Church Steam Problem

Jamie Hall

I have a Hoffman system, intact (believe it or not -- only thing changed is the boiler) exactly as described. Those crossover traps are critical -- if they aren't there, they need to be (anyone on the Wall is welcome to come take a look, by the way).

And pressure is critical with this system. It must, repeat must, be kept below 12 ounces per square inch. Otherwise the differential loop will trip (it's meant to on high :) pressure) to ensure that the condensate gets back to the boiler -- but that means that briefly the steam no longer gets to the radiators; too high a pressure and the system might not work at all.

As Steamhead says -- lose the pump. Make sure things are piped and trapped right, and the wet return(s) can go right to the bottom of the Hartford loop. Works fine.

John Ryan

Church Steam Problem

This system doesn't build any pressure and the burner just runs and runs. Help?

Steve Garson_2

John:

Can you send a photo of the boiler?

There are a variety of things needed to diagnose your problem. First thing that we'll need to know is if the boiler is too small for the EDR, which is the square feet of radiator load.

Here's some needed information:

1. The boiler brand and model number.

2. The firing rate of the burner.

3. The square footage of radiation, which can be calculated by measuring the dimensions of each radiator section and the number of sections. There is reference material on this site about this.

4. What is the pressure setting on the pressuretrol of the boiler?

5. How long does it take for the radiators to get hot after the boiler starts up?

6. How long does it take for the end of the steam main to get hot after the boiler starts?

7. Send some photos of the main venting on your system.

8. Where are you located?

Without this information, my initial "guess" is that your boiler is underfired, so it is like a simmering kettle instead of a vigorously boiling one. So pressure is never reached.

If you don't have the time to do the above, find a pro on this web site. You boiler shouldn't be running so long, even on the coldest nights.

Steve
Boston

nicholas bonham-carter

no pressure

i think that a good low pressure gauge would show some pressure [not much is needed-12 ounces]. i would suggest that your son-in-law check the pressure, and the venting as mentioned. if the air cannot get out, then the steam cannot get in. a good low pressure gauge can be bought at gaugestore.com [0-2 psi]. at the same time a rough diagram of the pipes could be drawn up, to make diagnosis easier.

i suspect the water may be dirty, and may need to be skimmed. in addition, i suspect that the steam pressure is too high; and i would doubt the functionality of the main line vents. i do not see a steam pro registered for your area, so you and your son-in-law will become steam savvy.

just remember that all of us here started with limited knowlege-just the need to make our systems run as originally installed. now you can tap the experiences of 600 man years of steam/hydronic expertise!--nbc

Steve Garson_2

Also: buy the "Steamy Deal" of steam books. They are easy reading for the the lay person and literally will tell you almost everything you need to know about steam heat.

Jamie Hall

Be of good cheer

Deacon -- we'll get this thing licked. Do furnish us the information which Steve (?) asked for, and we'll be much further ahead. I too kind of think that the boiler may be undersized -- but we'll get to that.

Measuring the 'EDR' -- radiating surface -- which is there is going to be very important. As was noted, there are references here; mostly what you need is what kind of radiators do you have (how many columns in each section, for instance), how high they are, how wide front to back, and how many sections. For each one. Then, we also need to know whether there is one pipe or two attached to each radiator.

Hang in there!

Au Sable Forks is kind of up there... I don't see anyone listed here in that area, but we'll manage.

nicholas bonham-carter

one more thought

the boiler might be under fired because of a faulty gas meter or regulator, or in the case of oil, some other problem.--nbc

John Ryan_2

Answers for church problem

1. The boiler brand and model number.
Weil McLain 588-S

2. The firing rate of the burner.
9.1gph

3. The square footage of radiation, which can be calculated by measuring the dimensions of each radiator section and the number of sections. There is reference material on this site about this.
Approx. 2100 EDR, 520,000 BTU

4. What is the pressure setting on the pressuretrol of the boiler?
2 PSI

5. How long does it take for the radiators to get hot after the boiler starts up?
Got to measure - will provide later

6. How long does it take for the end of the steam main to get hot after the boiler starts?
About half an hour

7. Send some photos of the main venting on your system.
Will take and provide later
8. Where are you located?
Near Plattsburgh, NY

John Ryan_2

Original system had a low return pipe that went into bottom of boiler, now the new piping goes into a tank with a pump, and when the system runs, there is steam that comes out a vent pipe from the tank.
Pictures to Follow
Wouldn't a boiler with burner on low fire act like a too small boiler?

Steamhead (in transit)

One problem I see right away

is the "tank with a pump on it".

With the original setup, the air was vented out in the system and the low return line (the "wet return") was filled with water. That kept the steam where it belonged.

But someone decided to sell the church a tank, so there is no more standing water in the return line. So the steam pushes thru the return into the tank.

There are three possible solutions:

1- Install "float-and-thermostatic" traps on all the drips from steam mains to the return line (one big trap at the tank is NOT acceptable)

2- build a "false water line" in the boiler room to fill the returns with water again

3- get rid of the tank and go back to gravity return.

My favorite is 3, since that would eliminate all those extra moving parts which will need to be serviced every so often.

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Mad Dog_2

Where is the Church located?

Perhaps we can help. Mad Dog

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John Ryan

more pics

Here are some more pictures

Steamhead (in transit)

That's a Hoffman \"Controlled Heat\" Vapor system

which has a later-style Differential Loop.

The boiler install looks better than many we've seen. But I still question the need for that pump and tank. The Differential Loop is there in part to make sure the water can return to the boiler. It has no moving parts, so why is the pump needed?

This system should have traps on all the radiators, and also "crossover" traps connecting the end of each steam main to the high ("dry") return. The crossovers act as air vents, and if they or the radiator traps fail, they can pass steam into the dry returns. From there the steam will go into the tank.

The steam mains in this system probably drain directly into the low ("wet") returns, not going thru a trap. Every Hoffman I've seen was set up this way. This means that the steam can get right back to the tank, with nothing to stop it except maybe a shallow water seal where the pipe goes up into the tank. I bet you have some water hammer (banging pipes) near the tank, right?

When the system was gravity return, the wet return had a deep water seal in it that was equalized by the Hartford Loop. This kept steam out of the return. You don't have that now.

I'd lose the pump.

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John Ryan_2

Church Steam Problems

we are located between lake placid and plattsburgh. mad dog, does that mean you could come up and physically look at the system? how much would that cost? when could you come up? where are you located? what is your landline?

Nelson_6

John- Click on the Blue lettering "To Learn more about this professional.." under Mad Dog's post and that will give you his contact information.

- Rod

Steamhead (in transit)

We could probably

arrange for several Wall steam experts to converge on this system. That part of NY State is beautiful country. I could probably get there in a long day's drive from Baltimore.....

A Steam Summit in the Adirondacks! What say ye, Dawg, Noel, TerryT and others?

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Michael Wilson

I'll hold the flashlight!

I'd love to come, help out, and learn :-D



Mike

Mad Dog_2

Lets go

Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

I'm sorry, John...

I hadn't seen the post in a while. Sure, anything is possible. I spent many a summer up that way. The Annual Saranac Lake Rugby Tournement is in August there....but we'd wanna see this when we could run the system. Mad dog

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ttekushan_3

Steam + Summit + Adirondacks

sounds like a winner to me. No problem running the heating system. Isn't there a chart the dead men used to find the interior temp required to determine proper system operation based on outdoor temp? Its on this site somewhere. I recall that if its 80 degrees outside, we aught to be able to get by with, oh, only 129 degrees inside.

Or not.

Still, winter is a problem for a steam summit, what with us steam guys out there donning our capes and wizard's caps wowing our adoring public with the magical gift of steam.

[though my identity crisis makes me unsure whether I'm a steam wizard or a steam wisp.]

Mad Dog_2

Oh.....no.............................

I don't let weather stop ANYTHING I do...even checking a steam system....that being said, charts or not...... the optimal situation to check it out is sometime during the season if you want to see "real time" and the nuances of the Steam and its relation to a particular building. I'm down...when the Summit guys......Mad Dog

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John Ryan_2

Contact

Thank you. I will try and contact you soon.