Chicago 3-flat, Steam boiler - replacement or alternatives?

Mark Custis

Toaster heat?

Yikes!!!

Not an opption unless all your eggs are in the electric provider's basket.

Paul Flory

old Weil-McLain steam boiler - options?

Hi all,

The Weil-McLain steam boiler (gas) in my building seems to be on its last leg - a leak has developed (the concrete underneath gets wet & has cracked up, though I haven't pinpointed the leak in the boiler) and the water level in the glass gauge reliably drops after a few hours upon manually feeding more water. This 100-yr old, 3-story brick building has a one-pipe steam system with radiators.

Anyway, I've started contemplating what my options are... e.g., get a new steam boiler; or install separate heating systems in the 3 floors (unlikely - don't have the money or time); or other options, such as retro-fit some other heating system in place of the pipes and radiators.

I'm hoping for a far more efficient system in order to save on the monthly gas bill, and even take advantage of the new Federal Tax incentives for Energy Star compliant heating systems (2009 Economic Stimulus programs). However, I don't see steam boiler systems with very high efficiency ratings (compared to newer heating methods) so the Federal Tax incentive idea may be a pipe dream (no pun intended).

The boiler must be 10-20+ yrs old and rather beat-up looking since I inherited it.


Anyone have suggestions about what to do?

Idea #1:
Is there any way to retro-fit an electric-based radiator system into the existing "footprint" of the pipes and radiators already in the building? For example, replace the existing radiators with oil-filled, electric radiators? Or would that be absurdly expensive to operate, even compared to steam?

Idea #2:
Are there steam-based condensing boilers that would work in this application? I've been reading about these newer, ultra-efficient systems, but can't find any that seem to work with one-pipe steam systems. They seem popular for water-based (like radiant floor) applications. They claim up to 98% efficiency under the right conditions, and so very appealing. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensing_boiler

Thanks for any feedback! I'm really interested in a cost-effective, reliable solution.


Paul

nicholas bonham-carter

leaking boiler

if you have a return buried underground, that pipe may be the leaker in this case, and may be able to be repiped above the floor. why not get a copy of "the lost art of steam heating" here and become more knowlegable/able to deal with installers.

check the boiler for a leak by over-filling it to the top of the relief valve, and wait for a few hours, to see if water leaks from the boiler sections. as i said it may not be the boiler, but the return piping. my boiler went 35 years before the end so you may have more time left "on the meter".

as you get it back up and running-leak fixed,etc. go through the deferred maintainance, and keep the pressure down below 12 ounces, and install plenty of MAIN line air vents. you will be surprised how well these old steam systems can perform, and much of the work can be done by you!--nbc

Steamhead (in transit)

I was looking at that tax credit

it seems to be structured so very few people can take advantage of it. Typical government, doesn't want to part with our money.......

Condensing boilers are for hot-water only. High-efficiency 90%+ boilers are possible on steam, but no American manufacturer offers them.

But it is definitely possible to improve a steam system so it uses less fuel. We have customers who have documented savings of over 30% while enjoying better comfort. All you need to do is get the basics right.

The most efficient gas-fired steam boiler will be a wet-base, power-burner unit rather than an atmospheric type. The difference is often 6-7%.

Tell us more about your system- one-pipe or two-pipe? Which W-M boiler do you have now?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Flory

Thanks for the reply, Nicholas.

To respond to your points:

I've poked around and haven't found any buried (underground) pipes.

Many have recommended the book, so I've checked the Chicago & nearby libraries for "The lost art of steam heating" - no dice yet, but I'll likely buy it.. I find the topic fascinating, especially with the colorful phrases (water hammer) and physics involved.

I tried the "over-filling" test over the weekend and indeed found wetness under the boiler. I haven't braved disassembling the unit to find the source of the leak. I'm not an HVAC expert, but mechanically inclined enough to do it... will likely wait til worst of winter passes in case I foul it up

I've read everything here - http://www.heatinghelp.com/steam_problems.cfm - great excerpts from Holohan's "A Pocketful of Steam Problems."

Regarding pressure, I've never seen the pressure gauge ever move, though the unit of measure is probably too gross (from what I read) -- the lowest number is 5 PSI.

Paul

Paul Flory

Toaster heating system

Laughing... yeah, I didn't expect much mileage out of that idea. Not until I can generate my own electricity from wind, solar, or my own in-home nuclear fission power system

I'm groping for alternatives to what I inherited but the constraints are overwhelming. I can't (yet) gut rehab the building for individual forced-air systems (for a number of reasons). Retro-fitting in a 2-pipe hot water system for nominal efficiency improvement isn't terribly appealing.

If I had a way to entertain a geo-thermal-assisted system with the current radiant (steam) system, that would be interesting, but gut feeling is initial costs are extreme and would be a total custom job.

The thought experiment - exploring options - has been fun, but I don't see simple replacement systems.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Things don't sound too good for your boiler....

if you did the overfill leak test. As steamhead said, pictures are very useful. A boiler only 10 to 15 years old and failing makes me think there are some things not right in the system or you're just unlucky.

Converting to electric would be a really bad idea....we (I am near Chicago)have the lowest natural gas prices in the country (probably the world) and some of the highest electric prices...and they are going to be going higher soon. One pipe steam when properly set up and maintained is quite efficient. I replaced a steamer in a Northside Chicago 3 flat a couple years ago and the resident engineer loves it. The system is nearly silent, heats evenly, and only needs about 4 ounces of pressure to heat every radiator completely.

Beware of the AFUE number on any piece of equipment. These efficiency numbers leave out a number of factors. A couple real obvious ones are they assume heat wasted into the surrounding space is usable heat (its usually pretty warm around typical boilers) and completely ignore electrical use. Most steam boilers use very little electricity, while all other types of system usually use much more...especially forced air. High efficiency condensing boilers (90% plus)almost all use much more electricity than there less efficient (80%) counterparts.

If replacing, I would definitely look at the much more efficient power burner boilers that are wet back and wet base. There is very little wasted heat and the burners usually are much more efficient. I am firing up a little Slantfin (wetback, wetbase) Intrepid boiler with Power flame modulating burner out in Aurora this week in a building going for LEED Certification. I also have 3 more written up for estimates.

I am now serving Chicago Metro, with a current project up north with a condo association to get thier fuel bills under control and to balance the heating in the building.
If you'd like, give me a call.

Boilerpro

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Flory

? High-efficiency 90%+ steam boilers ?

Crud.. that condensing boiler technology sounds interesting, despite being a bit younger (shorter track record, and less qualified contractors I suspect). But doesn't apply to steam, eh?

Where did you find 90%+ steam boilers? I've been googling around a bit and don't recall seeing anything like that.

Regarding Fed tax credits on HVAC, I saw this page:
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3

To qualify, it seems I'd have to get a steam boiler that meets this requirement for a kick-back of 30% of cost, up to $1,500:
Gas, Propane, or Oil Hot Water Boiler: AFUE >= 90

If I *have* to go with steam, I'd love to get the credits granted I can find a 90+ AFUE system


By the way, I found this info on the boiler cover:

Weil-McLain
Boiler Model # EGH-85-PI
Series # 2

Output: 280,000 BTU hour
Net I-B-R output:
Water M.B.H. 243.5


Max inlet gas pressure 13 w.c.
Min inlet gas pressure 5 w.c.

Manifold gas press. 3.5 w.c.

Steam Sq ft: 875

Max w.p. steam 15
water 50 psi
min. relief valve cap 280 lb/hr or mbh


Thanks,
Paul

nicholas bonham-carter

leaking boiler

if the leak is below the waterline, there is a possibility that adding...white pepper...oatmeal...flax seed...or commercial stop leak will get you to the end of the winter. during the spring, you will be able to look at the cure. i would consult with a knowlegable steam man locally about the temporary sealing, as it will need a good skimming after adding these ingredients to the mix.

without knowing the particulars of your situation, i would guess that you can have new sections put in the old boiler. however, do a radiation study to see if your old boiler was the right size to begin with. as you will read in dan's book, the boiler size is calculated by radiator sizes-NOT building heat loss. assuming it is the right size, when you have it repaired, make sure to get a vaporstat, low pressure gauge and plenty of main line air vents on the steam lines. you will be amazed at the difference in comfort and economy. some thought as to thermostat adjustment/location would be good too.

also make sure that the steam piping is correct, and you will never regret your decision to repair rather than replace. in repairing the old boiler, you may also avoid some code required changes which would add to the cost of the installation, such as chimney re-lining.--nbc

ttekushan_3

what model Weil McLain?

If its a MGB series, I can pretty much guarantee that it leaks from the joints between the sections and there's a very good chance that one or more of the sections are leaking at the top seam. End sections seem most susceptible for some reason.

Like others have said, heating with electric isn't a very good idea. Frankly, the steam system you already own can be quite economical on the scale you have. The bigger the structure the better steam looks.

Get the right boiler and replace radiator vents in a proportional fashion to assure even heating and I think you will be pleased with the outcome. Since you have an interest in how well a heating system should work, then its clear that a new boiler will be properly maintained from day one.

I've taken a liking to the Smith 28HE which is a power burner design which the company claims will pay back the difference in first cost between the 28HE and an average boiler in about one year in energy savings. Its also built like a tank.

If it were my building I'd be tempted to go with a low mass steel boiler because standby losses are so low. Of course I know I'd be taking care of it too. Unfortunately, such boilers are usually "chemical dependent" since they're typically a water tube design where water quality has be be maintained fastidiously. IF there's a chance the boiler will be getting somewhat less than optimal maintenance, then cast iron (like the smith and others) is the way to go.

BTW, those 90% units that you refer to will not tolerate neglect either. Keep that in mind. Its easy to criticize that old steamer until you realize that its probably one step from catastrophic failure and operating inefficiently, yet its still providing warmth to the building. For example, the latest MGB series I looked at had failed with water leaking both from below and steam coming out of the giant rust holes in the jacket. It was still heating the building, and no tenant was aware that there was a problem at all. This sort of thing is unimaginable with a high efficiency piece of equipment.

-Terry

Paul Flory

model is Weil-McLain EGH-85-PI Series # 2

Terry,

Thanks for the feedback & info. I'll read up on the Smith models.

Here's what I found on the boiler:

==============================

Weil-McLain Boiler Model EGH-85-PI Series # 2

Output: 280,000 BTU hour

Net I=B=R output:

Water M.B.H. 243.5

Max inlet gas pressure 13 w.c.

Min inlet gas pressure 5 w.c.

Manifold gas press. 3.5 w.c.

Steam Sq ft: 875

Max w.p. steam 15

water 50 psi

min. relief valve cap 280 lb/hr or mbh

==============================

I haven't read about "low mass steel boilers" that you mentioned (with low standby losses but usually "chemical dependent"). Can you offer a link to such a boiler or info about this type of boiler? Sounds interesting...


Thanks,
Paul

Paul Flory

thanks!

Great points about gas vs electric prices in this area.

I'm going to have to do some more reading to better understand your recommendation - I'm not familiar with these terms: "wet back" and "wet base".

I've looked over your ad & appreciate the level of detail. Might be calling in the not-too-distant future

Paul

Steamhead (in transit)

Two companies

Gasmaster in Canada and Hoval in the U.K. have marketed high-efficiency steamers for larger commercial jobs. They don't use condensing technology, but somehow recirculate the exhaust gases to recapture more of the heat. There's no reason we couldn't do that here for residential and small commercial applications.

The W-M EGH is your basic atmospheric gas boiler. The power-burner W-M in that size is the 3-80, at 867 square feet EDR. It has an AFUE rating of 80%, same as the EGH series, but I suspect they didn't account for losses from the base.

Slant/Fin makes their Intrepid in some larger sizes too, the TR-50 is rated 796 square feet and 83.4% AFUE on oil, and can be fired with gas too.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steamhead (in transit)

Dynatherm

has one, the 2CT series. Size-wise this is right in your range. Never installed one, but the local Carlin rep loves his Dynatherm.

http://www.dynathermboiler.com/images/2ct.pdf

Another disadvantage to a steel boiler is it can't always be taken apart enough to get it thru the usual basement door.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ttekushan_3

EDR, DYNATHERM, STEEL BOILERS

Paul, I haven't seen EGH's failing yet, but they certainly can. I think its important to get a cross reference guide for radiator EDR (that "square feet steam" referred to) to be assured that you have the correct sized boiler. If a steam boiler is not large enough, it will run continuously and not fully heat the building. Heat is often uneven. Measuring radiators is a must. Don't go by the current boiler's size.

Steamhead, I'll check out that Dynatherm. I'm not familiar with it. Sounds like an eminently practical choice.

With regard to steel boilers, they have a very low water content, a characteristic which is part and parcel of a low mass boiler. As such, a small condensate receiver with a boiler feed pump is absolutely necessary. A 20 gallon simplex BFP should be OK.

For general interest, here are a few interesting steel boilers. The only one I have direct experience with is the Bryan flexible tube boiler. Their efficiency numbers are decent, but I have an idea that if they had and AFUE rating, it would be quite high due to the speed with which they heat up and their low thermal mass. The buildings I've seen with these boilers always seem to have very reasonable fuel usage for their amount of heat loss. Keep in mind that your boiler is not that large so the 28HE smith is not available that small. They have other models.

Look only at the "low pressure" or 15 PSI models.

Bryan DR series flexible water tube type. 350,000 btu min. About 32" wide, 1,150 pounds, including burner, I think. You move it without the burner attached. Larger models can be delivered broken down.

Triad system 300 vertical fire tube type. Check out the numbers. And its 800 pounds, should fit through average doorway.

Hurst Boiler cyclone series boilers. Finned vessel type You'd be looking at about 10HP. Not sure what the turndown ratio is. Looks expensive, but I've never priced one so I suppose I shouldn't assume...

For grins and giggles, though efficiency ratings are nowhere to be found: Parker boiler 103 series bent water tube type, atmospheric burners only. Or the Kompact series with the integral vented condensate receiver and boiler feed pump: Parker 103 series Kompact with receiver and pump.

These are simply units that have caught my eye. Their practicality for your purposes is subject to judgement, but each boiler is available as a low pressure heating boiler. As always, piping arrangements at the boiler must conform to "best practices" if the heating system is to receive high quality dry steam.

-Terry

nicholas bonham-carter

boiler replacement

i am sure you have many things to think about with the immenent replacement of your boiler, but i would like to add that a gravity return system is always my preference. an auto-fill/condensate pump can be a source of trouble later. it can often mask other problems such as leaks, and will make them worse. my system is 3 times the capacity of yours, with 54 radiators, and no pump. i did have to extend the water capacity slightly, but nothing is powered, and can easily be disconnected from the system. as a result, i can have a battery-backup running the system the next time a tree limb hits the powerline.


why not see if your boiler is still made, or has parts available. your fuel bills may go down enough, so that even without the high efficiency rebate the expence will be easier to bear.--nbc

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Wetback, Wetbase.....

Refers to the fact that the sides of the combustion chamber are filled with water as is the bottom of the combustion chamber. This only leaves the small end where the burner is mounted not having heat transfer to the water. This end is well insulated to reflect the flame's heat back to the other surfaces. By nearly completing surrounding the flame with water, very little heat is wasted into the boiler room or down into the floor.

Your current boiler, which is still in production, only has water above the flame, and little or no insulation below the burners or on the sides. There's alot of heat wasted with this design. However, it does not show up in the AFUE ratings since the heat is wasted into the basement or boiler room, so it is considered usable heat. The Afue numbers on the WM EG/ EGH boilers are quite good, as are the combustion efficiency numbers I get when tested. However, if you take out the losses steamhead refers to, efficiency looks pretty dismal. In addition, your boiler is a considered a small commercial model for the purpose of government ratings, so it is not equipped with a stack damper as standard equipment. The stack damper is a device that closes the connection to the chimney so heat from the boiler does not escape up the chimney during the off cycle. However, this heat is dumped into the boiler room instead. Better than up the flue, but not as good as keeping it in the boiler or sending it up to the heated spaces.

I would definitely look at the amount of radiaion you have and your actual building heat loss. That's a pretty big boiler you have there. The one I installed in that 3 flat (actually it is 2 up and a garden apt) was only rated at 140,000 input and 358 sq ft of steam. If you know your heat loads you may be able to do some radiator swapping to get your radiation to better match your current heating needs.

In addition, and this goes against popular opinion and standard industry practice, I do not believe steam boilers need to be matched to the radiation. A properly balanced system that does not use setback, can operate very efficiently and evenly with a boiler smaller than the radiation. I have seen a number of systems, including one pipe steam systems, that have been operating for at least a decade this way very well. However, don't "undersize" the boiler unless balance the system properly.

For improved efficiency and better comfort, you may want to add Thermostatic radiator valves to your radiators. You may only really need to add it to some in areas that tend to overheat(typically from lots of sunlight). Since these valves shut off the vents on the radiator when the space reachs thier temperature setting, steam no longer enters.

Back down in the boiler room, once these valves are closed, there is no longer the need for as many btu's at the boiler. Also standard boiler sizing adds 33% to the radiation load to help the system piping heat up quickly and compensate for some heat lost from the piping. Once the piping heats up most of these btu's are not needed (the piping should be well insulated if you ever want reasonable fuel bills). Most boilers, like your current boiler, just keep running full bore. There are some boilers of that same design that allow the fuel input to be reduced when the system needs less btu's, but they do it pretty inefficiently,though it is better than having no reduced fire. Typically they are larger btu models than yours.

However, small wetback, wetbase boilers can be equipped with burners that modulate the btu output according to load or at least back off the btu output in steps and maintian or increase efficiency. The goal of reducing the input when possible, is to reduce or eliminate burner on /off cylces, which inherently reduce seasonal efficiency. This modulation of input is a very big part of the energy savings the 90%+ efficiency hot water boilers. My experience with designing and installing step fired multiple boilers that replaced on/off boilers of similiar rated efficiencies, has shown significant savings.

I know of two burner manufacturers that offer these types of burners for smaller boilers , both with very good reputations. One of them, Weishaupt, just located its US headquarters in Chicago. The other, PowerFlame, is the burner I will be starting up tommorrow on a small 200,000 btu input boiler.

Just filling in some blanks and something else to chew on for now.

Take a look at the Slantfin Intrepid sales brochure...it shows the Wetback, wetbase design very clearly.
the flame goes inside the chamber inside the boiler. Then compare this to the picture labeled "cast iron construction" in the brochure for the Weil Mclain EG boiler. That opening in the bottom of the boiler boiler castings is where the flame goes. It pretty easy to see which design is going to have less waste.


Boilerpro

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I see EGH's failing regularly in my area....

both hot water and steam, often at about 15 years of age. The steam units typically rot out or fail at the gaskets, and the hot water units tend to crack at the top of the legs or start leaking at the gaskets. As is typical, almost none are sized properly and most are not installed properly.

Boilerpro

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ttekushan_3

egh's in my neighborhood

must have been done all around the same time by one company. They're all about the same age, 12 yrs, and, as you said, they're all incorrectly sized. Piping bare minimum but okay I guess. They're still working for now. And its a small miracle that I ever got called to perform water side and fire side maintenance at all considering the (non) spending characteristics of the property owners. I'll hear from them again when the floor's wet.

"Nothing saves money like deferred maintenance!!" There must be a property owners' guidebook somewhere that says that... I know too many who identify with it strenuously.

EDIT: Present company excluded, of course!

Paul Flory

Took the covers off & took photos of leaking boiler...

I had some free time & finally, for the first time, removed the covers from my old boiler (described in this thread) and found more wetness. Here are a few photos.

http://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcxkzfzp_53cqxpbndq&revision=_latest&hgd=1
link to photos

By the way - what is that white insulation on the pipes (made of)? Where can I buy it?

Thanks,
Paul

Unknown

Asbestos

That white pipe insulation is air cell asbestos. Not something you really want to disturb! It has not been available for sale in years.

The modern replacement is fiberglass pipe insulation which appears similar and performs the same function.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I'd say its time for new.....

And with a new boiler, correcting some piping.. The supplies off the top of the boiler look like they are the wrong size and piped completely incorrectly. The return at the back of the boiler also looks incorrect....too high for this type of boiler. Both of these piping problems are probably running up your fuel use and causing less than even heating. The leaking sections certainly aren't helping either.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Flory

had to ask -- what's the ballpark $$ for new boilers...?

Say I knew someone that was looking to replace an aging
boiler.. say a Weil-McLain EGH-85 model that has an output somewhere in the neighborhood of 280,000 BTU/hour.. what's the ballpark cost for replacing one of those?

OK, that someone is me, and I realize it may be uncouth to ask about pricing in this forum, but I'd love to get a sense for the magnitude of such a project. It would help prioritize & budget among other building projects.

Round numbers or ranges appreciated... even just for the hardware (the boiler itself).

Best,

Paul

Unknown

dependings on

You won't get pricing here but, I'll tell ya if Cubs wins, cost will go up....

Jamie Hall

sorry...

we don't do pricing, for a whole bunch of mostly good reasons. What we can and will tell you, though is...

If you get the steam system back to where it should be... (which isn't that hard)

and

install a good, modern boiler properly sized to the system...

You will save a bundle of money, and it will be less expensive than replacing it with something new and different. Even hot water...

Paul Flory

I know... may as well ask a magician how his tricks work )

Thanks Jamie.

I really didn't expect anyone to price out a replacement for me, as that typically gets people into trouble. I deal with sales folks at my company... and learned early that pricing is nearly a taboo topic.

As the (clueless) consumer, I'm trying to set my expectations, at least get a 't-shirt size' in terms of cost. Like shopping for a car (yes, a poor analogy in many respects, but bear with it) we can go into it with some preconception of what it's going to cost.

Just for fun, cars.com reports:

___Hyundai Accent SE 2009:_____$11,000 - $16,785

___Honda Civic 2008:___________$16,000 - 30,000

___Ferrari F430 (2009):________$217,310 - $228,447

I suppose back in the day, turn of the 20th century, one-pipe steam heating systems were more a commodity than automobiles )

-Paul

Paul Flory

direct vent gas furnaces/heaters...?

To kick around another thought - a colleague mentioned he had used Direct-Vent Wall Furnaces in his Vermont property (not sure if it was primary or secondary heating). A Monitor heater, in his case. http://www.monitorproducts.com/products/roomheaters/gas/gf3800

Have these ever been used to replace a central heating system, such as the steam boiler I've been chronicling in this thread?

I can imagine all kinds of pros & cons, many related to the fact that these are individually-controlled to occupants' liking. But in terms of being generally feasible, is this something anyone's ever seen deployed in 3-story or similar building? Gut feeling says it's a bad idea, but not sure why, other than I don't have experience in these matters.

Also, it would be a ton of new plumbing and electrical work, even though existing steam pipe routes might be used to a degree.

Thx,
Paul

nicholas bonham-carter

priceless

why not get a quotation for either a boiler section[s] replacement, or a complete replacement? just make sure the connected radiation is totaled and matched to the replacement boiler [or the present one]. maybe there are some ways of making the job easier for the installer [and cheaper for you]: delivering the new sections to the basement, or removing the old remains.--nbc

Jamie Hall

You know,

I've always liked Japanese cars, but sometimes they are a little overpriced, perhaps...