Buderus G125 vd EK 2000

dana_3

both excellent pieces of equipment.two questions to ask ? how well do the technicians know the products there installing (logomatic/syst 2000 manager). and who will be there at 2am to fix it

carl_nh

Buderus G125/115 or EK 2000

HI all,

We are NH coast have 2800SF central chimney cape 55-60,000BTU heat loss, 158' FHW BB in 3 zones on two levels (remodeled/insulated and new BB 1998) and tankless coil using Ulitmate boiler 27 yrs young. Currently use 750-800 gal /year. No failure yet but it tends to soot over the year and controls/air vents are prone to failing so we planning the replacement proactively and also want to save fuel ultimately and have piece of mind.

Investigations/readiing here and around have narrowed field to Buderus/EK 2000 and have yet to select a compnay to install but getting bids.

Technically I like the S2000 for it's efficiency, quiet operation and overall low mass concept and one contractor is suggesting the EK1, one Grundfos Circ w/3 zone valves, and a Bradford white 40 DHW tank/circ loop (instead of HX from EK. Same contractor has ability to install alternate systems ala buderus but I determined thats not where his interest is from our first meeting.

Concerns: Steel-EK 2000 - Does this make it a 20 yr system vs Cast Iron 30Yr? Improvements have been made I know however which system is most reliable year over year in your estimation? What about the controls/system management on the S2000 - trouble down the road?

The Buderus installer/co we have met with would use 3 Grundfos circs valved, no zone valves, the St120 tank on a circ then its a matter of choosing a boiler.

Buderus - Investigations have led to the G115 or G125 and technically I prefer the G125 for the blue flame for no soot/efficiency (and think this should be the std burner) however the cost delta/adder of $2K+ to the 125 for 1-2% efficiency gain are not favorable to ROI. Granted this includes the logimatic, tiger loop, heated oil, and Bud burner.

The logimatic operation essentially controls the circ temp based on exterior temp, so technically this could be done manually by adjusting the zone temp for say 160 in Mar to Nov and 180 Dec-Feb to achieve a similar result/savings on the G115. Is this a reasonable approach (I know Tekmar could also be installed at lower cost)

Other questions/concerns on the Buderus. Are these units noisy? Is the G125 quieter than the G115 due to shrouding and DV air makeup? Should we get a Riello BF3 with DV air for the G115? (we have top/bottom air M/U in rooom)

Is the Logimatic troublesome/prone to failure? How difficult is it to "map to the home" as one installer indicated it takes some time tune this in for the house but they would show us how.


At the end of the day, we are making a large investment that we will live with for a long time so want to make an informed decision.

I am on the fence with what appears higher efficiency lower operating cost of the EK2000 and lower initial cost than the G125, however the cast vs steel and techical aspects of the G125 are very compelling.

Comments, suggestions and recommendations are appreciated.

carl_nh

Support

Dana,

Valid points - The G125BE is new to this region (we are not looking at the GB125BE) with few techs "certified" and S2000 is known by many (too many?)

Who is there @ 2AM is important however - all co's that are under consideration are local (2-10 mi) and provide suport 24/7 so while this is a factor it is not my main goal by posting. Part of the decision is based on time in business, staffing and other factors (installation/support/neatness/gut feelings) which are important but that was not the question raised. Also Buderus HQ and tech staff are less than 30 Mi (not that makes a diff @ 2AM)

Carl

Jim Franklin

If you go with the G125, make sure you have extra parts for their specialized propriatary burner.

Most companies DO NOT stock the parts, including the special nozzle that will be required and finding someone that is familiar with the burner will be like winning the lottery.

I'm a big fan of the EK series and also am factory trained for the G125.

I agree Buderus makes fine heating equipment and I've installed alot of them, but , I just installed an EK1 Frontier in my home yesterday, if that says anything.

While I've also heard the analogy of an EK being a 20 year boiler compared to the Buderus being a 40 year, I have yet to see the 15 year old Buderus, but, I HAVE seen 20 year old EK's still running.

The bottom line is, if you refuse to service your heating system on a yearly basis, it doesn't matter who makes it, your gonna destroy it with neglect.

I think if one goes to the Energy Kinetics web site, many myths will be dispelled.

Good luck with your choice.

GW

options

wow, you have the jargon down pat; you sound more in tune than many heating and plumber guys.

I've never woked on EK, other than removing them.

I am pretty thrilled with the g125. We have three out there. Buderus should be commended for bringing a burner to market the must be set up with real tools. It's hard for me to communicate how important that is...anyone can horse around a conventional burner. Is this a good thing or not? It depends on what your interests are. I like the fact that, properly set up, the BE burner is at maximum efficientcy (it's even based on outdoor temperature).

The 2107 control is cake, anyone who says it's complicated should be less-considered.

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Erich_3

System 2000

I would go with the System 2000 but I would use the EK1 Frontier which is available as a complete package with the System 2000 40 gal DHW storage tank. This way you have a totally integrated system instead of parts from here and there. I would also get a bid from another System 2000 installer. The fact that a boiler is made out of steel does not mean that it has a shorter life than a cast iron boiler. There are many grades of steel and it is not hard to find steel boilers that are 50 years old. On the other hand, there are cast iron boilers that have cracks in under five years of usage. System 2000 is a high quality product that will reduce your fuel bills.

Thorp Thomas

Need another quote?

We are in your neighborhood with 40 years in the business and I'm Buderus G125 certified. I have had to change out way too many of S2K to ever think about installing them, I have enough heartaches with other junk that supposed to be the best.

Erich_3

Replacements of System 2000

What was wrong with all of those System 2000 boilers that you replaced that was not able to be fixed? Do you have before and after pictures of those replacements?

Jim Franklin

I'd also like to learn more about his comment.

Many of the problems I encounter are because of negligence,lack of maintenance, or being serviced by unqualified people.

Looking forward to his comments.

rich pickering

Questions & Subjective Opinions

Gents,

I do appreciate the feedback to date, and in fact the S2000 co's say "we have replaced x# Buderus" and Buderus co's say we "service/replaced x# S2000" so I recognize this is highly subjective based on each installation and customer situation since customers of one type/brand that are not happy will opt for the "other system". This boils down (No pun intended) to the installation and follow on service I would imagine.

This said, I still have questions S2000-Buderus 115/125 raised in the intial posting that have not been addressed.

Noise- I know the S2000 is quiet is the G125BE in relative terms noisy or similar to S2000? Then is the G115 a "noisy burner" with the Riello F3 and does the BF3 with DV reduce this?

Efficiency - Can anyone validate the actual consumption/reduction of S2000 vs G125BE (Not GB125BE condensing)as I see typical gallon per year savings from S2000 but little on the G125BE to date.

Cost/Performance: Can anyone quantify the G125BE $2500 price delta to the G115 and what would I add to the G115 to get close to the G125 - e.g. tekmar etc. Also the System 2000 is within $500 of the G115/ST120 configuration all else being equal (valves,vents/circs being the same)so is a top contender based on value in initial cost and fuel savings.

Thanks

ChasMan

Controls.

This is a comment on the Buderus controls. And take it from where it is coming, a homeowner who has never owned either the Buderus or the Tekmar. I do own an outdoor reset with very similar capabilities to the one that Buderus suplies and I like it but its dead end technology. It does what it does and no more. It doesn't communicate or integrate with anything. If I had to do it over again. I would use TEKMAR controls as they have more functionality and integrated controls for zones and pumps along with the outdoor reset. The curve on the controler also provides additional functionality in a more logical way.

The only thing I would be wary of on the Tekmar side, and again, I am not speaking from experience with their outdoor reset. I have a couple of their room thermostats which are uper expensive for what they are. They are wonderfully accurate and very adjustable but they are not user friendly and they have a bug in the 4x a day program when you near midnight that forces you to set the time to either 20 minutes before or 20 minutes after midnight.

Also, once you have an outdoor reset there is no comparing it to turning an aquastat up and down a few times a year. Mine changes all day every day and I just love the darn thing.

ChasMan

Noise.

Noise is highly subjective. The Reillo F3 burner in my mind is not quiet. The motor and pump are fairly quiet. About as loud as a window AC unit on low with the sound box on. With the sound box off they make more noise than an old becket. The exhaust noise on mine is quite loud. They make a muffler. I put cement board in the ceiling above it and then drywalled over it to keep it to a dull roar. I have heard people say you can't tell it is on. Lol.. thats crazy talk. Its at least as loud as an outdoor AC unit.

GW

loud

I'm not familiar with the EK, isn't set up with a basic Beckett AFG? If it is (or carlin, or whatever), the riello F3 is louder. If you go with the BF, it's quieter. The G125 is the least noisy; when that shroud is on it's amazingly quiet.

Can you side wall vent or must you use your chimney? It's probably not wise to chimney vent a G125, unless you drop an insulated chimney liner.

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GW

Efficiency

Whats the EK rated at? I'm guessing the G125 would be just a bit more efficient, especially with its outdoor reset.

Keep in mind, your changes of "fine tuning" drop with regular burners. Uness you know as much as the burner guy that sets up the EK, and stand over his shoulder, you won't know. I wince when I see old clunky boilers running at "84%".... yeah, right, a 50 year old steam boiler at 84...maybe when you first light it up??????? That's what I'm saying. I wonder how accurate some of these readings are out there.

With the G125, I'd be thrilled to show a home owner how it is set up.... 'cause it's so cool. Setting the air pressure and the o2 is good stuff.

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GW

controls

you said "Is the Logimatic troublesome/prone to failure? How difficult is it to "map to the home" as one installer indicated it takes some time tune this in for the house but they would show us how."

Huh?? If you put your most used zone on with the Buderus BFU sensor, it's all automatic. Sounds like this guy doesn't know all the ins and outs with Buderus. Or if he does, he sure didn't pass along his confidense to you very well.

By the time you drop $xxx on a Tekmar, you're not tons of money away from the 125. I think the days of shopping for "cheap" heating systems are coming to an end. One more spike in oil price should do the trick.

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Jim Franklin

As I've stated before, I like both companies and will install them without hesitation.

I prefer the S2000 , it is the most efficient oil fired boiler out there at this time.

It's easy to install and is not hard to set up, the only thing proprietary is the manager. The burner parts are standard and carried my most everyone.

Any competent tech should be able to get it going, where as the 125 with need specialized equipment with a trained technician.

My statement is to only make you aware that your choices of service personel, will be limited, due to the short period that this system has been available.

I like the EK over any reset system due to the fact that it maintains 180* water. Most standard fin radiated homes figure the heat loss based on 180* water and if the home is under radiated people may start to complain about comfort.

Plus it post purges , that's where the true saving comes into play.

If your looking at radiant or an over radiated home, we're talking something different then.

Don't be fooled into believing that the efficiency results you get from your combustion analyzer is the true efficiency of your system... it's just not true, the 125 gets it's efficiency by reducing stack temps, make sure your chimney will be suitable for it's installation, you may need a chimney liner, if you go with it.

Buderus Direct Vents and EK's are similar, they are extremely quiet during operation, that's not so with a standard Buderus with Riello.

Howard Emerson

From an EK owner

Hi Carl,
Probably the most important consideration for you is your water quality as it relates to the Flat-Plate HX that the EK uses.

We love our EK-1 system, which we got from an installer (Rob Obrien)whose license plate says 'BIASI', so he installs many different types of systems. He gave us info on several systems, and we made a choice.

He was one of 5 installers to give estimates to us here on Long Island

We also have very soft water here, so mineral build-up is not an issue. If you don't have really soft water, that is something to keep in mind.

As has been stated: It's the post-purge in the EK's that really sets them apart in terms of seasonal-efficiency, and ultimately where the big savings are.

Best of luck,
Howard
http://www.howardemerson.com/

Erich_3

No Reply From Heat Kits Inc / Premier Package

Did you notice that there was no reply from Heat Kits Inc concerning all the System 2000 boilers that he has replaced? I know that if I had spent good money on a System 2000 and since it has a limited lifetime warranty on the energy manager control and on the pressure vessel I doubt if I would go out and install a Buderus. The claim is even more dubious when there would not be any fuel savings. Carl, if you do get the System 2000 make sure you get the Premier package. This includes the pre-piped and pre-wired Smart pump. It is a much quicker and much neater installation when you order the Premier package.

Jim Franklin

I do agree with the Premier option, including the LWCO and Hot Water Zone kit for those concerned about their FHX.

Jim Franklin

Noise- I know the S2000 is quiet is the G125BE in relative terms noisy or similar to S2000? Then is the G115 a "noisy burner" with the Riello F3 and does the BF3 with DV reduce this?

Both are similar in operating noise. Riello would be the noisiest on a 115. If you go with the G115 make sure there is room to install a 24" piece of vent pipe off the breech to help quiet the noise, or you could buy the avaiable muffle.

Efficiency - Can anyone validate the actual consumption/reduction of S2000 vs G125BE (Not GB125BE condensing)as I see typical gallon per year savings from S2000 but little on the G125BE to date.

The G125BE is so new, I can't believe there is any data comparing the 2. The savings with the 125 comes in 2 ways lower stack temps along with Logamatic for OR, not so with the S2000.

Cost/Performance: Can anyone quantify the G125BE $2500 price delta to the G115 and what would I add to the G115 to get close to the G125 - e.g. tekmar etc. Also the System 2000 is within $500 of the G115/ST120 configuration all else being equal (valves,vents/circs being the same)so is a top contender based on value in initial cost and fuel savings.

Add the Logamatic 2107, Tekmar 260, etc.

GW

can you explain

when you say "Any competent tech should be able to get it going, where as the 125 with need specialized equipment with a trained technician."

What equipment do you need that any other competent technician would not have? I'm not trying to be a nut buster. When I stated "real tools" I was somewhat sarcastic. Should we try to establish whether a competent tech should be able to operate a manometer?

That was my point....that's what i was attempting to communicate in my earlier post. If you bring your car to the local inner city garage for a timing belt change, you might not expect that your car will have their top-dollar guy doing the job (or, maybe you will, who knows). If you have a Euro car and bring it to the dealer, your chances go up as far as better technical ability. Or, maybe it doesn't???

So, not to be a nut buster, your comment and my comment are in agreement.

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Jim Franklin

Gary, I'm talking reality here, and I'll bet that most oil techs don't carry manometers or for that matter, pump pressure gauges capable of 500#.

Why would they need them?

There are many that don't even have electronic combustion analyzers, but choose to use the old shake and bake.

This burners is not like a conventional burner, and the only way you can even purchase this boiler is by having a certificate proving you've been trained on it, unless of course you've circumvented that process.

I just can't agree , that anyone can service this burner 2 AM in the morning and for that matter, I don't think that most guys will run out to purchase a $700+ service kit just in case the service call does comes in.

I will agree that Buderus products are top of the line, as a matter af fact I'll be installing a G115/Riello w/ tank tomorrow, but if I was looking just for job security, I be putting these in hand over fist.

Certainly if a homeowner has their heart set on one, I wouldn't hestitate to install one for them.

I believe making home owners aware, that there are not alot of techs trained on this burner yet, is important, so they can make it part of their consideration to purchase this setup.

GW

OK

fair enough. If the original poster wants a guy that doesn't even have elec comb analyzer, so be it.

I'm stricken how we heating guys try to talk not only the home owner from buy the top-of-the-line stuff, be WE also talk ourselves out of recommending it. I'll stop; I'm really starting to drift here.

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Bob Bona_4

I'd like to know

from the pro-EK installers if they ever had to go back and take one apart for cleaning.

I did as a serviceman for years, and every year was dismayed at the amount of residue built up in the HX. I say residue..ash technically because it was bad enough for me to contact the factory after seeing it time and time again in unit after unit. They claimed, even after the bypass was set right, combustion air was adequate, and burner settings were right, that this was "normal". I don't care what Brookhaven says, the post purge may wring out some extra efficiency, but in real time, HX deposits make that silly.

I have changed more than a couple of target walls after only 3-4 years of service. I have had to junk quite a few flat plate HX's due to tough water. The "indirect" tank (glorified electric water heater) has marginal insulation.

Not a problem w/ Buderus.

I've seen enough, time after time, year after year, to avoid the EK. Good concept, ravaged by real world variables.

Erich_3

Amulet

Was the amulet replaced when you worked on these boilers?

Bob Bona_4

as far

as I remember, no, they were intact. I do remember despite the amulet, the end cones showed heat stress cracks- typical of AFG used for 0 to slightly positive draft units.

Jim Franklin

All boilers produce fly ash, that's a by-product of combustion.

That's 1 reason all boilers need to be maintained anually.

Every boiler has ash build up to some degree, it's just that some have less usually because it gets sucked up the chimney along with the heat that's made.

Again I'll reiterate that poor installation practice,lack of maintenance, and service by untrained individuals are the major causes of system failures and problems.

The flat plate HX problem you describe is an installation problem, the installer should of checked to see it the home had hard water, an indirect may of been a better solution.

I have never seen a chamber that had to be replaced in the short time you suggest , while it could happen, I would suspect that it had to be , due to either damage or 1 or the 3 reasons most heating systems become problems.

Jim Franklin

Beckett AFG burner head stress cracks will be found on most every boiler and furnace.

They're located in a place subject to high temps and over time they need to be replaced.

While a troubled system could lead to premature failure, that's not always the case.

Bob Bona_4

it was

alarming to see so much ash built up at the smoke pipe outlets, practically blocking it. Good thing they have puff switches. Personally, I'd rather see just a dusting on a HX surface after one year-insert make and model. At least I'll know the heat transfer was fairly decent over the year rather than pretty constipated as time goes on.

No question that hard water can clog even indirect dip tubes- I have seen it numerous times- and that issue needs to adressed regardless of flat plate vs. tank. I prefer the better tolerance a tank has to water conditions, just my thinking..we have a lot of well water here in rural CT.

My EK experiences go back to around 1991-92. That's when the rep from NJ brought up an EK2 in a Dodge caravan We installed it together, I was impressed with the modular aspect of the piping components. I think they are ok, but knowing them pretty intimately, they aren't a first choice for me, being intimate with other brands as well

Hank_5

Premature deterioration of the combustion chamber (there is no target wall per se) generally occurs when the CO2 is adjusted higher than mfr's specs of 10-11%, quite often up to 12 or 13%. Also, the system is not intended to operate under positive pressure. What tends to be the norm of reasoning for combustion chamber replacements is that a small crack appears in the back. That's normal and doesn't affect safety or proper combustion.

A lot of changes have occured since the early 90's. My first System 2000 installs were about 1994 and I installed them until 2001 when I changed career paths somewhat. I saw quite a few changes in that time.

The Frontier, which constitutes most of their sales now, traps most of the ash in the flue box so annual cleaning is a snap. Drop the door, quick brush of the flue passage, suck out the ash from the flue box and close it up. I've never found an ash buildup even approaching what I used to see in some of the direct vent boilers I serviced.

As far as minerals clogging the PE, install a Scale Stopper in the cold water makeup line. They are also very effective for tankless coils that scale up. Some of the water in my area is on the hard side, including municipal water, and I used to clean a lot of coils. I started installing the Scale Stopper and never had to acid clean the coil again.

GW

> alarming to see so much ash built up at the smoke

> pipe outlets, practically blocking it. Good thing

> they have puff switches. Personally, I'd rather

> see just a dusting on a HX surface after one

> year-insert make and model. At least I'll know

> the heat transfer was fairly decent over the year

> rather than pretty constipated as time goes on.

> No question that hard water can clog even

> indirect dip tubes- I have seen it numerous

> times- and that issue needs to adressed

> regardless of flat plate vs. tank. I prefer the

> better tolerance a tank has to water conditions,

> just my thinking..we have a lot of well water

> here in rural CT.

>

> My EK experiences go back to

> around 1991-92. That's when the rep from NJ

> brought up an EK2 in a Dodge caravan We

> installed it together, I was impressed with the

> modular aspect of the piping components. I think

> they are ok, but knowing them pretty intimately,

> they aren't a first choice for me, being intimate

> with other brands as well





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GW

Jim

You're saying the burner ideally should not operate in a system 2000?

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Mad Dog_2

Exactly Dana

We of course are preferential to Buderus, but EK is a nice system too....go for the company that has better service and references. Mad Dog

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Frank_62

buderus or EK

Just read your question and hope this helps. We have installed many buderus boilers and very few EK only because we prefer cast so I can't speak to the EK. Having said that me experiance would suggest that you ask your installer for a list of references you can contact for more information. Your heat loss is low and your BB is not excessive. The buderus 115 would be just fine but the 125 is quieter but not by much. The circs valved as opposed to the zone valves is a much better option. If you lose the circ on the zone valves you lose all your heat as opposed to only the one zone. It sounds like you have your unit in a seperate room closed off from another room the Bf3 with dv would be the best choice. If you currently don't have a problem with air in the oil you won't need the tiger loop although for the extra it's a good choice. The 2107 provides constant circulation to one zone and should be matted with a room sensor on the main (first floor zone)it will provide consistent temp like you have never experianced before ( I have this in my own home as do my family members all 9 of us) the down side if there is one is the other heat zone operates of boiler temp provided for main zone but it has preseted no problem. DHW runs independently off the 2107 and has priority.As far as the st120 goes I have it some of the family has it and I don't really like it although it works good . I prefer matting a weil mclein gold or super store to the boiler. One note we've encountered with the buderus water heaters warranty service is tough,you absolutely have to check your annode rod annually and replace as needed. Super store seems to best for warranty issues. Our customers have seen as much as 40percent reduction in oil consumption based on gallons used not annual money spent as we ask then to keep track of the gallons so we can get accurate feed back. I sure either system would be fine.If it were me I go with the 115 wbf3dv and super store ggod luck

jhfsdhf2171289

carl boilier replacements

I live in your area and work in the trade. When the estimators are selling oil heat jobs they sell BUDERUS with Reillo and BUDERUS controls package.Each quote includes a 5year clean cumbustion tune package we have zero problems with this equipment and happy clients.This is product Irecommend to friends family and any who ask.
jon

Happy Jake

S2000

Thanks for the advice - if we do the S2000 we will not do the HX they supply but an indirect DHW tank and circ since the S2000 HX on well water could be prone to plugging (at least that what i have read and heard here)

Happy Jake

Frank

Frank, so appreciate your response and others too - you have hit the nail on the head and addressed my questions with answers from experience. I agree with your assessment and feedback.

I have been on travel the last 10 days so limited reading or responses have been possible. I am getting final quotes in this week and next for a decision in Feb and install in March likely.

I am finding installation and cost deltas come down to circs vs zone valves, vs flanged ball valves on circs add considerable cost to the overall installation. I am favoring independent grundfos circs, and flanged ball valves on the zones even tho this is several $100's more.

We are leaning G125 vs S2000 and the remaining question is the Buderus horizontal tank vs the ST120 allowing that the ST120 is a "low cost entry" for the US market and the horizontal tanks are "original Buderus design" - Any opinions on the Buderus stacked horizontals?

Thanks in advance,

Carl

Erich_3

Scale Stopper Kit

If you use the factory Scale Stopper Kit you will not have that problem.

http://www.energykinetics.com/additionalProducts.shtml

Happy Jake

SW Jan 19

SW,

Been traveling last bit so delayed response. Thanks for your input, re noise and stack temps, chimney refits. The install will be a center chimney relatively new flue tiles so should be OK with low stack temps - we are not looking at a condensing unit.

Regarding the comment on the G125 service kit and gauges for 500#. The pump pressure on the G125 is higher 145-190 so yes you will need a 250# gauge. Also I understand the service kit are gaskets, nozzles, electrodes and bits that are specific to the G125 and @ 2 AM service tech will not have these on his truck. For this point I am getting a multi yr contract up front. I can and may buy the service items/attend the class as well longer term.

You and Gary both have valid points pro/con the S2000 or Buderus and the new "stuff" like the G125 and it does come down to what we are comfortable with at the end of the day. Gary re your comment "cheap systems" there are no cheap systems any more since it boils down to installation and support and the difference is peanuts factored over 10-20 years. Are we all looking to get a good value - yes - are we cheap no.

Thanks again guys and I will be posting soon re selection of a system.

Carl

Bob Bona_4

don't count

on it. It may sort of address minor blips in water chemistry but I doubt it addresses everything from iron to ph to grains.

Bob Bona_4

little

lower output on the horizontal tanks for the same gallonage, but you'd probably never notice. There is no "price point" (ugh, I hate that tired expression) tank, they are built the same. The ST is more common. The ST200 is a pretty versatile size for the average family of 4-ish.

I've done my share of LT style, it's not my first choice just in case the tank ever has to come out, hanging a 600 lb boiler from the floor joists just doesn't feel comfortable But, they have their place in tight applications.