Steam Heat - Again!

Jay Stillinger

Jay Stillinger

Steam heat

Greetings to all!

I've narrowed down a problem with my steam heat, but I still need help. Recently I converted from a 30 yr old Weil/McClain oil boiler. I have a one-pipe steam heat system. Now I have a Weil/McClain gas boiler (I don't have access to the exact model right now, but I can get it if needed.) Before converting, I had no problem at all with any water hammer or spitting vents. Since converting, my daughter's bedroom radiator has been hammering and the vent spitting.

I've narrowed the hammering to solely being from her radiator because I've closed the valve and have had no hammering whatsoever for a couple of weeks.

What I've done so far:

Bought and installed new vent on radiator - still spitting!
Shimmed the radiator toward the pipe. - still hammering.

This room is on the upper floor.

I hope someone can help.

Thanks

Jamie Hall

Not that many things...

that can cause both water hammer and a spitting vent! In one pipe steam, the condensate (water) has to be able to flow away from the radiator (or anywhere else it forms) back to the boiler. The steam is progressing the other way, at speed. Anything that can interfere with the flow of water back to the boiler will do it. For starters: check and make sure that the valve to her radiator is really and truly fully open. They've been known to seem open, but be only partly open. Then check the entire pipe back from the radiator to the basement. Any horizontal section -- however short -- shouldn't be exactly horizontal. It must pitch down towards the boiler (or up to the radiator, if you like!) anywhere from a quarter to a half inch per foot -- more is better here; that isn't a maximum but is an absolute minimum. Shim as needed to get it that way.

Why did it start with the new boiler? Hard to say; you don't mention whether the takeoff for this radiator is closest to the boiler, but if it is there is a chance that you are getting wet steam due to near-boiler piping problems, and that the only pipe it gets into is this one. Doesn't sound likely... could also be that the new boiler simply puts out more steam! And what was marginal before is over the edge.

But check all the pipe runs first.

Jay Stillinger

I appreciate your help. The easiest (if nothing breaks) is to check the valve. As far as the pipe itself, much of it is between the ceiling and floor, so to check its' pitch would be quite a project.

Another question: Being my new air vent started spitting, and, as I understand it, this is primarily caused by being clogged - would it possibly help to take the radiator out and flush it to get out any dirt and scale?

Thanks for any input.

nicholas bonham-carter

spitting vents

try raising the whole radiator. in some cases you could tip the radiator towards the valve, and LOWER the efective height of the inlet to the radiator[ causing aenough of a low pocket for condensate to collect].

other potential problems assoc. with a new boiler could be pressure be too high-was a vaporstat installed? it's the only sure way to keep the pressure down below 6 oz. are you also certain of the correct installation of the steam mains above the boiler?--nbc

Jay Stillinger

Thanks, Nicholas

Can you give me an idea of what a vapostat looks like? I'm a laymen when it comes to these things but there is a gadget above the psi gauge made by Honeywell which may be what you're referring to. Several weeks ago I took the Manufacturer's manual and compared measurements on the piping and everything seemed ok. The thing I wondered about, however, is it seems the Hartford loop is quite small compared to what I see in diagrams - don't know if that means anything. Question: If the steam mains were not installed accurately, wouldn't I have this problem with the entire system, not just the one feed and radiator?

Thanks again.

Unknown

got any?

Got any pictures of the new boiler and the near pipings?

Jay Stillinger

Photos

Here are pictures of the boiler. If you need any other angles, be glad to get them to you. Thanks for any help you might be able to give.

Jay Stillinger

photos

I had to send them to your email address. Didn't know how to post the photos on the message board.

Jay Stillinger

photos

I sent them to your personal email address, but I think I figured out how to post the photos here. Maybe other folks will have comments as well. I can post more photos if it helps.

Thanks for any and all help.

Jay Stillinger

photos

I sent them to your personal email address, but I think I figured out how to post the photos here. Maybe other folks will have comments as well. I can post more photos if it helps.

Thanks for any and all help.

Jay Stillinger

photos

I sent them to your personal email address, but I think I figured out how to post the photos here. Maybe other folks will have comments as well. I can post more photos if it helps.

Thanks for any and all help.

Jay Stillinger

Rjbphd,
I couldn't figure out how to post pictures here. So I sent them to your personal email. Hope that was alright.
Thanks, ahead of time for any help you can give.

Unknown

hi Jay

I did replied to your e mail after you sent me the pictures. As I stated the all the copper pipings on near boiler is piped wrong. Should be black iron pipe/fittings . Your hartford loop is piped too low. Another thing after looking at the picture. That angle pipe to your daughter's room is piped wrong as it "sided" instead of 45* which the condesate
and steam will "battle" each other, hence the banging... sorry the boiler will needs to be repiped by a real steam boiler pro.

Mad Dog_2

If the boiler was not properly cleaned.......

you could still have a problem with just one radiator. Bottom line...was this rad a problem BEFORE new boiler went in? Mad Dog

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Jay Stillinger

Rjb,

Thanks for the response, (I think - don't like what I'm hearing, though) I didn't get your first email for some reason.

Mad dog, The answer to your question is- no, I had no problem with that radiator until the new boiler was installed.

Thanks to everyone so far who have tried to help.

Jim Pompetti

Many times

Problem occur after installation and are due to many factors. Dry steam cleans the piping , mud settles in legs cause rads to spit water. Your new system may need to be skimmed. Returns my need attention . Hammer can be caused again numerous thing. From poorly design Hartford Loop , sagging mains , missing drips . If you have the manufactor instruction review them or take a look at THE LOST ART But if you have a good steam guy ,for a couple of hundred dollars be can give you a look at the system and give some suggestions.

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Unknown

from what I seen in pictures

I hope Jay can get those pictures posted on this site as others will chime in their inputs. Sorry for not liking my reply, from what I seen in pictures, the boiler do have ballvalve skiming set up (which should be cap or plugged while not in use for safety reason) the near boiler pipings are done in copper and improper installation. Header to small for double supply from boiler. One of the take off is "laid back" tee, hence the problem to his daughter's room. As others said, best to get the steamy deal books and have it redone correctly by a real steam boiler pros... where are you located?

Jay Stillinger

Jay Stillinger

Jay Stillinger

I've been trying to post the photos for everyone but can't seem to get it. If anyone is interested, I can send them to your emails directly. I'm grateful for all the interest and attempts to solve my problem. To answer Rjb's question, I'm located near Saratoga, New York. I really can't afford to have the thing re-piped right now. I'd be more apt to see if the company who installed the new boiler will make it right. They're not steam experts, though and probably wouldn't agree with the diagnosis.

nicholas bonham-carter

if you do a search here for "vaporstat", you will get a better idea of how important we think they are in the maintatinance of the under 16 oz. pressures we feel are necessary for good steam performance.
basically the standard pressuretrol is inaccurate at these low pressures.

about the piping and dealing with the installer:

look in the installation manual for your boiler and compare the pipe sizes and dimentions you have on the boiler now. i am not addressing the copper issue, but your manual may have definite words to say about its inadvisability. these pipe sizes etc. are a minimum standard for the system to work properly. also of extreme importance as others have said is the cleaning of the boiler--AN ABSOLUTE NECESSITY!!

with dan's book "the lost art of steam heating" you can learn to do much in the future to keep your system in the pink.

in dealling with the installer, point out:

1.no problems with old boiler, only after new one installed.

2.piping deviates from installation manual in layout and material. i have forgotten what make it is but a call to their tech support would be helpful.

hope all goes well and soon for you! you have come to right place for information as there is a total of several hundred years of steam experience to draw on.--nbc

Mitch_6

who did the install of the steam boiler?

If all remanded the same beyond the boiler and a radiator that has always worked well starts to act up after a boiler swap then odds are it is boiler related. Any number of near boiler issues can change the performance down the line.

Photos would help, getting a pro to look things over would be better.

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