use condensate as baseboard heat

[Deleted User]

i got lost right here;
You should be able to use your existing baseboard for the new loop, and just run a new wet return parallel to it.
can you say that in another way? describe a 'picture'?

shawn indrerd

wet return as heating element

when i was redoing my basement, as many ignorant homeowners do, i assumed my uninsulated mains would provide enough heat for the 900 or so square feet of space. my heating guy told me it would not work and recommended that since it is a good idea to replace my wet return line anyways, he would use copper instead of steel, and put in a few sections of baseboard fins in the bathroom, bedrooms, and play area, and the condensate (which should be hovering around 200 degrees) would provide the heat.
to make a long story short- it doesn't work. even after my heat has run through a complete cycle about 45 minute to an hour, the parts farthest from the boiler are at best warm to the touch, (but not generating heat) and the parts closer to the boiler are cool to the touch.
at this point pretty much all available wall space is taken up by these useless baseboard "heaters" and my basement is still pretty cold.
i'm curious, is this commonly done? anyone here do this where it actually works? after the fact i was informed that he had never actually done this by anyone else he just knew that it was "in theory" suppose to work.
any suggestion to make the existing "experiment" work?

Jamie Hall

Ah...

well, I can see where he was coming from. And the idea is attractive! However, in a steam heating system which is working right, most of the radiation will not be completely filled with steam most of the time, and the condensate returning will not be that far above the temperature at the bottom of the radiators -- which won't be much above room temperature. And from your description of the temperature of the returns, sounds to me like you system is working right -- so be happy about that!

Bottom line... I have no bright ideas as to how to make this work!

Dan C.

I have done hot water zones off of the boiler and it works well. I have never tried it using just a wet return and I wouldn't try it either. I can't see how it would work if your not circulating water through it when you want heat. Gravity condensate return water is never going to circulate fast enough to heat the room. There are diagrams somewhere on this site on how to do it correctly.

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Dan C.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/heating_howcome6.cfm

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Steamhead (in transit)

If

there's a lot of radiation on the main, as in a multi-story building, and the basement load isn't much, it can work. There has to be enough condensate to heat the return radiation, and you won't find this in the average house.

A hot-water loop off the steam boiler is the solution, and will also make the basement its own zone. We have several such setups out there. Make sure you use the right circulator- nothing less than a bronze 3-piece will last. Do NOT use a wet-rotor type, even a bronze one.

You should be able to use your existing baseboard for the new loop, and just run a new wet return parallel to it.

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[Deleted User]

now that explains it perfectly

and i wonder if his system has a circ, or was the guy just thinking that he could use the condensate by it's gravity return, vs having the piping completely filled. and, if it's just coming back as partially filled, no pump, what's that doing to the copper pipe?

Steamhead (in transit)

Simple

leave the baseboard where it is. Run a new return line for the steam back to the boiler, bypassing the baseboard, and new piping from the boiler to feed the baseboard.

You'll also need an aquastat on the boiler to keep it from making steam when only the HW loop is calling for heat.

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[Deleted User]

simple - gotcha

but since he already has the piping for the baseboard in place, wouldn't just running a new, parallel wet return do?
and, is cu ok for a cond return?

shawn indrerd

no circ

the guy assumed that gravity would be enough. the copper pipe is hot at the the beginning (where it meets the main), but is pretty cool by the time it meets the boiler.

shawn indrerd

what to do?

what u are recommending is running 3 pipes along this wall. would it be possible to continue using this line as a condensate return, and just run the loop from the boiler with it's own thermostat, and use a "T" at the end to add the basement heat to it? or does the condensate return have to be a separate pipe?

shawn indrerd

simple?!?!?!

you say it's simple. but to me i see$$$$.
this will entail running a new wet return, and a new feed line for the baseboard, besides the pump and aquastat, and all necessary wiring. sound more like a BIG JOB then "simple" to me.

Steamhead (in transit)

You do

want it to work, don't you?

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[Deleted User]

yeah, not so simple for a ho,

and it would cost you some $$$$

talk the guy that goofed it into doing what steamy said, and have him eat the cost. after all, after the fact, he didn't deliver what you paid for. and there's always judge judy

Unknown

Good question

What if ......... you added a circulator at the boiler to pump hot water to where the return pipe drops down from the steam main ? Teed in below the water line ? That way you could keep the baseboard as a steam return and only need one extra pipe .

But I gotta know . What size baseboard was used ? 3/4 piping ?

[Deleted User]

hey steam

what would happen if a pump and astat was added to the existing line? wouldn't the water also carry the cond? or would it push the water up the return also?

shawn indrerd

same idea

the guy who installed this in the first place had a similar plan. i just don't trust him to do it after screwing me by installing this without knowing it would work. so i'm curious......as this would no doubt save money, but if it won't work well then it's just adding bad money on top of bad money.
i think it was 3/4 in baseboard, but i would have to check and measure when i get home.

Unknown

Don't mind me

I was just thinking out loud

When you get home , find out what size boiler it is also . But to tell you the truth , 3/4 is undersized for just about any steam return . I think your best bet is to bite the bullet , make the baseboard it's own zone with 2 dedicated pipes and run a proper sized steam return .

Steamhead (in transit)

That

would screw up the water levels in the return. A separate pair of pipes is needed for the baseboard, properly tied in at the boiler.

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shawn indrerd

not sure about boiler size

however, the baseboard is 1".

Charlie from wmass

but it comes down to not getting what you didn't pay for. seldom are there many free heat ideas that actually work.

The Boiler Dr.

Steamhead ....

What about using a small heat exchanger at the boiler and connecting the other side to the base board loop?
I installed something similar to use the boiler water for preheating DHW to increase system capacity where they had undersized tanks.
Just a thought

Steamhead (in transit)

That could be done

but it would involve some extra components- the HX itself, fill valve, air separator, expansion tank- all the things you'd need for a stand-alone HW loop, that the condensate-fed loop would not need.

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shawn indrerd

TO Steamhead

my boiler already feeds my hot water tank, so it has a coil and expansion tank, (and lots of other things i know nothing about). would that make any difference?

Steamhead (in transit)

Probably not the same

you're probably running potable (drinking) water thru the coil and storing it in a tank. The expansion tank would then be used to keep excess pressure from building up as the tank is heated.

You do NOT want to mix boiler water with potable water. No way, no how.

If you're not sure, take some pics and post them here. We should be able to ID what you have.

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[Deleted User]

not No way, no how!

no-body gets to see the wizard!
well then how do you know he exists?
er, uh, bu-bu-bu