thing that may help keep American jobs here is high energy prices. When it costs a lot to ship materials and finished goods across the ocean, the economics of the labor cost savings can change. Cheap energy made much of the economic expansion of the 20th century possible. As much as we hate to pay the bill for $4, $5, or $6 gas, it may be necessary for the overall long term health of our economy and nation as a whole.

There never was anything like 20th century America before and there probably never will be again because the era of cheap energy is nearing an end.

jp_2

Designed here ?

I'd settle for designed and worked out the bugs here, someone else can build it if necessary.

but if we can't/don't design anything, we are dead in the water...

the grocery store does not want to tell you whether the apples are from the US or mexico, that is wrong, we should have the choice.

Andrew Hagen_2

Designed and built.

One guy can design a product that takes hundreds or thousands of people to manufacture. I doubt we can (or want to be) be a nation of engineers. I absolutely agree that we need to have the knowledge here. I just think we also need more of the manufacturing.

jp_2

yes i agree

but a designer(good) can teach a worker to build, doesn't work the other way around. we shouldn't be shipping any design jobs out, other than maybe simple stuff.

added: I forgot to say we should also build the machines that the "others" make the products with.

the machines i helped build for auto suppliers took more people to build them than to operate them. of course an operator had a full time job with basically one machine.

Jim Erhardt_3

Don't kid yourself...

...the U.S. remains a manufacturing/exporting powerhouse in high-value goods, such as aircraft and medical technology.

A good read here that will offer some perspective:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30229507/?GT1=43001

an old wrench puller

Ahhh Yes;

"The Global Economy" The "Buzz Word" for depression era unemploment and the degrading of our middle class standard of living. There's lots of room at the bottom. 6 Billion Third world sweat shop workers cant be wrong.

Don't kid your self, this country's headed for hell in a hand basket, and the "Have's" at the top dont care. Its us, in the working class, that will pay.... as we always have.

DanHolohan

Seems to me

a global economy is when countries trade with each other. Part of the problem we're facing right now is that the standard of living is rising in countries that were once poor. More people chasing a limited amount of raw material. Tom Friedman makes a good case for this in his book, "Hot, Flat and Crowded," which I think everyone in the energy business should read.

Unknown

When talking about

a "Global Economy" another book to read is the Bible which in the end talks about a one world government/economy/monetary system operated by a super intelligent genius. Anybody know his name? This by the way has nothing to do with religion.

an old wrench puller

Dan, we are going down much faster then they are comming up. The only thing being traded is who is doing the work. When American companies move an existing facility over seas or over the border, they are only adding to their pockets. This is NOT "trade". It is greed.

And I, for one, never noticed a big drop in the cost of valves, or pipe, or B&G cirrcut setters or anything else, when they started being imported. So wheres the "savings"?

I would like to patronize those that patronise me. I personaly have never been hired by the mexicans, chinese, thilandese (?) or even canadians. I used to be able to buy furniture made here in this town. I used to be able to buy hardware, auto parts, and tools all made here in this town. Those industries are all but gone now. The jobs gone with them.

I agree that world wide trading is, can, and even should take place, but they way its done is world wide explotation. We need those jobs here and now.

More people, Dan, are chasing a very limited amout of money. The "Haves" alway win that race.

DanHolohan

You should

check out that book I mentioned. It's filled with perspective.

DanHolohan

Worth reading and (I think) important

In the current issue of Business Week:

Three-million open jobs that can't be filled

don_205

perspective

How about this one.Why is it in my day growing up when one went to cross the street and a car was coming you ran.I do not see that in the younger generation.

What about the american worker..would this be a true statement to say that we/they are spoiled.

How many of you guys get guys that come to work for you demanding top pay in they bring nothing to the table?How about the ones that call in at least once a week with a excuse of why they can not be at work today?

What about the ones that would never think about picking up a book to better themself in the trade.What about the one you send to class and they come with nothing learn.no its not the teacher.

I could go on and on about the american worker that assume just because he is a american he is intitle to get more then he has work for.

Yes it sad to say..I feel that we have lost the greatest generation america has ever had.They will be missed.

DanHolohan

Do you think

they're all like that, or just some?

Andrew Hagen_2

Books

I have not read Friedman's book, but I recently attempted to read Richard Heinberg's "Peak Everything". When he started talking about the US transitioning to an agrarian society, he lost me. I think the US economy would have to completely collapse for that to happen.

The reality is almost always somewhere in the middle. The US will probably never be the powerhouse it once was, but it will not completely collapse. A lot of things had to come together at the same time to create what America was during the 20th century.

So enough doom and gloom. I think we can emerge from the situation we are in as a stronger country than we have been for 40 years if we play our cards right. I truly believe that energy is the key. He who has the energy (or does not need anyone else's energy) has the power. Right now we need a lot of other countries' energy, but it does not have to stay that way and we do not have to live in sod huts to do it.

an old wrench puller

I dont see it on your reading list...... i'll check the local library for a copy.

As a side note, I've read several books on your reading list and enjoyed them all. I'm thinking I need to dig out the one about the 1918 flu, seems like that could be a timely read....

Thanks Dan, for this playground.....

DanHolohan

What you're saying in that last

is what Friedman is writing about. He calls it E.T. (Energy Technology).

I wish everyone in this business would take the time to read this book. It's an important work and really opened my eyes to a lot of things I had never considered.

DanHolohan

I've been holding back

on adding to the list because we're in the middle of rebuilding the site. I'll get it up there, with a bunch of other good ones, as soon as we launch. Thanks, Pull.

Unknown

It always happens

The greedy moneychangers actually start to feel like they are better, as if they actually have some kind of real value. Many really believe they deserved their bonuses. They actually believe they have enough defenses in place to prevent an onslaught. Then in their arrogance they will say something stupid,such as...Let them eat cake...Then the fun begins! It happens over and over and over. Why should it be any different this time?

Rich Kontny_3

Not that long ago

that the countries that are now our trading partners were our bitter enemies. China armed to the teeth the North Koreans and the North Vietnamese.

Thirty years later the Chinese are manufacturing goods for our consumption. The Vietnamese are also. While we do have a very lop sided trade imbalance with China, we have developed a relationship that is preferable to conflict.

Globalization has erased isolationism and there really is no turning back. I worked for a wholesaler who tried the domestic product niche and they simply could not compete.
Anvil products still has a domestic line but does more and more off shore manufacturing.

I think the best we can hope for is "fair trade not free trade" and improvement of the quality of life for the third world countries that are capturing our manufacturers.

Labor is constantly under attack by cheaper labor sources,improved labor saving techiques and improved manufacturing processes. This is simply the way it is.

Raw materials, energy and world crisis also play into the equation. While China has seen tremendous growth it also has seem tremendous stress to it's infrastructure and environment.

Japan and South Korea also were once a threat, now they even outsource for cheaper labor.

Unknown

Wholesaler niche

In Reading PA we have several supply houses Hajoca, Michels, and many more But we also have a wholesaler called Yeager Supply who unfortunately isnt in the heating end but more into plumbing and mechanical. Anyway they only buy American pipe, fitting and products and only buy foreign goods when there is no other option. They are doing fine, they have excellent union countermen that really know their business. A truly professional outfit. It shows you can sell American goods and still stay in the game.

Rich Kontny_3

Same

As United in Milwaukee except the foreign option has become bigger as contractors want that bidding advantage. If a spec allows offshore materials you are forced to bid it that way.

Is there a tankless water heater made in the USA?? Why does Buderus have some wall hung boilers made in Korea? The control module for the Crown Boiler I worked on recently was from Slovakia. We are far past the domestic only question as only niche contractors remain domestic.

What about the vehicles we drive, the tools we use or the office equipment(computers) we use. Should w go domestc with all of this? Do we even have that option ?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

I'll second that

book recommendation. His is one of several I purchased last year. I'm re-reading HF&C & it's even more interesting because we're well past the election and far enough into the new administration to compare what's happening to what he said we need to be doing with respect to our carbon-based economy.

Do I agree blindly with whatever he suggests? Of course not, but I like reading columns, articles and books that challenge my preconcieved notions or beliefs or that bring out in better detail my emerging thoughts about where we are or should be headed - a clarifier.

As an aside, there are 200 more family farms in our area than there were five years ago. Fresh, local & healthy produce, meats & grains are making a comeback - foods that didn't travel 1,000-miles to get on a plate.

Leo G_103

Hmmmm

Others get richer, they can afford our stuff.

Win-win in my opinion.

Leo G

S Ebels_2

My thoughts

If there's any place in the world that is ground zero for this debate, it's the state of Michigan. This state has been owned by big business and big labor since the days of WWII, and now the love/hate relationship between those two entities is unraveling. The wages and concessions demanded by the unions in the big auto plants were egregious to say the least. I'm serious. As much as I value janitors and all they do to keep things running in their most basic of jobs, it's simply not worth $75/hr. I'm sorry, it's just not. Same thing with the "job pool" the unions demanded and got. How can a business afford to pay 95% of regular wage to workers who are not working? Simple answer, they can't and now they are paying the price.

Management is definitely at fault here too. Not only for failing to stand firm in the face of these and other demands from the unions but also for their own practices of excess at the management level. Failing to invest sufficiently in R&D would be a big one. (Witness the percentage of overall budget that Viessmannn operates with as opposed to any US boiler manufacturer)

The simple fact of the matter is that labor costs are far too high here in the US to allow this country to compete on a global scale. How can we remain a manufacturing economy when our competition is paying wages that haven't been seen here since the early 1900's. Who of us could work for $30 per hour, or $20 or that amount per day? Not a single one. The fixed cost overhead from insurances, utilities, work comp and all the rest amounts to double those per hour numbers. We can't go back to those wages without the complete break down of our economy and country.

I sit on the board of Directors of the Michigan Township Association and get to hear some of the scuttlebutt floating around the capital of our state. Our legislative liaisons speak with reps, senators and the governors office on a daily basis and they hear comments from companies that are considering coming to our state. We have seen manufacturer after manufacturer choose other states and locations for new plants and facilities. Why? Michigan's labor costs are high. Plain and simple. We are told time and again that the combination of union scale wages and government induced/mandated overhead leave our state at a severe disadvantage when it comes to operating costs. Companies like Mercedes, BMW, Honda to name a few have come here looked around, done the math and went elsewhere. All the hype about trained skilled labor means next to nothing. (Does that sound familiar?)
Workers can be trained in other states and places too.

It's intriguing to me to see that under the current plan, the UAW is going to have a 55% interest in the reformatted Chrysler when it comes out of bankruptcy. One person made the comment to me last week that the Obama administration is paying back the unions for their support during his campaign. Could be, but I think rather that the unions are being forced to lie in the bed they helped create. Being an owner will force them to deal with decisions at both the management and labor levels.

The simple fact is that labor costs have to come down, far down if the US is going to compete with China, Korea, Thailand and the rest. Their product quality is coming up just as Japan's did 30-40 years ago. Remember the jokes about stuff made by the J A Pan company? No one is joking any more and neither will we joke about products made in the other countries mentioned. They have a will to compete that we seem to have lost here for a myriad of reasons.

One of the huge impediments to being cost effective here in this country is government regulation. Speaking with reps from our industry for example I have been told that emission and pollution laws are so much more stringent here than in many other places in the world that making a brass valve is nearly impossible. We won't see manufacturing of those types of products come back.

DanHolohan

Before we cut wages

we should consider what Paul Kurgman has to say this morning:

Falling Wage Syndrome

Mitch_4

3 Generations

I read once about the theory of 3 generations of millionaires. It has been noted as a pattern, a family that makes millionaire status by creating and miking his own company, only survives to the 3rd generation (unless you are insanely rich like the Gates, Fords, or similar)

It goes like this.. Grandad starts a company, works long and hard, makes it so his kids can do well, Grandad's kids saw all the effort it took, and understand it when the inherit the business, and it continues, but the 3rd generation was born rich, only know rich and do not understand the sacrifices of grandpa, and end up losing most of it, or selling it to an outside interest to maintain the level of income they are used to.

American (and Candian) workers are into the 3rd generation..my father started creating the middle class. I furthered that creation, but my kids do not recognize the sacrifices of generations to attain our current lifestyle. My friends 20 Y.O daughter moved out, and figured her FIRST house would be similar in size to her parents, and was shocked, SHOCKED I say to find out that the bank did not agree to her plans..(she is working various part time jobs to make ends meet while looking for the perfect career) She knows money enough having supported herself, but fully expected new car, 2000 sq ft house with a nice manicured lawn as her FIRST home, not an apartment, or a small house..she (and many other kids I know) expect to move out and assume the same level of living we ( and our parents) struggled for!

The youth of today (not all certainly) expect to graduate, get a 75,000+ a year job, expense account, company car, cell, computer and a corner office...

Ity is tragic.

[Deleted User]

This nation has always traded with other nations. There is nothing new about global exchange. The real danger that we face is that we have a consumer economy now. We produce very little in the way of agricultural and industrial goods. We have become dependant on other nations for necessary things. If they shut off the supply line, we die; plain and simple. How many of you need food to live? Even if you could grow your own food chances are that most of your neighbors don't and if they run out, they'll take your's. Dependency is weakness. A strong nation produces for itself. Our trade deficit is horrendous. Our currency is shot. China is looking for ways to drop the dollar. China only exports about 12%. They don't need us, we need them.

Mike Miller_2

Wages

Cutting wages and benefits only makes things worse. Raise wages, raise productivity and which will enhance the value. And value is what you sell. If a manufacturer is going to seek out the cheapest labor costs, thats fine, but you really don't want that to be you, Do ya?

Rich Kontny_3

Then

Your labor costs in turn must come down also.This wash down effect will mean that a worker at one of these auto manufacturers will now not be able to afford high quality heating and pluming service.

They may no longer be able to afford a Harley, a boat or even college for their kids. We are in the midst of a major quality of life reduction. There is no way any of us will escape it.

Look up Craigslist in your area and see the ads for HVAC and plumbing sidework. Like globalization this downturn is here to stay and if you want the autoworkers to shrink wages you may want to get ready to shrink your own.

[Deleted User]

Repeat something often enough...

...and the public starts to believe it.

The wages of a janitor are nowhere close to $70 per hour. See this page for the facts:

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/do_auto_workers_really_make_more_than.html

The UAW agreed to take an equity position so the Voluntary Employee Benefit Association (VEBA), which will provide retiree health benefits, might survive in post-bankrupcy Chrysler. The VEBA must begin paying those benefits next year. UAW president Ron Gettelfinger has stated that the union will not be a long-term majority owner since it will need to sell off stock to keep the VEBA adequately funded.

I have no connection with the UAW, auto industry or any union.