Near Boiler Piping-Need desparate help please critique

Steamhead (in transit)

what model Burnham is that? Should be IN- or PIN-something.....

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bob_114

Near Boiler Piping-Need desparate help please critique

I have been a long time fan of this site and my new home just had an installation done by the local gas company.
From reading Dan's book, I know something is wrong with the piping, now i just need help from you all before i go back and argue for a re-pipe job.

pic named "equalizer turn and equalizer turn 2"
i know this elbow must face down, how important is this?

pic named "equalizer" i know that elbow must turn down to prevent water collection, but wouldnt facing it down block the site glass? and where should they add the elbows to sync up with the Hartford loop? before or after loop?

pic named "riser and header & header" is this set up OK or does it need to be repiped?

pic named "bullhead" is this considered a bullhead?

lastly pic name "supply to main", are the supply pipes to my radiators small (left side of pic)? and anything wrong with this piping?


apologies for the long post, but this is my last option because i dont want to pay out of pocket to repipe.
Thank you so much for all your comments and help.

Steve Garson_2

The only question I have: what is the distance from the water line in the watch glass to the header? Is it more than 24-inches?

carter_2

Thanks for quick response. You are good for spotting it, as it is not 24". After reading Dan's book and referring to boiler manual, this is what prompted me to do the repipe.
that wil be the first order of business, but i also need to make certain that all else is done right or wrong so i can have them fix it when they are here.

I know how important it is to have the piping done right, so i want to give them hell in a one time shot.

Thanks.

jim s_2

I `ve seen much worse

It actually looks well installed from the pics.

Don`t see any bullhead tees or other short cuts.

Are you having problems?

Steve Garson_2

Everything looks OK, except for the 24-inches from the water line. But if it works without noise or surging, you may be fine. I'm just a home owner wallie. Listen to the pros.

Brad White_191

A few thoughts...

I agree that the initial boiler rise should be taller. You have the height, so why not use it?

The system feed at least is tall so the possibility is there.

I would go to the specific model piping diagram and see if it recommends/requires that both boiler tappings be used. I see one plugged tapping and one apparently 2-inch boiler riser.

Without knowing the model and load, I would think that the velocity, coupled with the short rise, would mean somewhat wet steam. The tall system riser would mitigate this at least.

The connecting piping at the existing is certainly creative, I give them credit for that.

The biggest question is, "how does it operate?". Is it quiet, does it vent and heat quickly?

Regardless of how ideal the piping is, the operation is key. Each facet of detail contributes to better performance. Some conspire to cause problems, some are so much "better than spec" (e.g. tall and large initial risers and maybe a dropped header) that they compensate for other deficiencies.

So, how does she run?

donald@donaldluckenbill.com

I believe im getting wet steam. My vents hiss and gurgles and bangs at radiator level(all fully pitched). I think i have it vented right with installation of 3 additional Gorton 1s totaling 4. She is not insulated which may contribute to the banging, but She bangs a lot at start up.

Does that elbow connecting to equalizer need to be turned or is it irrelevant?
Im just worried that being the equalizer being so short, how are they going to re-line up up right before the hartford loop?

This is a burnham IN5.

Dan Foley

Piping

The piping looks ok. The IN-5 only require one riser. The gauge glass looks dirty. Try cleaning and skimming and see what happens. -DF

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Brad White_203

The IN-5

indeed allows a single riser (hey, you need at least one!), but does have use of the second riser as optional for the IN-3, 4, 5 and 6. The IN-7 and up require that both be used.

A dropped header is also an alternative practice, one we know adds benefit.

Given the short rise and the fact that you have wet steam, using the second tapping and even increasing the diameter (but at least increasing the height because you do have room), is something I would recommend.

Jean-David Beyer

Thanks everyone!
last question, the manufacturer calls for a minimun of 2" piping, can i upsize to per say 3" or 2 1/2"? or should i leave it alone?
i read somewhere that the header should be the biggest pipe in the entire set up.

Thanks

Dan Foley

Brad

Brad, I agree with your comments 100%. We would have used two risers. Two risers would always be better than one. The question is whether that is what is causing the problem.

I would try cleaning and skimming first, seeing the gook floating at the water line of the gauge glass, before I broke out the wrenches.

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Brad White_203

No argument there, Dan

You are correct, less invasive first. At the same time, the short rise and that second tapping is such a lost opportunity, we both agree.

But as you say, hold the wrenches, pass the skimming bucket!

Jean-David Beyer

Thank you all very much.

i will ask the teck to install a skim port on the pre-plugged tapping.
i will request a second riser and have them raise both as high as possible. maybe going to 28".

Thanks again.

carter_3

To All.

Are headers suppose to be pitched?
i found on one of the forums a drawing that indicates that headers are pitched, but many other photos shows headers being leveled?

Brad White_203

Eye, There's the Rub...

To determine level by a photograph is like determining the curvature of the earth through the bottom of a beer mug -which you have yourself just emptied

Yes, headers are usually pitched, starting with their high points after leaving the boiler and on down to the equalizer. Level headers will still drain, but good practice says to go up one size to allow that water a place to collect while preserving at least the original-size pipe volume.

Essentially, you want all of your flow to go in the same direction as much as possible. Back-flow is to be minimized.

As to your previous post, I applaud the notion of using both risers but you do have the height to go even higher or to make a dropped header. I would also, as mentioned, increase the risers at least one size to reduce their core velocity. Nice touch, not essential and height is your friend here. You have it, so spend it, I say.

My friend Dan Foley did suggest skimming and cleaning (which you should be doing anyway) before major surgery. I suspect that is a good wish but that some pipe work will be required and skimming done as part of finishing up that work.

A clean boiler is a good thing but cannot compensate for short risers and high velocity within them.

carter_3

Brad, hate to keep pestering you for your free advice, but i have one last question.

You are suggesting bigger size risers and headers?
both are 2" recommendation to you suggest i got 3" for both header and 2 risers?

As for the pitch, if you look at my equalizer pic above, i would have to pitch the header towards the equalizer(right of picture)? so therefore, my first riser (which i dont have now but anticipate to put in) should be slightly higher than the last riser to obtain the desirable pitch correct?

No more questions after this..

Brad White_203

Free???

Believe me, it is not free. It costs me plenty LOL

Kidding aside, happy to help. I am still learning too so all good.

I suggested going up just one size to 2.5" risers as a very conservative measure. 3" pipe is nice but a bit unwieldy.

If you went to 2.5" size and used both, this would get your riser velocity (not exit velocity for that is fixed at the tappings) down to below 15 FPS, actually more like 13 FPS if you went with 2.5" risers.

Now, if you keep with both 2" risers as they are, your riser velocity would be under 18 FPS which is respectably low.

You know what? I withdraw that suggestion, especially in that you will be raising the bar (so to speak), by raising your initial boiler riser height.

You might consider a 2.5" header though, just to drop off as much entrained moisture as you can.

Your single 2" riser as you now have, would have an exit velocity of over 35 FPS as a point of reference.

Way back when, 15 FPS was the gold standard, now it is said to be 25 FPS and sometimes up near 50 FPS in some makes. I am not sure what changed or why the physics of what worked years ago suddenly is forgiven.

Keep in mind that I am basing my exit velocities on GROSS steam output as a conservative measure. This exceeds the "connected EDR" number by 33 percent.

See, the boiler will put out this much steam but the piping and pick-up losses absorb it. The gross steam output is fully generated at the boiler but that 33% margin technically does not see the radiators. I hope that makes sense.

The "two risers combining" conundrum.. indeed it is difficult to get a pitch when you have fittings which want to be perpendicular.

For that reason, I would "just admit defeat" and call it level, truly level, not just "equal nipple offsets", if no true pitch could be created. What then becomes key is a good straight run to your equalizer, past your system take-off, then down-turn that end elbow full size before any reduction to the equalizer. The forward momentum of your steam will carry along whatever entrained water made it's way to that point.

You can see how a dropped header makes these concerns go away, yes? Water forced down, steam allowed to rise. Ahhhh.

carter_3

Brad you are the best, thanks!

jim s_2

Good luck

If it`s installed per the manufacturers directions they will probably charge you for any extra piping.

Also good luck getting the plug out of the skim tapping,burnham likes to bury those things at the factory.

MikeyB

Tapping

I agree w/Jim. Burnham like's to bury those plugs home... Remember to apply your patience when you look to remove that 1" plug.....

bob young

WHEN it comes to steam PITCH rules.....& drip

Unknown

Gas Suppliers

I tell every customer to call me back before deciding for the local gas supplier or their sub-contractors. I spend time every week following them around.

Dan C.

I wouldn't up size the pipe or use the second riser. They will charge you to do this and they should. I always use 1 riser and 2" Unless it is an IN7 or larger. There is nothing wrong with doing it that way. It says it right in the instruction manual. I never have ANY problems doing it that way. However I would definitly have them come back and skim the boiler and raise the height of the riser if it is not high enough. A lot of times when the boiler needs to be skimmed it creates more problems than you could ever imagine. The equalizer is ok to turn as long as you don't reduce the pipe size on the horizontal.

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Ted Robinson

Burnham IN5 Installation - photo

The photo here shows the dropped header using two risers that I specified for the Pro to install on our system. I felt qualified in directing him what to do after the years I've spent reading the posts here. (I don't know what I might have gotten if I hadn't written my own boiler install spec.)

The installing Pro did get that 1 in skim plug out and installed a skimming valve, mostly for me to use. After warm and cold skimming, the water level doesn't bounce very far on the glass during steaming.

carter_3

Nice photo ted. Do you have more pics of your IN5 install?
I would like to take a look at the side of your boiler with the equalizer.

as for the extra charge, i think i may be able to get them as i have nothing but trouble since install. I think he may work with me just to keep me satisfied.

Kool Rod

If you want to see some excellent examples of dropheaders take a look at Gerry Gill's website. These guys are masters of the dropheader!

http://gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=1

If your guy is reluctant, you might point out one of the advantages of the swing joints on a dropheader is that it makes it very easy to fit the pipe together.

- Rod

carter_3

Thanks ROD. this is exactly what im looking for.

Ted Robinson

Another view of our IN5 install

Here is a second photo. It was taken before the electrician arrived, and before I did an amateur pipe insulating job.

jim s_2

Who sized it

and how?

Be interested in seeing if they did it right or not.

I`d say let `em clean it first to see if that does anything and for God`s sake insulate the piping!

Steven Gronski

Equalizer and boilerskim

Burnham says your equalizer should be 1 1/2" . I also set up for skimming with a 3/4"tee with a ball valve where the relief valve goes for my skimming purposes as well. I place a tee coming out of the tapping on the boiler for a relief valve on the run, put the relief valve on the bull head of the tee, and then put an elbow on the other side of the run turned downward with a ball valve on it. I leave the valve on and plug it when I am done skimmimg, but the valve is always there to skim when the boiler water gets dirty.

Steven Gronski

Gronski Plumbing and Heating

bob young

use skim tapping instead

how come you don't use the one inch skim tapping burnham provides in the side of the boiler expressly for skimming the boiler. the book explains it but you must remove the factory installed plug

Steven Gronski_3

try getting it out.....ive busted my knuckles enough.....this has worked well for me all the time and ive never has a skimming issue setting it up this way.If burnham was smart, they would leave the plug out and let us decide how or if we want to skim.

carter_3

Question.
my boiler's equalizer is connected to the bottome drain and hartford loop and the wet return.

yours is connected to your hartford loop.

is mine done correctly?
appointment is this monday. i want to get my info straight.

Thanks for all the pics!

Kool Rod

Suggest you post some pictures of your lower boiler piping so we can take a better look at it. One of your posted pictures is cutoff off a little high so doesn't show much.

- Rod

bob young

accepted standard piping methods

just make sure he follows the diagram.& skims. custom piping above minimum suggested requirements are going to come with price tags.

carter_3

rod, will this work or you need something else.

Thanks

bob young

2 \" benchmark

top of tee for hartford loop should be 2 " below normal water line. as per your instruction manual. that looks a bit too low. if low water cut off fails & return leaks if boiler is empty it will fry if it energizes on a heat call.

bob_114

thanks bob. is that all. so i can have my equalizer connected to bottom drain and hartford loop and wet return?
no issue other than the 2" benchmark?

thanks.

bob young

code & safety issue

The piping arrangement is exact , the height of tee is questionable & a major error if not correct. it is either right or wrong . buy that plumber a ruler.

Kool Rod

Hi- I'm assuming that you have or have already downloaded the correct I & O Manual for your boiler. I would then put a strip in masking tape on the side of your boiler cabinet near the glass site gauge and mark the design water line using the factory specified dimensions. I would then repeat this operation where having the design water line marked is needed to make installation measurements.

As Bob Young has said, your Hartford loop looks okay. However you'll have to measure/check the wet return connection height as it is hard to determine if it is correct from the photograph.

From what I can see you now have the basic factory installation and even though it was slightly screwed up, I think I should mention that if you plan to now add options such as a second riser and a drop header, that in fairness, you should be prepared to pay for it.

The great thing about "the Wall" is that the pros on here willingly share their vast knowledge and come on here, after a hard workday, to help others. I think that attitude would rapidly change if advice they provided was used to take unfair advantage of one of their colleagues. I'm not suggesting that you would do such a thing but wanted to mention that this is a sensitive area and we, as homeowners, if we want the continued good will and help from the pros here, need to keep this in mind.

- Rod