Help with my steam system

Patrick McGrath

I called them, and they gave me a name. If he works out, I will inform him of the website to post his information.

Patrick McGrath

looking for a steam pro and some advice

Hello all:

I moved into a 1928 stucco house in January. I have a single pipe steam system. I bought all three books, by the way, and have made my way through the "pocketful" and "we got steam heat" guide...the monster is next. The previous owner had a gold seal service with a local HVAC company, but they have one steam guy, and he seems to lack true information (I just turned down - five minutes ago - the pressuretrol from the 2.0 he set it to .5...the inner dial was already at 1). I have yet to see if this will solve some of my issues. Ok, so thus far I have encountered:

1.) Many of the steam vents were clogged, so I replaced them all. I used some Hoffman 1As (I cleaned out the local supply store). I needed 11, they had three, and ordered 8. They were the "replacement" for Hoffman 1As, but not actually Hoffman parts. They are Dole vari-vents. I am unsure of the quality in comparison, but at least I know they aren't clogged...I may replace them next year with all Hoffmans. QUESTION: The homeowner's guide suggested a faster speed on larger radiators and slower on the smaller...is this right in all cases? I have been using the speed settings to balance the system as much as I can, but maybe that isn't a good idea? My big ones are on lower settings and my small ones are on higher settings. Should I ditch the Dole vents?

2.) Ok, that being said, I have two radiators that don't work well. One is in my daughter's room. Her room is the coldest bedroom in the house, and the radiator (even though I hear air coming out of the vent) never really seems to warm up. The vent is in the middle of the radiator, and it is pitched correctly. I have an electric heater in her room to warm it. The other radiator is on the third floor, and it bangs like crazy. It is pitched correctly, has a new vent, the vent is in the middle, and I pretty much have left it off. I will turn it on now that I have reduced pressure to see what occurs. This one backs up to a crawlspace, so there is also about 3 feet of exposed pipe before it feeds into the floor, so I intend to insulate it tonight. Any other thoughts on that one?
3.) I replaced the main vents that I could find (I found two) with Hoffman 75 Main Vents. This solved nothing. The old ones were pretty shot though. These are non-vacuum vents, thank God, because I bought them before buying the book. That would have been a costly mistake.

4.) There are a few issues I have also seen on the boiler. The pigtail on the pressuretrol is facing the wrong way, but it isn't quite like the one in the book. I would be more than willing to show pics to anyone who could provide some help. The low water cutoff (a McDonnell and Miller) leads to a "t" that goes to a pressure gauge (brand new, still doesn't show much pressure) and to a pigtail that leads to the pressuretrol. Because of the "t", a regular pigtail isn't used...going straight up is the gauge, and going to the right is the pigtail (like the numeral "6") and up to the pressuretrol. The pigtail is not facing the correct direction, and I don't think it can. A friend who works in HVAC suggested that the gauge should really run from the top of the boiler in order to read pressure, and he has offered to move it for me. Thought on this?

5.) Ok, coming out of the boiler for the steam feeds is copper pipe. Ugh. It is not insulated, either (this will be done tonight), but should I have it replaced? The rest of the system is insulated with asbestos. I am unsure if I am going to have it replaced right away, but I will in the future. Do I need to insulate the return to the boiler too (which is also copper)?

6.) My boiler is a Utica Gas Boiler. It says steam 636 sqft, BTU/hour 159,900. I have a 2600 sqft house. I have no idea if that is too big or too small.

7.) How much water should be in the boiler? The gauge glass shows about one-quarter full. I do have an auto-filler, but the book said that is only for the minimum amount of water needed in the system. The picture in the book shows the gauge at three-quarters full. What is right? There is a button on the autofill that allows me to add water.

8.) My largest concern, by far, is the pitch on the steam pipes leading to the rest of the house. There are no hangers on the pipes, which really gave the original steam guy the willies. Anyway, the steam feed from the boiler goes to a “t” which then shoots off to two feed pipes for the house. The one is pitched down (he expressed this as “I have never seen steam pipes run downhill”) like 19 inches. The other is not nearly as bad. The really pitched line is probably 20 feet long. He suggested that I buy some adjustable hangers and slowly begin to raise those lines (a couple of turns per week over the summer). This seems kind of hair-raising. Thoughts on this?

Finally, and if you have read this thus far, thank you, does anyone know of a pro in my area of Rochester, NY? Western, NY at all? I used the “find a professional” tool on the website, but it had no results.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate any help that can be offered.

Pat

nicholas bonham-carter

worth a thousand words

how about some pictures?

of course the steam main lines usually start out high against the ceiling and slope downwards as they run through the basement, feeding various risers as they go [parallel flow system], or the main starts out lower and slopes upwards as it goes from one riser to the next [counter flow]. maybe you have some sort of hybrid, as a result of some previous changes to the sytem. 19 inches is a lot of vertical sag to winch up. this may explain the pressure, which ideally should be under 16 ounces max.

the orientation of the pigtail is only important if you have a mercury-switch type pressuretrol, which you can see if you take the cover off. if the pigtail tilts the pressuretrol with the heat from the vertical, then it will not do its job accurately.

the thing to do is to make a plan of your piping and with a level make sure your slopes are in the same direction, otherwise you will have a pocket, where steam cannot pass through.

you may still need additional venting on the mains with gorton #2's on the venting locations. use a tee to add them to the hoffmans, and make sure they are in a location protected from water-hammer. the problem with the slow radiator may be due to the slowness of steam arriving there, after the thermostat has been satisfied in its location.--nbc

Jamie Hall

It really doesn't matter

which way the steam mains are pitched, provided that the condensate which gets into them can find its way back to the boiler. In the case of the one which pitches down 19 inches (egad!) that's a bit steep, perhaps, but so long as it goes to a wet return at the end, it'll work just fine. I wouldn't try pulling it up, as then any laterals to radiators just might wind up pitched the wrong way and that you do not want! You might, however, add some hangers just to make sure the pitch is even throughout.

What you do need is good big vents -- the Gortons nbc mentioned -- at the end of each of those mains. If there's a neat way to set them back about a foot from the ends, and a foot or two above the pipe, that's best.

Quarter full on the boiler should be OK. There may be a water line marked on the boiler (should be) to compare to.

I wouldn't bother to replace the asbestos. Remediation costs a mint. Instead, I have had great success wrapping the insulation in the kind of plaster impregnated cloth that surgeons use to make casts of -- and that model railroaders use to make scenery of. The latter source being a LOT cheaper. A bit messy while you're doing it, but it works just fine.

The way to find out whether the boiler is big enough is to add up the 'EDR' rating of all the radiators; there are tables around here somewhere for common radiator sizes. Then compare that to the rating on the boiler.

Insulating the pipe on the radiator which bangs -- and making sure that there is plenty of pitch -- is a good place to start. Can't hurt, and just might solve the problem.

bob young

radiation.

Is the house attached or detached. boiler could be oversized.

Patrick McGrath

Pictures.

Patrick McGrath

One didn't make it (this is the pipe behind the radiator in the crawlspace that I insulated tonight).

Patrick McGrath

I am unsure what this means. The boiler is in my basement.

Jim Bennett

Steam system...

I'm far from an expert, but it looks like your near boiler needs reworking. I would also get some of that insulation encapsulated.

Nice looking radiator though.

Jim

Patrick McGrath

plaster?

Jamie:

Plaster such as this?

http://www.amazon.com/Pacon-52720-Plastr-Plaster-Impregnated/dp/B0006HXP4A

Or:

http://www.amazon.com/Bulk-Plaster-Gauze-Inches-Feet/dp/B000OH2CA0/ref=pd_sbs_op_2

I can't tell which one contains more to ascertain which is a better deal.

Patrick

World Plumber

Venting

Looks like there was some evidence of flame rollout. Is the vent pie sealed behind where it goes in the wall. If not get it taken care of ASAP. Before CO2 elimates your worries.

Patrick McGrath

venting

Hello:

What do you mean by flame rollout, and where do you see evidence?

There was a fire in the room right above where the boiler sits. A woman attempted to take her own life by setting the drapes on fire in the living room. Is this consistent with what you see?

Patrick

jim s_2

EGADS!

Boiler piping is incorrect.

Looks like the same guy who piped it did some of the wiring as well.

Patrick McGrath

Do you mean the Hartford Loop? That would explain the banging at the end of the system.

Pat

nicholas bonham-carter

rollout

flame rollout is faulty, or delayed combustion, resulting in a tongue of flame appearing briefly outside the boiler, usually caused by dirty or misadjusted burners. it could be indicative of an excess of carbon monoxide. in your picture it looks as though the boiler front is getting hot around the burner.

as far as the pressuretrol is concerned, turn the pigtail, so its horizontal axis is perpendicular to the "eye" of the pigtail, and this will prevent the tilting during heating up of the pigtail.

the size of the pipes indicates to me that the hoffman 75 will not be enough venting.--nbc

Patrick McGrath

I am a knucklehead/vacuum valve

Hello all:

I spent some time looking through my receipts, and I found that I have installed two vacuum valves for my mains. Ugh. They are Hoffman 76.

http://www.hoffmanspecialty.com/pdf/hs900/HS900-76.pdf

Is this why I saw no appreciable benefit? I replaced what was there with the exact replacment, which likely means the old ones were there since it was a coal system.

Patrick

nicholas bonham-carter

changing the vacuum

the hoffman 75 vacuum is the same as the standard 75, except for a small disk under the cap at the top. unscrew the cap and take the disk out. if it had been a vacuum system, then that would tell me that low pressures [sometimes 2 ounces] will be even more important with this system.--nbc

Paul Fredricks_9

Yeah, as stated the near boiler piping is wrong. If you can download a manual for the boiler it should show you how it should have been done. Dan's "Lost Art of Steam Heating" will show it too.

Asbestos: Some controversy if it is dangerous to leave or better removed. If you ever plan on selling the house, get rid of it.

Main vents: You need to calculate how much you need. "Lost Art" can help you there too.

It's hard to tell from the pictures, is there a return pipe? in other words, at the end of the mains is there a pipe that drops down to the floor and comes back to the boiler? If not, this may be a counter flow system. In that case you need a lot of pitch in the mains, going up as you move away from the boiler.

The copper looks like its all on the water end of the boiler. Should be OK to leave it there.

All of this needs to be fixed before you start focusing on individual radiators.

nicholas bonham-carter

testing a cold rad

you can make a test to see if you have a water-lock blocking the flow of steam to the cold room. you must have an assistant at the thermostat to be able to turn the thermostat off at a moments' notice.

turn the stat up to max, with the air vent off. listen close to the opening for gurgling sounds of air bubbling through water. be aware that steam filling a room can remove wallpaper in minutes, so be careful to turn the boiler off before this happens, and reinstall the vent, after the test. i state the obvious because i have "been there". once you suspect a low spot trapping water and steam, the next job is to find it, and correct it!!--nbc

Unknown

another boiler

Another boiler piped 100 percent wrong... Since you said you brought the books, they will show you why your present boiler is piped wrong. You will need to get a 100 percent BOILER pro on this. Where are you located? I do like the deep basement !

bob young

all wrong

WHEN you see it piped like that , good chance it is probably sized wrong , too.

Patrick McGrath

boiler pro

I am in Western New York in a suburb of Rochester, NY. Any suggestions?

Pat

Unknown

ahhh Rochester

Went to NTID at RIT .. Got my PhD* there ( Party hard Degree)
Any true boiler pros there?

an old wrench puller

Call:

Buckpitt & Company Inc
88 University Ave
Rochester, NY 14605
585-454-7474

Ask them for a recomedation for a steam service company. Bought many boilers, burners, parts from these people over the years. Good people.

Patrick McGrath

thanks all...so far so good

Ok, thanks to all of your input, I was able to find a reliable supplier of parts for my steam system (Buckpit on 88 University Ave in Rochester) as well as a good steam guy or two (Dave Hines of Genesee Heating, normally only commercial heating unless you have done your homework, he takes pity on you...especially single pipe steam folks). I replaced the mains with non-vacuum valves (if anyone needs two Hoffman 76s, give me an email. I am out over $400, but the help here is worth a deal). I am also going to put some Macon thermostatic vents on the most active radiators to hopefully kick some of that steam upstairs.

No more bang bang! By the way, we found that I do have a hybrid system, as two of the radiators are two pipe (they are quite close to the boiler). One has a vent, and the other is a crazy small one that heats a tiny bathroom. The original heating company was calling that a "pass-through". Well, as long as they were referring to my checking account, that was accurate.

Thanks for the help. It was invaluable. I would give the second guy who looked at my system some recognition, but he kept making tons of mistakes (at least he was humble enough to admit it), as he was more familiar with two pipe steam.

I am still unsure of whether or not my boiler is correctly sized, but we are sure that the piping is incorrect (both the setup and the 2" copper used). Does anyone have a link to finding out the EDR? We do have at least two missing radiators, if not three.

Can anyone give me some advice on whether or not to upgrade to a vaporstat?

This was the best. Thanks again!!!

Patrick McGrath

Yesr

Dave Hines. Genesee Heating. 585-244-1390.

I have Penfield Hots within 500 feet of my office, so I can have a "garbage" (insert knockoff of Nick's) plate without getting in my car. Luckily, I haven't taken advantage of it, otherwise I'd be 300 lbs. I do smell the homefries and onions on the fryer, though...old times were fun.

nicholas bonham-carter

vaporstat

yes by all means upgrade to a vaporstat [and a low pressure 0-15 oz. gauge, gaugestore.com], so you can keep your pressure at about 8 oz. the 0-16 oz. model is best, but 0-4 psi is still better than the standard pressuretrol.

as i said before, you can still use those hoffman vacuum vents on your system, by removing the disk under the threaded cap. they are then the the same as hoffman 75's.--nbc

Jamie Hall

Patrick! Sorry about that

somehow I didn't pick up on your question about the plaster wrap -- the second one in your reply, Patrick, is the one I would go for...