Boiler Condensate into Septic Tank

steve_200

Is this a matter of running condensate into a septic system or into a leaching tank (french drain)that is used only for the sink?

I wouldn't be concerned about directing neutralized condensate to a leaching tank, but given the cost of a new septic system (can be as high as $50k or more here in suburban Boston)I'd want to see very good long-term experimental data proving that condensate -neutralized or not- does not affect the biological action in the tank. I couldn't find such data on the Web.

The Buderus GB125 installation instructions say "It is not recommended to drain untreated condensate in
septic systems".

Happy Jake

Into the septic or no?

Gentlemen,

We have a number of jobs with floor sinks that are not connected to the city sewer, but rather to a septic tank.

It has been our custom to use a condensate neutralizer on these jobs.

The building authority of a local municipality has disallowed this. Is this reasonable? (Not that "reasonable" has ever been the most important criteria)

Should I push on getting this allowed or is the City actually wise to prevent it?

If not, what substantiation can I present to make my case?

Also, I have been told that white roofing rock is a good alkali to use in neutralizers. What do other people use?

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Mark Eatherton

I vote septic tank....

And I suspect that if you check with the sewage treatment authority, they would prefer that you return it to the earth as well. As far as neutralization for the septic tank, if it is all plastic drainage piping, I would not worry about it. Dilution is the solution to pollution.

It represents "unmetered water", which sewage authorities HATE.

As for neutralization medium, yes to marble, or limestone if you've have it. From what I understand, the carbonates from limestone can migrate and clog pipes. I've never had an issue with marble in that respect.

ME

Happy Jake

Marble Chips

I called around looking for marble chips and could not find a source.

Where have you found it? Masonry supply? None around here had any.

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Mark Eatherton

Home Depot

in the garden department. Bags of white crushed marble, 20# sacks, around $5...

ME

Derheatmeister

\"Nitrobackters\"

The "Nitrobackters" that help break down the Solids Will die and you Could Clog your Septic leach field which can be very Expensive to replace.. I HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE! and it cost the Customer's $45000 to have it fixed! So on a small environment the Solution to pollution is dilution does not always work !!!

BTW in Germany it is Illegal to drain the Acidic Condensate down the Drain with out Neutralizing it first!

Happy Jake

Condensate is Neutralized

The condensate will definitely be neutralized.

That is to say as AS LONG AS THE HOMEOWNER MAINTAINS THE NEUTRALIZER OR HIRES US TO DO IT.

We offer a complimentary maintenance the first year after the install, but it is up to the owner to hire us after that.

As usual there are a lot of opinions here.

As we all know, one good lawsuit can ruin your whole decade. Can anyone find anything definitive on this subject?

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Mark Eatherton

I suspect.....

that the use of clorox, and other anti bacterial soaps killed the bacterial action of the tank. Some water has inherently low pH to begin with.

The head of the environmental health cautioned me against using beneficial bacteria in my septic system. Said it could allow bacterial migration out of the tank and in to the field.

The minimal quantities of low pH condensate generated by a condensing appliance, compared to the daily gallonage of domestic water is extremely low. The dilution ratio would be such that its presence would be hardly noticed by the bacteria digesting solids in the tank.

Besides, what else are you going to do with it? Let it flow on the surface and freeze? I guess a person could evaporate it back into the atmosphere, at an elevated energy penalty. If I'm not mistaken, one of the modcon boiler manufacturers now has approved their appliance for use outside, and they are evaporating their condensate.

ME

Unknown

Is that your opinion Mark?,

I may be mistaken, but I thought not long ago Hot Rod suggested strongly against-it.
Who may be correct?

Dave

Mark Eatherton

Not only is it my opinion...

but it's my professional opinion :-)

Based on what I see going on inside our condensate drains and neutralizers in the way of bacterial action, I really don't think low pH has a significant impact on bacterial action, but I am NOT a biologist.

Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone has one. They just look different. Innies, outties, uppies, downies. :-) As I said before, if al you have is a septic system, or private sewage disposal system, AND you have a condensing boiler, AND you live in a place where it gets below freezing, what ARE you going to do with all that condensate?

Trust me on this, there are a LOT more untreated condensate systems out there then there are treated systems, and other than the loss of cast iron drains, I've not heard of any negative feed back.

ME

Timco

Paul Rohrs covered much of this in the current PHC News. Page 24. Great article.

Tim

Derheatmeister

My Brother studied waste water Treatment in Germany we had this conversation and or post before and as stated before it is a no Go! I have seen it on neutral PH wells and it is ugly. That is why the German Codes do not allow it!

And how hard is it anyway to run it through an bucket with $5 worth of Stones?.

Peace....Think "Green"

Happy Jake

To reiterate - condesate IS neutralized

The condensate I wish to allow to drain via ABS to the septic DOES INDEED get neutralized.

The local inspector is not allowing any condensate to enter the system. He prefers to to send it through the wall and make a muddy mess in the sideyard.

Also, and I don't want to make anyone feel bad, it doesn't freeze here. I use 38 degrees as a design day

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Derheatmeister

Plant Pine Trees !

So you shall make him/her or his department responsible for any consequential damages and have him/her sign off if it did freeze and back up and or if someone slip's and fall's on the muddy mess in the side yard.

And then again maybe you shall recommend planting some Pine trees or some Moos or any lower PH loving vegetation that will thrive on this and keep the muddy mess from happening.

Or is it time to get a Bio chemist involved?

Or if the Heath department guys that actually studied this and are signing off on the septic systems remember what they learned in the studies shall have the final answers to this!

what do ya think?
Time to call them out!

Roland_18

Condensate

How much condensate are we talking about? Gallons per day? and at what pH?

Jamie Hall

Part of the reason,

perhaps, that we seem to have a variety of opinions is that the subject is complicated! I would (background: PE with one of my specialties being Sanitary Engineering -- including 40 years of design/maintenance experience with waste water treatment) be very inclined to say that it is probably not a good idea to run untreated condensate from combustion into a septic system -- and, for that matter, not such a good idea to run it into a French drain or leaching pit, either. The primary contaminants, if I may call them such, are nitric acid, sulphuric acid, and carbonic acid. While I doubt that it would actually kill a septic system (remember, they're biological systems, not just pipes and tanks) unless the amount of condensate is large in comparison to ordinary sanitary waste, it might reduce the activity, which would not be good.

That said, neutralizing it (marble or dolomite chips would be my suggestion) would eliminate the problem quite completely; you wind up with nothing worse than 'hard' water.

There is the point on maintenance, however: the chips will be consumed in the neutralization process, and would have to be replaced. I expect that this is where the concern of the sanitary inspectors mentioned comes from, and also the quite legitimate concern of installers. Basically, can you trust the homeowner to ensure that the maintenance is done and, in today's litigious society, if it isn't done, who winds up picking up the tab?

And that's not an engineering problem!

Mark Eatherton

You can't trust the homeowner to do ANYTHING, and I know, 'cause

I AM one :-)

To all companies associated with required annual maintenance. Put it in your Outlook, Dateminder or whatever calender program you use to bug the consumer when their year is up. If you leave it up to them, they will forget it and not call you until it becomes crisis management.

And keep bugging them until the service is performed. Don't just call them once. Keep calling until yo have an appointment.

ME

Derheatmeister

Up to 5 Gallons

I have systems that are condensing like crazy and that is what you want because the system is at it's peak when this happens ,on some systems i get 5 gallons of around a 4 to 5 PH. Kinda like Orange juice i was told.

Just imagine everyone does this what will happen to the Water treatment plants and the Concrete Pipes that are Buried in the Streets?

Nikolai

Neutralazer

What kind of rocks they use in Germany to neutralaze Acidic Condensate; lamestone, marble or something else?

Derheatmeister

They use Limestone or also the pellets that Viessmann sells, but limestone is cheaper.

MIke_Jonas

I treat it first

I've always been afraid of causing the early demise of residential sump pumps.

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Jim_64

limestone can migrate and clog pipes

i don't know about migration, but limey water in contact with urine sure will clog pipes