Obama's Plan...

Radman

...with soy based ink and hemp fiber.
I think that branch of the government is already being built, but my guess is the penalties will be far different from those you suggested...
I can't wait until they start taxing the business owner that doesn't use a fleet of volts to run service & install.
I wonder if I can carry 1000 lbs of copper fittings & pipe with one of those?

gasfolk

\"The plan, as outlined by Obama, includes:

-- A "massive effort" to make federal buildings energy-efficient by replacing aging heating systems.... Obama said the effort would save taxpayers "billions of dollars each year" and put people back to work."

What does this mean for the industry and the trades? Any (non-political) last-minute advice for the next administration?

gf

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/12/06/obama_offers_highlights_of_his.html?hpid=topnews

DanHolohan

I think

it's a great time to get up to speed on steam traps and balanced air venting. I don't think all of our old buildings will be getting heat pumps or new hot-water systems.

Just because they're holding a recession doesn't mean you have to participate.

gasfolk

Overstated?

So, is the potential for savings exaggerated? Will increased efficiency mostly reflect reduced heat loss from replacement windows, better insulation, and the like? If so, then there is not much to discuss (and perhaps this topic is potentially too political to be safe).

Thanks,

gf

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

not a bit

I'm giving a presentation at EcoBuild in DC on Dec 10th & I'm addressing this exact issue. I worked from the question: Is your first best investment in energy conservation in upgrading the building's envelope or installing high eff modulating (heat pumps & A/C) or modulating/condensing (gas fossil fuel) or condensing (oil) appliances?

After crunching the numbers, guess who wins? High efficiency mechanical systems that modulate or modulate/condense. In addition to making the numbers work on paper, I'll be detailing a well-documented 5-year analysis of a home that has followed the exact course I'm laying out for the audience to clearly show my premise is spot-on.

joel_19

savings

The savings is not exagerated most houses are energy pigs and our commercial/federal buildings are even worse!!! in allot of them they don't even turn the lights off when they are empty even at 2 AM !! Hello!!

I've seen A/C systems running full tilt in January alongside the boilers doing the same in commercial buildings and management either never knew,or when told is to inept to even care about fixing it.At the same time the CEO's will spend a hundred grand ever couple years redoing their office panneling and drapes.

Like those Detroit guys that flew Gulfstreams to D.C. that made alot of folks angry.I just laughed,I mean are they really that stupid? And if so why are we giving them 50b to go loose?

but i'm not bitter.....

joel_19

Dave

that is wicked pissa!!!! way to go!

Tony_42

Can you spot the 44th President?

Let's hope he can turn things around

Mark Eatherton

Low hanging fruit...

If you need more commercial MFD history, let me know. I'd be GLAD t contribute.

WTG Dave.

ME

nicholas bonham-carter

ending govt. waste?

i foresee the creation of another bureaucracy: the Energy Waste Police will travel around in chevy VOLTS, handing out tickets to building owners whose chimneys show too much white on the IR camera.also on their radar--or are using the "double-hung thermostat".penalties for infraction might include shoveling coal into a huge 1910 boiler whenever the building occupants complain of feeling cold.
as long as it is not a completely unfunded mandate, it might not be that bad.there could be low-interest govt loans for energy-saving improvements to both envelope and mechanical systems.they might focus first on systems whose fuel is mainly imported[ oil?].
foundations will be formed to jump into the action :THE ENERGY CONSERVANCY will sponsor programs to reduce energy waste.
at the country club wealthy members will admire each others diesel-electric SMART cars.
a new reality television show will be born: THE BIGGEST GAINER"[efficiency]. porn channels will show people showering together to show "redeeming social value!--nbc

more

I assume that this will be very very good for the industry... I work near several federal office buildings, and have bid huge jobs in four of them- but those jobs never got done... The federal agencies know that their buildings are crumbling and that their heating systems are antiquated, and they have planned improvements and even solicited bids, but never had the $$$ to proceed... When the cash is made available, I'd bet I'll see big work within a matter of weeks...

Mainemike

Recession

Dan, I love that last sentence: "Just because they're holding a recession doesn't mean you have to participate"... Might just have to use that from time to time. With proper credit of course.

I think the efficiency point is right on the money. We as a nation in government buildings, businesses, as well as our homes could do a lot with very little investment to conserve energy. I teach part time at a State Community College. In just one building I'm familiar with, the heating system is so mis-balanced that one classroom gets into the 90's while the other rooms are a comfortable 70. Repeated repair requests to "Facilities maintenance" have been unsuccessful in past years. In fact, the fix one year was that we were instructed to leave the windows in that room open overnight so it "won't be too hot in the morning". Anyone want to guess the topic studied in this building? You guessed it, HVAC. I will put in a disclaimer that students and/or instructors are prohibited from working on anything within the building. All repairs and adjustments must go through the proper channels through facilities maintenance. I guess this is to avoid the anarchy of the heating building having heat, the electrical having lights and plumbing having water. In the past with so-called "cheap" energy there was very little consequence. Now with increased awareness, the top brass has taken notice and it seems the issue may be solved. I know we all live with a certain amount of bureaucracy, but it seems fuel prices have been more successful at breaking through the red tape than we mortal humans. As the clich

realolman

David Letterman

said, " I think I speak for most people when I say," we don't mind if he wants to start a little early"."

I think there may be a similar picture some day that shows the "best presidents ever." I look for this guy to stick out at least that much in that picture, too.

I think he has that much potential...and we're lucky to get him... it's a shame he's forced to start out in such a hole.

realolman

I like

that too... I hope I don't have to participate.

I guess the point is try to keep your head and thoughts up.

klaus

If there serious about efficiencies

then they will need to educate the mechanical engineers first. How many times do you have to argue your way past the engineer just to do something a little more efficent on a commercial job? Most times its even a savings in instalation costs to do so, but they are stuck on what they learned in their 40 year old books in school.

I'm often wonder if manufactures finance the teachers in these schools, similar to the way drug companies finance the young doctors, where they are taught to push drugs rather than tell someone they need a better diet, and a little physical activity.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

any & all

info would be appreciated. Another joint presentation??? We could be the Green Mech Wrecking Crew - demolishing myths about energy matters while demonstrating what matters with fossil fuel matter and efficiencies(G).

Scot_3

Stop dreaming

Don't forget they are all politicians!!! They lie to their families, why should they tell us the truth. You can't change pollies and you can't change DC they are hand in hand corrupt and wastefull. Irregardless who is in office the waste will continue.... We will continue to pay.

I'm in the mood for a tea party... Been that way for a while.

DanHolohan

Uplifiting!

And yin to my yang. Thanks!

May I call you Lester?

DanHolohan

We started our company in '89,

just in time for the last big one. We didn't participate in that one either. Couldn't afford to.

It gets cold every winter, folks.

realolman

I would say

that things are certainly a mess. I won't argue with your assessment of politicians either.


I think there are some things that maybe no one can do anything about... but, I heard Obama talk about things that many of the other guys don't even seem to know exist.


I think he is a smart, well educated individual who will be better able than most to identify the right things to do, the best way to do them, and have the best chance of getting them done.

If the things talked about in this thread are useful things, I believe our chances of accomplishing them with him as president are better than others who could be and have been president. In the national and global picture, he is one of the few things in a long time about whom I have been optimistic.


... if he turns out to be a crook and a liar, I'll be ready to kick his butt, call him bad names, throw him out, and I will be a little more cynical than I already am. ( which is pretty darn cynical )... but how about we give him a chance to take the test before we flunk him on it.

Leo G_102

egg

xactly!

Leo G

PS - I too refuse to participate in this abonimation!

S Ebels_2

Couldn't agree more

I had a guy ask me early this summer if I would like a set of prints to bid from for a 3,400 sq ft addition on a local town hall. It also included a complete gut and refurb of the existing 2,200 sq ft. I said sure.

Got the prints and gave the mechanical spec's a quick look. Promptly handed them back to him and said thank, but no thanks. The engineer/architect had spec'd rooftop HVAC units to be placed on a pad alongside the building. Supply and return duct was to be insulated to R-6, run up alongside the building and into the attic which was under a 4/12 pitch roof. Virtually no room to work much less do a decent job of insulating. Concrete slab floors, un-insulated in any way shape or form. Supply and return openings both in the ceiling with no provision or possibility of running at least one or the other down to the floor. I told the head honcho that I would give him a bid for split system A/C, radiant floor in the new slab and zoned BB in the existing part. No other option. I simply refused to install it the way it was drawn.

Can there be a more uncomfortable and/or inefficient system contrived by the mind of man? This was designed in the spring/early summer as crude prices were rocketing toward
$140/bbl. C'mon!! does anyone think those prices will not return? I just shake my head sometimes.

nicholas bonham-carter

govt. waste II

there was a time when the government could do things right.
our nebraska capitol bldg.[1920] has such a wonderful heating system [hot water but concealed]. when i took some visitors on a tour, i marveled at how even they had got the heat in the 60 ft tall interior, with balconies- the same temp on all levels.
as you could see from the link, it was finished on time and on budget....and paid for!
if you are driving through, it's a must-see.
i think we all agree that engineers need some more practical learnin'--nbc



http://www.capitol.org/

nicholas bonham-carter

govt. waste II

there was a time when the government could do things right.
our nebraska capitol bldg.[1920] has such a wonderful heating system [hot water but concealed]. when i took some visitors on a tour, i marveled at how even they had got the heat in the 60 ft tall interior, with balconies- the same temp on all levels.
as you could see from the link, it was finished on time and on budget....and paid for!
if you are driving through, it's a must-see.
i think we all agree that engineers need some more practical learnin'--nbc



http://www.capitol.org/

nicholas bonham-carter

govt. waste II

there was a time when the government could do things right.
our nebraska capitol bldg.[1920] has such a wonderful heating system [hot water but concealed]. when i took some visitors on a tour, i marveled at how even they had got the heat in the 60 ft tall interior, with balconies- the same temp on all levels.
as you could see from the link, it was finished on time and on budget....and paid for!
if you are driving through, it's a must-see.
i think we all agree that engineers need some more practical learnin'--nbc



http://www.capitol.org/

Steamhead (in transit)

Dave, the other side of this

is the savings possible from fixing- or should I say, de-knuckleheading- existing systems.

So far, All Steamed Up Inc. has some case histories- the one in our FAP ad saved 36% on their gas consumption. The Bromo-Seltzer Tower was about the same. Early numbers on one of this year's projects (a bar) show roughly 20% savings, and we're still waiting on another (the 120-unit Ambassador Apartments) that we expect considerable savings on too. We're starting another one (apartment building) next week, and another (a historic Baltimore church) after that. All of these are steam or Vapor.

"Green Mech Wrecking Crew"... I like it! Hal Blaine would likely approve....

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I'm with Steamhead on this......

There is a time a place for application of new high tech condensors, however, I too have multiple projects in which relatively minor upgrades were made to the system leaving the existing equipment in place and properly tuning it with savings of 20 to 40%. Payback on the investment was in less than 2 months for one of these, with almost completely eliminating issues of unbalanced heating. I am amidst two other projects that are very likely to also demonstrate this same pattern....Getting our old systems working properly can result in enormous energy savings with a small investment.

I am also looking into taking full advantage of this low hainging fruit in the near future.

Boilerpro

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

mikea23

lets c company jet 20K per hour 3 hour use thats 60K. GM senior staff and layyers in a car whats that 9K per hr they should have taken the jet the second time also.

ttekushan_3

hear, hear.

I should be getting some feedback in the next few months on yet another steam job at a church, where the old equipment was supremely bungled into terribly inefficient operation. But here's a lesson: though the system was noisy and expensive to operate, it has been running reliably and effectively. Herein lies a great "fault" with these systems. They usually work while neglected and actively bungled. *

See, this won't be a problem with government spec'd ultra sophisticated high efficiency HVAC systems. I'm sure they'll get expert care and preventative maintenance at a fair price right from the get-go. You know, just like their current systems. There's also an excellent chance that if absolutely anything goes wrong with one of these systems, they will save an INFINITE amount of energy! It'll simply stop working.

Seriously, as a person who takes advantage of modern technology (though not gadget prone), my real interests and means of income are all related to teaching old dogs new tricks, even though the tricks are rarely new. Merely tricks never accepted by convention. Some of the older technologies have great merit but are not only kept in a temporal box with tradition discouraging natural progress, but also suffering from the burden of its poorer examples in the past. How wonderful that wholesale "out with the bath water" adoption of almost anything new and [fill in buzzword here] can be done while gleefully and intentionally confusing "having a flawless history of performance" with "no long term history at all."

If I dare question the assumptions of the Very Smart People Who Know More Than You Do, I'm dismissed as being an obstructionist. And here I thought I was a little more insightful than average in trying to analyze and predict the "future history" of new applications of technology. I guess I will be proven wrong by virtue of the eventual obliteration of older yet very effective technologies by decree, rendering the argument moot.

Examples of being called an obstructionist are:

• pointing out that a thorough servicing of a fundamentally well designed steam heating system somehow or another is able to garner similar fuel savings to those predicted only by tearing the whole thing out and starting over; **

• pointing out that destroying a functioning and reasonably efficient or upgradeable steam heating system is the perfect definition of waste;

• pointing out that a proposed new array of rooftop heating units with the crappy insulation have a lower efficiency than the steam boiler currently in use and that comfort levels will drop and fuel consumption will likely rise. BTW I've witnessed this twice in the last two years. The old timers who fought the changes were disregarded, but proven right--No. Wrong! The evidence is gone!

• Pointing out the potential pitfalls of mechanical systems heavily laden with proprietary electronics is a good way to get yourself labeled in an uncomplimentary manner. I find it ironic that efficiency is being sold as a means of independence and security, yet the products themselves are often more likely to keep you personally beholden to a single manufacturer of a critical part. A heating failure with no work-around during a blizzard at 3 degrees outside is more critical to me than a Blackberry with a glitch until such time that using a Blackberry becomes a critical part of getting the heat back on line!

I've discussed with Gerry Gill and SteamHead via email some new ideas and revised "old new" ideas in steam heating based on the essential characteristics of surprisingly efficient steam heating systems in contrast to those which are surprisingly inefficient. However, I fear we may have come along too late for steam heating. Conventional wisdom is tough to fight, even though one would think that the history of conventional wisdom's accuracy would give one pause. Then throw a bunch of MBA's into the mix.....

T

*Its very difficult to describe what I encountered on this one and how dangerously screwed up the boiler was. Suffice it to say that it was operating flooded, 50 gallons of make up water a day were being added, soot (gas boiler!!) partially clogging the sections and all the way to the top of the chimney, extreme boiler scale! But it heated the place.

**on the church job above, by clocking the gas meter, gas flow rate calculations, steaming time, terminal pressure, hi lo firing rate proportions and average recovery time before and after, fuel consumption is projected to drop a minimum of 50%. The last church job of comparable conditions saw fuel usage down around 55% along with steam heating being restored to the 15% of the building that had been disabled due to poor steam circulation.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

well

that's a deep subject!

I'm with you on many of the issues you've raised. And we too have rescued hundreds of old steam systems from rez to old auto factories. In fact, we are wrapping up a 3.5-mill BTU steam job this coming week. Old auto factory, 4 story - covers an entire city block, antique coal-to-oil 29-GPH boilers that once provided steam power to machinery on all four floors via belt & pulley system, boilers large enough to walk through, underground so the RR tracks could be run overhead to dump a car-load of coal at a time to be hand-shoveled into the breach - in my mind's eye I see blackened sweaty firemen shoveling 24/7/365, missing (dang it) is the steam powered emergency fire-pump that was at the ready to charge the four floors of sprinkler heads - an almost unheard of thing back in the late 1800's. Twin towers in a neighboring building, that once was a part of this old auto factory, held water in tanks on the top floor to be gravity-fed to that old steam-driven fire pump, so there had to be fire in the belly of the beasts 24/7/365 to maintain pressure - just in case.

We've relocated to the basement in the plant (up one level and over - new floor poured over the old stairway to the pulley & belt tunnel), constructed a new fire-rated mechanical room - installed twinned steam boilers (under 2-mill each), added feed-water tank with dual pumps so we can target just the boiler that's in need - or running because we will seldom need both at the same time, 400' of 4" welded gas line, & I fully expect to see a 70% reduction in fuel consumption (BTU to BTU).

So gents. I am not against using or upgrading steam. For everything there is a time and place. However, you cannot convince me that an old residential steam boiler can operate as efficiently as a modcon installed in an exactly identical home. Skipping the efficiency ratings, modulation alone will win that battle. Follow up by improving the homes envelope with insulation, windows & doors & the steamer will lag even further behind due to being grossly oversized, which it likely was before being touched by any of us in this century.

Now, swap out the oversized chunk of CI & install a new low-water-content steamer and you've at least got better odds at showing dramatic savings. Toss in some tweaking of vents & traps & that too will reduce fuel consumption.

There's plenty of steam and hot water to go around as we upgrade to conserve. No need to eat our young along the way.

Here's something even more frightening. Take a 98% eff modcon furnace (we recently installed a York Affinity 33)with an ECM variable-speed blower at 270-watts of run-power consumption. Then take my boiler (modcon that can hit 99% eff & does so occasionally) that eats watts at various rates 40- to 220-watts (5-watts when idle). However, I need an 87-watt circ to move water through the boiler and I've got another 11 circs - because at the time I thought that was too cool for words. Wanna guess what my power consumption is when 12 circs are pumping away?

So....... Now comes a low-watt VS circ that can purr along using just 5-watts (more as needed) and a baker's dozen of 3-watt zone valves. No by-pass relief needed because the circ 'sees' the change and self-adjusts.

Power = $$$. In ten years time, with just a 5% annual increase in electricity, I will have saved almost $10-grand! Push that out to 20-years & it's past the $24G's mark. Color me enlightened. Spent most of the past 37-years tearing out zone valves so I could install circs. But, in my own defense, ZV's were not exactly reliable in those dark ages while circs were like timex watches - takes a licking & keeps on ticking.

That's what energizes me every day & makes me love Mondays - there's something new to learn around every corner & the more I've learned, the less I know.

As Red Green would say when signing off: "Remember, we're all in this together."

michael_34

well

I been saying this for a long time. We (The People) can not put our faith in any politicians, because when you do we (The People) lose our strength. These guys (and gals) our not our saviors we have to be our own saviors. Like Gandhi said " be the change you want to see!" A tea party does not have to be violent it has to be effective. Like Dan said "we don't have to participate!"

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

Absolutely

correct. No one group will succeed if they attempt to do this on their own. The elitist green movement must broaden its base to include everyone and include government as a partner.

The people in this country who need 'green' the most are also the folks who can afford it the least. We will need the government to get involved if we're going to raise everyone up that's in the boat. If we don't do that, the whole thing will just be another passing fancy that helps the rich get richer and divides the citizens even further. Those who pollute the most will once again win & don't think for one second they're not thinking of ways to scuttle the movement while driving wedges between the various classes, races and economic divides that already exist.

Looking back at the 70's gas & oil shortages and what's now happening to our current oil & gas prices - how long until most folks are contentedly purchasing gas-guzzlers and forgetting about investing in their home's energy efficiency. It's like the entire (well, almost the entire) population has altzheimers when it comes to these issues. Soon to be not even a distant memory!

Write to Pres. elect Obama. Near as I can tell, he's about the only insider (beltway) who doesn't owe those largest polluters anything.

There's more than 170,000,000 boilers, furnaces, heat pumps & A/C units to be replaced or upgraded to stretch fossil fuels usage-life - enough work for everyone while we make what's going to be a decades-long transition to renewable energy for all.

Contact info for Barack Obama:

Washington D.C. Office
713 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510
(202) 224-2854
(202) 228-4260 fax
(202 228-1404 TDD


Chicago Office
John C. Kluczynski Federal Office Building
230 South Dearborn St.
Suite 3900 (39th floor)
Chicago, Illinois 60604
(312) 886-3506
(312) 886-3514 fax
Toll free: (866) 445-2520
(for IL residents only)

Springfield Office
607 East Adams Street
Springfield, Illinois 62701
(217) 492-5089
(217) 492-5099 fax

Marion Office
701 North Court Street
Marion, Illinois 62959
(618) 997-2402
(618) 997-2850 fax

Moline Office
1911 52nd Avenue
Moline, Illinois 61265
(309)736-1217
(309)736-1233 fax

RonWHC

It's deja vu all

over again. Like a re-read of 1933. Massive public works programs, with massive numbers of new folks on the public (& taxpayer financed private) payroll, a huge increase in bureaucrats, & more regulations to screw up, even more, that which was already screwed up. The economy, & the country, were worse off in 1937 than 1933. Took a ball buster of a war to "turn things around."

Proposals to upgrade government buildings must be taken w/ a 5 pound bag of course salt. Gold plated specs will be passed out to lots of contractors. The contractor accepted (at least here in the epicenter of Federal Government) will be the one w/ the best connections (read $$$ contributed) or qualified minority. He, or she, like many of the others, will low ball the price (still 3 times what it's worth) & make a killing off the change orders that provide the entree, dessert, & after dinner drink, for those who do government.

When it is done & the first year is gone, government clones take over. Their idea of preventive maintenance is to wait for the last back-up to fail. Then let their fingers do the work. Call a contractor - who will charge top dollar for the special part(s) (government hates off-the-shelf stuff), air freight, & massive amounts of overtime, to effect the repair. All on yours, & my dime, X millions.

I too refuse to be a part of the economic downturn. And. I refuse to be an active party to the conspiracy about to be perpetuated on each, and every, taxpaying citizen in the name of "infrastructure investment."

Yes Dan. You can call me Lester.

tim smith

The killer is in this put people back to work idea and to save

energy by updating equipment or envelope is that it is federally funded...... Low bid, prevailing wage, fat fat fat fat fat.... There will be at least 30 to 40% more $$$ spent on this fiasco than needed. Maybe if they get the govt revising their bidding policy out of the dark ages and to today's healthy non public monies bidding practice, we could save 30 or 40% on the planned work and spend that on other programs that are needed or at least do it that much cheaper. Maybe during these harder times at least suspend the prevailing wage requirement to allow the quality and price conscious private work companies to get involved and save our country money up front and in the long run.. Ps, a relative was involved in the govt bid procurement side at times and they were alway's trying to figure a way around it legally so as to get who they wanted at a cheaper price. That's my rant for now. Tim
Ps, I don't do public work because of above and for the ridiculous amount of paperwork required.

ttekushan_3

Modulation

Excellent point about the effects of modulation. Lack of Modulation for steam boilers is an issue that has had me banging my head against the wall (not " The Wall") for years. This on/off business makes it difficult to really respond to the dynamics of heat demanded and input supplied. When I came across a residential B-Line boiler (1929!) with that steam pressure modulating gas valve and gas pressure operated secondary air dampers, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was an atmospheric CI with sections of very unusual design with even more unusual controls maintaining a constant steam pressure of a few ounces. I rebuilt the draft regulator with a new diaphragm. After adjustments, my eyes popped out of my head (ow. ow.) looking at the combustions numbers. This was the highest efficiency steamer I ever tested by far. This darn thing's running clean at just above 84% and has been doing so for 80 years. What a revelation.

Frankly, after my glee and excitement settled, I became extraordinarily angry at the fact that this is deemed by the conventional wisdom of engineers, manufacturers, installers and technicians as pointless and on/off firing is "fine." I was told with great authority over the years that that junk on a boiler wouldn't make any difference and just causes trouble.

I'll come right out and say it. They were and are wrong. WHAT trouble? No difference?!? Here was my proof that good design can be elegantly simple and efficient. Modulation and steam just go together. I think that for years we've been getting a product and attitude from a significant part of the industry that says "Its good enough for who its for." It really frosts my shorts.

I know how effectively and efficiently steam can operate. The boiler's ratings numbers are only one element of an entire system of pipes, radiation, rooms, their uses and the building design itself. Steam's high energy latent heat circulates incredibly well and is prone to finding its own path to the coolest portions of the system, if you manage steam pressure from the boiler properly. Every efficient steam heating system I've seen takes full advantage of these interesting characteristics of latent heat distribution. These designers understood steam from the perspective of dynamic phase change functions. I'm not sure that looking at steam from the perspective of a transfer medium (be it water or air) thats heated and moved in its warm state from one place to somewhere else will get you good steam design or good steam troubleshooting.

As I final thought, I sometimes wonder if the people in the best position to be educated and trained in steam heating would be really good refrigeration people. They understand dynamic interactions of phase change, pressures and temperature. The only trick is to get them to see how it works without a high pressure mechanical pump!

scott markle_2

Excellent post Dave.

Have you actually ripped out those circs. yet?

It's a unique quality to look at something without preconceptions. All to often our views are held hostage by what we have done in the past. Will you be sending notices to past clients informing them of your reformed Circoholic status?

This is no time to let ideology trump common sense. Learn from the past and move forward, In a world where many things are in decline, knowledge continues to grow. Knowledge is a powerful anti-entropic tool, Unfortunately how we ultimately apply it is far from certain.

Thanks for the sensible consideration of this "deep subject"

singh

Paradigm shift

and a Revolutionary attitude is what is really needed.

Government, can not allow this, for fear of instability and loss of control.

Ponder this : Congress , opposite progress. Congress will always want status quo.

Oil is everything, oil touches everything, plastics, textiles, etc...without it millions maybe billions of people will loose jobs, way of living, that equals unhappy masses, which means a change in our governmental process.

We need to rid ourselves of fossil fuels period. In order for this to happen a revolutionary paradigm in thought and process is needed, not change.

But we are creatures of habit, it's hard to make that leap. So we must do the bare minumum to survive, but still appeal to the masses. And if that means turning off the lights at night at the white house, so be it.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

partially

it's a work in progress awaiting several other new-fangled gadgets for beta-testing.

Yes, we are explaining these issues to past and future (we hope) customers. Also heading off those who have asked for large banks of circs when designing retro-fits and new installs. That includes the engineers who do the plans we're bidding. Some get it, some don't, some won't because they don't want to.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

no prevailing wage

If that is in the mix, it'll kill the deal and it's not currently in the mix for projects we bid where gov't money is funding the desperately needed work when heating plants, water heaters and plumbing is busted. The owners sign over a lien on the property to the feds.

Unfortunately, the program is not run wisely and they need direction for better standards regarding what gets installed. Performance standards need to be tied to the installs too to ensure the occupants are getting an improved system. Details that can all be worked out if the govt is willing to improve the system efficiencies required and the way the program is implemented.

Steamhead (in transit)

But a gravity-return steam system

has no parasitic pump or blower load.

If boiler-feed pumps are used, they only come on briefly when the boiler needs water. Power-saving advantage: Steam!

90%+ boilers ARE possible on steam. Lo-hi-lo or full-mod (3:1 or so) firing is a no-brainer retrofit to existing steam boiler designs, but it has to be done right to avoid flue gas condensation. Larger commercial boilers have had these capabilities for years- there's no reason smaller ones shouldn't also.

When American boiler makers stop dragging their feet and get this stuff on the market, we'll be able to sell it right off our trucks.

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michael_34

amen to all

So What DO WE DO! Tea party! community efforts with own local monies. Barter!
This scenario has been painted well in many fictional stories and reality. We already have the knowledge (with history), we just have to act and act with integrity! If you talking of subverting the dominate paradigm, then ....
Love your family your good friends and ofcourse hug your kids.