Header too low?

Brad White_203

The ideal is at least a 24 inch initial rise as you said, but if the header is a "dropped header" (meaning the boiler risers turn after a decent rise then drop into the top of the first collecting main), that then can be less than the 24 inches.

The idea is that the further the steam must travel, the more direct moisture the steam will leave behind- I am sure you understand this.

Increasing the sizes of those initial risers, using all available tappings, each or together, are another way to reduce exit velocities. I have seen even boilers with "factory recommended/allowed" single tappings benefit from using the second tapping. When borderline, I would do it. If it is required, don't mess with the instructions.

If you have a short rise, a re-pipe is usually required at some level.

I have few suggestions to insulating a concealed pipe, one that would be as good as if visible. Blowing in fire-retardant insulation (mineral wool) is the best I can suggest when "insulating blindly".

Any relief valve should be piped to within 6 inches of the floor and in a safe place. Murphy's Law says that your kids or grandkids will be playing next to it when it releases.

But do post photos. That will help a lot.

Marcelo_2

Hi, first winter in new house and struggling with our steam system. We have a one-pipe system that heats very unevenly. One bedroom on the second floor heats perfectly but the other room (same sized radiator) and the rest of the house barely heats at all. (Most of the radiators hiss when the system is on - and when we first turned the system on the main vents spewed moist steam all night.)

I read Dan's book and noticed a few things with the near-boiler piping that have me worried:

1. The header on our Burnham V83 oil-fired boiler is only 16 inches above the glass water gauge, not 24 inches as Dan and the installation manual require, unless I'm measuring the wrong pipe. But there is only one riser and it turns almost as soon as it exits the burner. Would this cause uneven heating? How can this be fixed? (It was installed in 2004. I can add photos if needed.)

2. There are two supply mains. One of them is insulated for a few feet but not insulated once it runs under the finished basement ceiling. Is there anyone to insulate it from an opening at one end of the room or do I have to rip open the ceiling?

(I also noticed the safety valve has no piping.)

Thanks for any advice.

Marcelo

some pictures of the near-boiler piping

I'm very sorry for the slow response. (we had to unexpectedly travel, twice, since I first posted) Here are two pictures of my boiler, front and side views. I can upload more if needed.

I don't think there is a dropped header as you described.

I also called my heating company and they sent a technician who told me that the piping was ok even though the initial rise is less than 24 inches since there are two takeoffs that leave the header going up to the supply mains, which are more than 24 inches above water line. But I'm not so sure?

Another problem I have noticed is that one of the two main vents doesn't seem to be working properly. It hisses steam nonstop if I turn up the thermostat to try to heat the cold part of the house. This can't be right - since this steam will ruin the wood joists and floors above. Could this be the reason we have such uneven heat?

I've included pictures of the two vents. (the shinny one is the bad one) I think I should replace them. Any suggestions which new vents I should get? Should I replace both or just the one that seems to be failing?

Thanks again for your time and advice.

TonyBal_2

That piping..

I would trust your "I'm not so sure". That piping looks pretty funky. There are others on this site who can do a far better job than I describing how to proceed with the near boiler piping...but I can definitely say that the second takeoff (on the right in pic 2), the one where the run of the tee reduces the pipe size, that ain't good. There has got to be water laying around in that tee causing you headaches!

Erich_3

Where Are You Located?

Marcello, why don't you post where you are located and possibly you can find a steam expert here who really knows steam.

Unknown

Marcelo- The following is a link to the I&O manual for you boiler.

http://www.burnham.com/PDF/IO/V8H.pdf

Take a look on page 34. It has the proper measurements.
Your boiler should also be piped with using the two exit ports from the boiler. Using both ports slows the velocity of the steam.

As was already mentioned the reduced tee closest to your equalizer pipe is a big "NO-NO" as it allows water to pool and will cause wet steam /water hammer.

As Erich suggested, I'd find a pro on this board near`you and they can easily straighten your system out. Who ever worked on your boiler doesn't understand steam!

Marcelo

trouble in rockville centre, ny

thanks for the feedback. it was installed by a local heating company - the previous homeowner gave me all the paperwork. i was afraid they had piped the boiler wrong and i'd have to redo it, which is what it sounds like.

i'm in rockville centre, ny - and would be happy to have a nearby pro on this board check it out.

should i leave the main vents alone for now?

Steamhead (in transit)

The Main Vents

Should be replaced. They are most likely too small and the one has failed. Leaking vents kill boilers. How long are your mains? That will tell us what size vents to add.

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Phil_17

Start with new vents

Vents should never release steam. If they are then replace them (or in a real pinch try the boiling them in vinegar trick mentioned in TLAOSH). If you don't own any of Dan's books, buy one. TLAOSH is the one to own if you're only going to buy one.

On your main vents, you can post the sizes and lengths of your mains and Steamhead may reply with what you need for vents. Myself, I'd likely start with a Gorton #1 on each (use the #2's if you can afford them, it's almost impossible to over-vent a main), and see what effect that has. Once the mains are venting quickly move on to the radiators and replace the ones in the slow/cold rooms with larger vents. Only change one thing at a time, as the system dynamics are complicated and you won't be able to tell what effect any one change has on the system if you do them in batches.

On your piping the header is low, but the real problem is the reducing T where the second main takes off. That's going to trap a puddle in the main which may contribute to wet steam. It's a shame, because there are just two relatively small details (height and reduction in the wrong place) which are compromising an otherwise reasonably well done set of piping.

Marcelo

I took some measurements

Both main supply pipes are about 8 inches in diameter.

One is in the unfinished part of the basement and easy to follow. it runs about 14 feet west then turns and runs north about 22 feet along the front of the house to one of the main vents.

The second main runs about 22 feet north in the finished basement ceiling (this stretch of pipe is not insulated) then turns west and runs about 12 feet to the main vent that hisses steam.

Marcelo

oops

i meant the mains are about 8 inches in circumference, which is about 2.5 inches in diameter.

Steamhead (in transit)

With an outside diameter of 2.5-inch

then the inside diameter of your mains is 2-inch. We go by inside diameter on this type of pipe.

Put a Gorton #2 vent on each main and watch the steam distribute nice and fast.

As for the near-boiler piping- if it's 24-inches above the normal waterline you might be OK. But that second tee that reduces the pipe is wrong, wrong, wrong. Since you'd have to take the header mostly apart to fix that, might as well repipe the whole thing with a nice drop header. Make the horizontal portion of the header 2-1/2" instead of 2" and you'll get even better steam.

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Roland_17

steam heat specialist

Try these folks;
Nassau County Steam Heating Specialist!
Matthew Sweeney
License: #579 Master Plumber, Nassau County
901 Second Ave
New Hyde Park, NY 11040
Phone: 516-358-2835
Fax: 516-358-2835
Email: plumbing3c@gmail.com
Website: http://www.triplecrownonline.com
Specialty: Steam heating specialist
Company Description: Specialists in the Lost Art of Steam Heating. We solve problems others say can't be solved.

Dennis Foley

The equalizer line

This near boiler piping needs to be replaced.
Besides being too low, and only using one boiler tapping, and having that reducing tee in the wrong place, look at the horizontal section of the equalizer line. That's a big cause of noise as well, especially after the boiler has run for a while.
The only thing done right is the black pipe.