Near Boiler Piping-Need desparate help please critique

carter_3

Rod, i totally understand what you are saying. Pros come on here to give average homeowners advice not to hurt their fellow plumbers.
but just a little note in my defense. I had this boiler installed less than a year. I paid premium on this boiler because i went with gas company thinking its better to get service since they are bigger. I have had nothing but trouble since the install and being a long time lurker on the wall, i have learned so many things that i know i should be getting with my install.
i have had the company come back numerous times only to find out that they weren't really trained in steam.
Now i find my piping is done wrong and not to code. I have explained my frustration with the gas company and they have promise to do whatever it takes to get my system running right.
so i am not really taken advantage of these guys, im just getting what i paid for and what i paid for is to get a good running system.
besides, the guys they dispatch to my house are not plumbers, they are techs or those "knuckleheads" dan mentions on his book.
being that the appointment is this week, i want to make sure i have them do the piping correctly so i can have a steam pro come diagnose my issue should there be any post re-pipe. the gas company is a lost cause, as no one seems to know what steam heating is.

Kool Rod

I'm glad you understand. Too many times I see homeowners coming on here and after being told that they need things like a second riser, dropheaders etc. get rather indignant and you can tell that they are thinking that they got cheated by the tech and that the job should have been done this way (dropheaders etc.) in the first place. However I think there is a lot more to it than that.

If one is looking for fault I blame the boiler manufacturers. As installation is a large part of the total cost of a boiler install, they publish minimal installation specifications so the bid, using their boiler, is the lowest. Also as a result of these marginal specifications, techs and plumbers, who aren't well grounded in steam heating, are lead down the wrong path in thinking that these specs represent the optimum install. ("After all, if the factory doesn't know how to install boilers, who does?")
If I'm overly protective of "the Wall", it is because having gone through a situation similar to yours, finding the Wall (and Dan's books) saved me from drowning in a sea of steam ignorance.

Unknown

Hot Rod is kind and thoughtful as usual.

I tell my local customers to shy away from the local gas supplier, as they are not qualified to service boilers (or furnaces for that matter).

When a gas appliance has to be replaced, they bid the job and let it out to a local "licensed" low bidder.

Our gas supplier is just another quasi-governmental monopoly with an exclusive monthly connection to the homeowner. The MN PHCC took them to court and lost, unfortunate for the homeowner and the dedicated contractor.

Sorry if this is a bit off the subject, but HotRod started it! hehehee

bob young

wrong number

Not hot rod just regular rod !!

Kool Rod

Hmmm.... I think there might be a bit of a mixup here. There are at least two "Rods" on the Wall. I'm Rod, the retired homeowner, and Hot Rod is the heating pro. I wouldn't want an innocent guy to take the blame for my ranting!

Edit: LOL @ Bob I was thinking maybe I should change my name so there is no further mixup and you have helped me out. I'm now going to be know as "Regular Rod"!

Unknown

Hah!

That's my story and I'm sticken to it!

hehehee

bob young

You could also be known as " KOOL ROD ". lol

jim s_2

Who sized it ??

Would be interesting to find out how they went about sizing your boiler.

Charlie from wmass

For Now we have a bit of a break as the local natural gas supplier is out of the service and installation bussiness. O am not betting it will last much longer but plenty of others step up to fill the "void". It is hard when we as contractors walk into calls like this. I had one last week the home owner was so proud of their steam boiler. The installer who I know and get along with told them no one around can do steam and they were lucky to find him. The header runs along to a 90 on its side right into a reducing coupling then to the 90 that drops to the hartford loop. the 90 on its side is down hill from the first 90 on the riser. I drained the extra 30 gallons of water out of the unit the home owner had put in . Clean the sight glass the home owner warned me always broke when the installer removed it before and made sure the burner was firing correctly and kept my mouth shut. When I asked if the system made much noise I was told "Only trhe normal banging until it is warmed up" Was it wrong of me to keep quiet , maybe, but it was not in copper and it was 90 percent correct. No point in making an enemy over such a thing. That being said if its missing a riser it is missing a riser. If the I&O for the boiler says pipe it this way then short of using a drop header it should be piped as suggested. Better than suggested is always nice but as suggested is the least they should do, the least they can do is much less we know that.

Wayne Heid_2

Gents, so i am fully understanding your critque, please see the attached picture. The tee on the equalizer needs to be at least 2" below the center of water line in sight glass?

Thanks once again.

Kool Rod

Carter- You need to go back to the "beginning" and check the Manufacturers installation manual as the present water level in your site glass might be incorrect so I wouldn't use the visible waterline as a basis of your measurements.

In the installation manual there is normally a drawing that has measurements which:

1.Show the "design" water level of the boiler. This then usually becomes the measurement from which all measurements are taken. I mentioned earlier about using masking tape and marking the design waterline on several places on your boiler's cover. You should also carefully mark this level on your boiler's site glass as this design waterline is what the manufacturer deems should be the water`level of your boiler at rest.

2. The distance below the waterline where the wet return should connect to the Hartford Loop is shown on this drawing. This is normally 2 inches but I have seen some measurements that are slightly different on the manufacturer's drawings. Use the manufacturer's recommended measurement! (Also very important that this connecting is made with a close nipple to avoid water hammer!) See note below as Burnham does this measurement differently!

3. The minimum height above the waterline that the boiler's exit risers need to be.

With regard to Item # 2 above I just checked the IN5 installation manual and the dimension is measured from the base of the boiler and the "Design Water Line" is called the "Normal Water Line".

The I&O Manual for a Burnham IN5 can be found here:

http://www.burnham.com/PDF/IO/Independence.pdf

The measurements are on Page 17 of the manual.

- Rod

Wayne Heid_2

awesome rod.
The normal boiler line is 28" from floor to center of sight glass. the hartford loop tee shows 26", which is exactly what bob mentioned above.

your comment "Also very important that this connecting is made with a close nipple to avoid water hammer!)"

can you please point out which nipple connection this may be on my set up?
Much appreciated

Kool Rod

In the last picture you posted the close nipple in question (which in examining the picture is, in fact, a close nipple)connects the Tee on your Hartford Loop to the Elbow on your Wet Return.

Condensate from the return entering the Hartford Loop can do so at quite a great velocity so the reason for using the close nipple/elbow is to try to limit this velocity. If a long straight nipple or a straight pipe is connected to this tee, the condensate can then build up momentum and when entering the tee, it slams into tee wall which causes a "banging" (Water Hammer).

In the Installation drawing you will see that using a "Y" or an elbow/close nipple combination is suggested. I would say that 99 % of the steam installations use a elbow/close nipple, probably due to the fact they are easier to obtain and neater/easier to install.

- Rod

Wayne Heid_2

So other than adjusting it to a 2" below Normal Water line i am good.

Rod, I just want to thank you and everyone else on this wall for being so patient with me.

Your inputs and advice has been very very informatative and helpful in my quest to a smooth running steam system.
It is because of people like you that homeowners learn what they need before going out for a "pro". Now i can really tell the difference between a real steam pro or a knucklehead. Much APPRECIATED.


i will be back to post the repipe pictures.

Thanks again gentlemen

greeny

man is that water DIRTY!

greeny

man is that water DIRTY!

bob young

water or chocolate milk

water looks a bit murky. might want to throw in a can of " Squick. "