Boiler piping problem

BAB · March 2009

It may be the angle of the pictures but it looks like the horizontal run just above the boiler (6-8 feet) and the horizontal run just before the vertical are both pitched the wrong way. Very easy to check with a bubble level. Some well placed hangers or floor supports could correct the slope. I leave it to the pros commenting already on this thread to suggest the importance of this detail.

BAB

Anne_6 · February 2009

Boiler Piping Problem Burnham IN-4

Here are some pics of my Burnham IN-4.

I have some questions too. My furnace comes on when the temperature drops to the setting, say I set it at 54; it will drop to 54 then kick on and stay on until it is between 58-60. Do I need a different thermostat? Currently I have the Honeywell round mercury dial. Gas bills are high, I am using 8.9 ccf a day; my bills are higher than folks I know who have forced air and have their furnaces set at 65 or so. I do expect it to be a bit higher (was told the steam is not as efficient as forced air), but I didn't expect it to be so gas-hoggy. At 56-60, depending on the temperature outside it is very cozy in here and I did not expect my gas bills to be so high because the setting is so low.

If it needs repiping, will having it repiped help to save money in heating bills? I was told that it would.

Furnace is not connected to the hot water heater, they are separate.

Sorry the pics are sideways, I cannot fix them for some reason. Maybe the browser I'm using isn't letting me.

If I do need a new thermostat, what is recommended for this type of heating system?

Thank you very much!

http://photobucket.com/leopardlady

This is a repost from: http://forums.invision.net/Index.cfm?CFApp=2&Message_ID=439913

Kool Rod · February 2009

Anne - Hi again. I was wondering what type of steam system you have...whether it is a 1 pipe steam or 2 pipe steam system? This is easy to determine by how many pipes go into each radiator. A 1 pipe system has one pipe attached to each radiator and a 2 pipe system (guess?

has 2 pipes going to each radiator. Knowing this will be of help.

The round mercury type thermostats are actually quite good for steam. It's just that they have to be setup properly.
The first thing that needs to be addressed is your near`boiler piping which is seriously deficient and need to be corrected.

- Rod

MikeyB · February 2009

IN4

Hey Anne, looks like that IN4 is going to need some well needed attention. There is no Hartford Loop, no equalizer, the header is too low, and there are a couple of bull headed tees, looks like a drop header w/3 seperate take off's is needed to straighten out this system.

Anne_6 · February 2009

Hi Mike! Thanks, I was wondering about that Hartford loop.

Rod--it is a 1 pipe system. I've always been fascinated by these things, and think they look pretty cool. Now I own the buggers! lol.

The mercury thermostat is a good one for this type of system? I'm having some trouble with the heating, when the boiler kicks in and when it shuts off so I did think it has to do with the thermostat not working properly. Maybe I just need it recalibrated. When I had a part replaced, that's when it stopped giving me an even temperature, and it's driving me batty! I bundle up to go to sleep and wake up freezing because I kicked the covers off when the thing went on, or walk around without slippers and in about an hour my toes begin to freeze and the floor gets cold because I have the thermo set so low. Having such a difference in temperature, between 4-5 degrees makes a huge difference in comfort, especially with Michigan weather. I did not set it to go so high; I'd be pretty comfy at 56 with the weather we are having right now, but if I set it at 56 it will rise past 60 and then it's too hot and wasting precious energy. $400.00+ heating bills are not fun!

Unknown · February 2009

Anticipator setting

If you remove the ring around the dial of your thermostat (it just pulls off), you will see a small scale numbered from .4 to 1.2 with a pointer. This is the anticipator setting which determines for how long the boiler will fire when the thermostat calls for heat. See what the present setting is. Since it seems that your boiler is running too long causing overheating, you want to adjust the setting toward the .4 end which will reduce the burn cycle time.

If as you say, a component such as the control relay was changed, this could definitely alter the adjustment since each brand or type of relay may require a different setting.

It is really a trial and error adjustment. Try different anticipator settings until the rooms reach the desired temperature without overshooting the thermostat temperature setting

Jack Smith · February 2009

t-stat

Anne,
from your previous post, sound like the thermostat is level and calibration seems fine, but I believe the heat anticipator setting may be off. If you popped the cover off, you should see an arrow which can be slid to increase the cycle time or decrease it. You definitely don't want longer. Probably looking for about .4-.5 as a setting. Hope this helps.

Dick_3 · February 2009

Anne,

This is the 21st century, I'd recommend changing the room thermostat to a new digital thermostat for better temp control. A digital will maintain the room temp to within 1 degree of the temp setting.

Honeywell makes several which will work real nice. You'll have programmable and non-programable options. Try to get one with a boiler setting or a CPH cycle per hour setting which you would set at one cycle per hour.

Are your walls and ceilings insulated? High fuel bills and a lack of insulation have alot to do with each other.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Kritz_3 · February 2009

piping

While you're at it I would get rid of the pipe covering and
replace it with fiberglass.

Steve

Kool Rod · February 2009

Anne: Glad to hear`you're fascinated by steam. You'll really dig Dan's steam books then. Dan's writing style gives you tons of information on steam heat without sounding like a boring textbook. When I got them I couldn't put them down.

I haven't mentioned anything about your piping as I think it would be best if you got the books first as Dan's explanations are far better than anything I could come up with. After reading them you will understand the terminology and the function of the different parts of your steam system and then we can go into what's needed to fix your system.If you budget is tight (and who's isn't these days) at least get "We Got Steam Heat" as it is a good starting book on steam.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-109

I see others have already mentioned about setting the anticipator so that should help with your temperature overshoot problems.

I still think you're going to need to get a steam pro to help you straighten your system out but maybe the best thing is to wait until you have a better knowledge of what you need to have done.

- Rod

Kool Rod · February 2009

Anne: Glad to hear`you're fascinated by steam. You'll really dig Dan's steam books then. Dan's writing style gives you tons of information on steam heat without sounding like a boring textbook. When I got them I couldn't put them down.

I haven't mentioned anything about your piping as I think it would be best if you got the books first as Dan's explanations are far better than anything I could come up with. After reading them you will understand the terminology and the function of the different parts of your steam system and then we can go into what's needed to fix your system.If your budget is tight (and who's isn't these days) at least get "We Got Steam Heat" as it is a good starting book on steam.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-109

I see others have already mentioned about setting the anticipator so that should help with your temperature overshoot problems.

I still think you're going to need to get a steam pro to help you straighten your system out but maybe the best thing is to wait until you have a better knowledge of what you need to have done.

I added some labels to your photos as it might be of help to you in identifying some of the components.

- Rod

Anne_6 · February 2009

ty, Rod and Steve. But why do I need to mess with the oldest parts, the return and the main? I have a concern about removal and disposal of that fiberglass covering. From what I understand, people who are certified in asbestos removal must do it. How important is it that the return and main must be changed? Is it at all feasible to keep them as is?

Thanks a bunch for the pointers on the pics, that is very helpful.

Mike and Jack, I am still playing around with that little part on the thermo, so far I'm pretty close to how I want it to run. Hard to see the numbers! It is sooo much better now! By the end of the eve, I should have it down to a science.

Thanks, Scott. I had heard the digital were more efficient, but I want to make certain it will be a money saver so I don't spend money for basically no reason.

Unknown · February 2009

because the oldest

Because the oldest parts was for the old BOILER ( not furance) and will not work with any new boiler. The new near boiler pipings become part of the new boiler before connecting to the steam main(s). Who's doing the work on your house? I see new copper pipes on wall and also a steam vent sitting on top of your water heater. Wondering what psi are you running the system?

Anne_6 · February 2009

thanks, rj but geesh! That is going to be quite a thing in itself just removing that stuff. Not what I wanted to hear!

The psi is set to the lowest setting, .05

Unknown · February 2009

Optimizing the anticipator

Glad to hear you are getting the hang of the anticipator setting. Keep in mind that you dont want to set the anticipator to the other extreme, where the boiler cycles on and off very frequently. Frequent cycling will decrease efficiency and will wind up increasing your fuel costs. Probably the best compromise is to see a room temperature swing of 1 to 2 degrees between the heating cycles.

Although the boiler piping is definitely incorrect, most likely your present problem of temp swings and resultant high fuel bills is related to the thermostat adjustment as you are now addressing. See how it works out and learn a bit more on how a steam system operates before you commit to any major piping modifications. It appears you have at least some asbestos insulation on your mains and return piping which would be better left alone.

Other than the problems you mentioned, do you have issues with banging pipes, water spitting from vents, or uneven heating in the various rooms? These are the types of problems which would directly result from the incorrect piping of the boiler.

As someone mentioned previously, the main cause of your high fuel bills may be insufficient insulation of the building itself.

Kool Rod · February 2009

Your mains and returns appear to be fine. What is incorrect is your near boiler plumbing and how the mains/returns are connected to the boiler - No equalizer, No Hartford loop etc.

The insulation is fine for the moment. The asbestos insulation is okay as long as it isn't loose and coming apart.
Let's get everything else straightened out first and worry about the pipe insulation last.

- Rod

MikeyB · February 2009

IN4

Good morning Anne, do those end of main air vent's pass steam or water? I noticed one of the vents must have been replaced and is sitting on top of the water heater. If they are giving you a problem you will have to have them brought back about 15 inches and placed up vertically about 6-12 inches or so.

Anne_6 · February 2009

Good morning! The one vent was replaced but they don't seem to be giving me a problem. Someone replaced only one because they didn't see the 2nd one. I don't see anything leaking from them. I think it was replaced because it was clogged.

Thanks, Rod. Phwew, almost had a heart attack thinking all of that other piping needs to be replaced! Probably would be better off, but there is no way I'm going to be able to do that.

Anne_6 · February 2009

Mike

Banging pipes yes, water spitting no, uneven heating yes, ironically in my downstairs living and dining room it is chilly, but I noticed it seems cooler down there after I put plastic on the windows. Figure that one, I surely can't. lol.

BAB · February 2009

Main Supply Pipe Slope/Pitch

It may be the angle of the pictures but it looks like the horizontal run just above the boiler (6-8 feet) and the horizontal run just before the vertical are both pitched the wrong way. Very easy to check with a bubble level. Some well placed hangers or floor supports could correct the slope. I leave it to the pros commenting already on this thread to suggest the importance of this detail.

BAB

MikeyB · February 2009

main

That 2" horizontal main will produce some nice water hammer if it's pitched with the flow of steam, no drip, no equalizer. The condensate in the header(if it cannot drain)is going to rob the steam of it's latent heat.

Kool Rod · February 2009

Hi Anne- Actually the old piping in situations such as yours is usually the only part of the installation that was done right as it was done by the "Deadmen". You'll hear that term used a lot on this board and it refers to the extremely competent steam pros (who have long since passed on) that installed these systems originally and who knew what they were doing.

Typically what a homeowner is facing today is a steam system that was originally installed by someone competent and since then has had many idiots work on it. There have also been changes too, like the installation of newer boilers. The new boilers today are a lot smaller in size as a lot of the functions that used to be done inside the big old boiler, are now done in the piping (headers, risers) externally near the boiler. This is why the configuration of the external piping on today's boiler is so important in production of good (dry) steam.

If you connect the boiler to the steam mains the same way the old larger boiler was done, (without the near boiler piping) the system obviously wouldn't work as well. This is basically what has happened in your case.

I know I keep pushing Dan's books ("We Got Steam Heat" etc.) on you. It's just that I think this is the fastest way to get you up to speed on your steam system. Questions and answers just address the little things without giving you total understanding of your system. After reading the book(s) you'll will find then that the questions asked/ comments make sense and things begin to rapidly fall into place for you as you really begin to understand what it is all about. Steam is actually quite easy to understand. After reading and within several weeks, you'll know more about steam than most heating pros and will be able to critique your own system. This is really the great benefit of learning about steam as you can then either fix it yourself or direct someone else to do the work. If nothing else it gives you the knowledge to immediately qualify whether the person who is going to be doing the work for you knows anything about steam.

You also might want to look around this site as Dan has posted a lot of good info on steam. Here is a good link which gives you the basic background on steam.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=54

Another good site is Gerry Gill's :

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=54

I only wish they were closer to you as it would be pretty hard to find anyone more expert on steam than them. Gerry & Steve have posted a lot of pictures and explanations on the site which are very interesting and from which one can learn a lot. Take notice of the pictures of boiler and of the piping around the boilers.

- Rod

Unknown · February 2009

where are you located

Where are you located in Michigan?

Anne_6 · February 2009

Cool, that main can be fixed with some engineering. The last guys to work on my furnace did say something about it not being able to drain properly because a pipe is too low (or was it too high). That's why the feeder was feeding too much water; it wasn't coming back into the system fast enough.

Seems the guy who worked on it last is the most knowledgable of the 3 that did work on it, but he didn't tell me all the things you guys have so far. He did point out a few things, but really I didn't have a clue and didn't know if he was pulling my leg or if he even knew for certain what he is doing in regards to the piping, so I made an exit and let him finish his work. As someone said, the deadmen are, well, dead and gone. There are few experts in steam these days, and I can't afford to have someone fix me up only to find it is wrong. I appreciate the recommendations of the books, I'll go to the library and see if I can get a copy.

The guy is trying to talk me into forced air, but I am quite unwilling to go that route unless it becomes absolutely necessary and will be more cost effective. I do need insulation and new windows, and I can imagine how cold it will be with forced air in this place. I like my steam, haven't caught cold this year and usually by now I've had at least 1, my skin isn't dry and flakey and I feel healthier. Plus, I don't have all that dust flying around that gets caught in the vents.

What is the most cost-effective way to go? Continue on with the existing boiler or would forced air be kinder to my pocket book in the winter months? There are 2 people I know who had steam, both fixed up the house and 1 got a new boiler but they ended up going with forced air and the bills were cut in less than 1/2 of what they were paying with the steam in both cases. I'm wondering if the folks with the new furnace had it installed properly and if that could make such a huge difference in the gas bill. Should I expect to use roughly the same amount of gas I am now no matter what I do to try to insulate?

Unknown · February 2009

stay the h*** away

Stay the hell away from furance! Furance for hot air system while BOILER is for steam and I would keep the steam system with the new near pipings on your exsiting system. By the way, you havnt told us where you are located.

Charlie from wmass · February 2009

Anne you have a full steam system right now, with some work around the boiler you can have a very nice quiet, efficent system. You need to realize you installer new next to nothing of what they were doing. When your system is finally fixed you will love steam I am sure. Take a deep breath and try talking with a Michigan steam pro.

Kool Rod · February 2009

Anne- I think we're beginning to chase our tails here. As I see it you basically have two paths you can take:
1. Find a real steam expert to straighten out your system or

2. Learn about steam yourself and then figure out who you can get to fix your system either by qualifying them and /or directing just how you want you want your system done.

If it were me I'd do a combination of the two.

The "Deadmen" maybe physically dead, however, their knowledge lives on in Dan's books. Dan is one of the few experts on residential steam systems and he teaches seminars to heating pros who are trying to increase their knowledge about steam. Without reading his books you'll have a hard time learning much about steam.

Notes on your system:
I think you need to erase what people have told you in the past as it is obviously pretty erroneous and re start your steam knowledge from scratch so to speak.

Your mains- While it is obviously hard to tell from just a picture, they look okay and I doubt if they are sloped the "wrong way". The highest point should be where the pipes from the boiler join the mains and then it should slope towards the opposite end of the main /return from there. I you case it looks like it makes a U turn and comes back towards the boiler.

Your Boiler Piping: Your boiler piping is quite frankly atrocious and that's putting it mildly/politely. As configured it has to be producing very wet steam and this accounts for your water usage. Wet steam isn't very efficient so that means you are spending more money for fuel than you should. Your system now could be considered similar to a car engine running on only half its cylinders. Why the person who installed your boiler didn't just follow the manufacturer's instructions is beyond me. If they had been even basically followed, you would now have an operating system. On the plus side - You have a good boiler and the boiler piping is quite easy to straighten out provided the person doing it knows what they are doing. After that is is just a matter of tuning your system a bit with possibly new vents.

Insulation - After you get you steam system straightened out and running properly your need to insulate the steam pipes around the boiler. You want the steam to go to the radiators, not heat the basement.

Don't get suckered into "steam is old fashioned", "not efficient" etc. "buy a new heating system". Properly setup and tuned a steam system works very well and efficiently and it's much more economical to fix your steam system than have a new one installed. Hot Air furnaces have been around for as long as steam but most people preferred steam.

- Rod

Anne_6 · February 2009

Rod

Hi! I have a question about the pics you marked for me.

What is wrong with the low water cutoff and the blowoff valve? That black thing, don't know what it is called, was replaced with a new one; that's where it was originally. The pressuretrol has since been replaced with the old one. Someone replaced the pressuretrol for me, (the one in the pic) charged for a new part when it was used. I got taken on that big time! The last guy put back the original one.

Also, what's with the transformer? is it the placement or is it the wrong one altogether?

The last guy didn't like the pressure gauge either. What is wrong with that?

I was told the riser needed to be risen. lol. It's supposed to be higher than it is. Is that the case?

What is wrong with the sight glass?

Moldy Canolies, I can't believe everything is wrong with everything on the unit! I thought at least the dials and such would be right. Yikes!

One more thing this time: is the return pipe supposed to be lower?

Thanks!

Anne_6 · February 2009

Rod-pics and placement of mechanisms

Hi! I have a question about the pics you marked for me.

What is wrong with the low water cutoff and the blowoff valve? That black thing, don't know what it is called, was replaced with a new one; that's where it was originally. The pressuretrol has since been replaced with the old one. Someone replaced the pressuretrol for me, (the one in the pic) charged for a new part when it was used. I got taken on that big time! The last guy put back the original one.

Also, what's with the transformer? is it the placement or is it the wrong one altogether?

The last guy didn't like the pressure gauge either. What is wrong with that?

I was told the riser needed to be risen. lol. It's supposed to be higher than it is. Is that the case?

What is wrong with the sight glass?

Moldy Canolies, I can't believe everything is wrong with everything on the unit! I thought at least the dials and such would be right. Yikes!

One more thing this time: is the return pipe supposed to be lower?

Thanks!

Anne_6 · February 2009

Thanks, I really needed to hear about the efficiency! and of course everything else. It sure sounds like those other 2 folks I know may have had some bad setups.

I'm definitely going to learn all I can and ask a lot of questions when I have someone come over to check the system out. I'm already thinking the last guy that was here does know a thing or 2, but now that I know more I can definitely quiz him on it and see for sure if he would work out. He's really, really cheap! Because of my friend telling him to take it easy on me.

Of course, he must know what he is doing, too. Just having a good break in price doesn't mean diddly.

As far as steam experts on this sight, do you know there is only 1 company from Avon, Ohio that is listed here for my area? They have to cross a state line to get to me. I wish someone closer were listed. The service call alone would be outrageous because of the gas they need to use. Yikes!

btw--sorry for posting the same thing twice in regards to the pics. I couldn't find the first one I wrote! lol. Nor could I find the 2nd one.........but they are up there somewhere. Look for the date. lol! How confusing.

Anne_6 · February 2009

I got the book in the mail today, We got steam heat. I read the first few pages. it is funny, easy to read and understand so far.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Anne_6 · March 2009

Radiators heating unevenly

To save some money on the gas bill (that hopefully will be much lower after I get the boiler re-piped) I turned the heat way down and noticed 2 of 3 radiators upstairs are barely heating up; one doesn't even come on until I turn the heat up. Only 1 heats fabulously, and that one is in a spare room. My bedroom often is chilly and the radiator only heats from 1/4 to 1/2 through if it does come on at all. I did replace 2 of the steam vents, one in my room and the other in the spare room. The bathroom still needs replacing. As long as I have the heat up to 58 they all heat quite well, but if I turn it down below that then they go on strike or something. There is no thermostat upstairs, so it's not because the temperature has reached the level I set it at that prevents them from coming on.

What can be happening here? Also, when the heat is up and the radiators are doing what they should do, the radiator in my bedroom whistles.

Larry C_13 · March 2009

Whistling radiator vent

Anne,

Whisling radiator vents usually indicate not enough venting in the steam SYSTEM. All of the air in the system is trying to get out of the way of the steam and apparently the only escape path is thru your bedroom radiator.

Larry C

Larry C_13 · March 2009

double post

nicholas bonham-carter · March 2009

uneven heat

i think your lack of effective venting may be causing some of the uneveness of heat, in that the steam is not filling the mains at zero back pressure, then when the vents close can begin the simultaneous ascent up all the risers to the rads. i would get some big gorton #2's and put one on each return. also as mentioned, the steam piping should be redone as per the mfgs specs. a vaporstat and good low pressure gauge also will help.--nbc

mel rowe · March 2009

Ann, I know some good technicians in SE Mich.

What city are you in?

Anne_6 · December 2010

mel

Just sent you an email.

Anne_6 · December 2010

IN-4 reinstall

Well, I got myself in a bit of a mess. My guy came and gutted the near-boiler piping in August. Now it is December and I am freezing. He never finished the job.........

I need a pro that will actually show up. I've had some guys come through and give estimates, but they don't show. Well, one of them did--but the guy that company sent told me I don't need a hartford loop.......ummm...that is exactly WHY I am in this mess!

I live near Wyandotte and need someone who works with the state of Michigan.

Thank you.

BobC · December 2010

Good help is hard to find

I'm sorry to hear you haven't been able to find competent help. You should really post this in the strictly steam area so the guys that know steam can see it. just post a message over there and include the link to this thread so they can refer to it.

I did find this guy listed in the pro area but I have no idea if he is near you - http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/265/Giroux-Heating-Cooling-Inc If not, call him up and ask if he could recommend anyone.

Also post some more pictures so we can see what your dealing with.

good luck,

Bob

Anne_6 · December 2010

Thanks Bob!

I will post in the steam forum soon as I can get my pc studio to behave.

Anne_6 · October 2012

Now it's knocking like an angry crack head!

Hello. I did get the work done and was very happy, though it knocked a bit more than before. Then last year it was worse, and this year OMG!! It gets consistently worse the more it is used, and it's only October now!

The heat is even and every room is warm, I got a new thermostat but am

still having trouble setting it--it still goes down more than a few

degrees before it comes on. I don't get it. I have a digital one that I

can't get to work, so there is a manual cheapy one that I have played

with alot in the last year or so to get it right, and still no cigar.

The gas bills are a lot lower than they were before it was re-piped. Somehow I think the company broke the auto feed for the water, only a few days after they were here it quit working and I have to manually feed the water.

They didn't calibrate the return line, and it's obvious the return is a bit higher when it comes to the new piping, thus i believe why I have such terrible knocking. But why would it consistently get worse every year? The old piping system didn't knock near as much, just a few gentle knocks and that was it. Once in awhile there was a louder one but it was bearable, but the new, this is driving me absolutely crazy! Why is it like that? If it even stayed the same as 2010/2011 it wouldn't be so terrible, even though it was noisier it was tolerable.

I'm trying to send some pics but no internet connection on the phone for some reason.

Boiler piping problem

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