A Steamy Mess

Mad Dog_2

MadDog

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Stephen Aghaulor

Steam issues out the Yin Yang

I've finished reading "We got Steam Heat. . ", I've learned a lot to say the least.

I don't even know where to begin, so I'll just ramble and hope someone can help.

First, my system doesn't sound like the ideal systems that Mr. Holohan describes. Namely, I do not believe that I have anything remotely close to a Hartford loop, or an Equalizer. I should mention, it's a two pipe system.

I know my problem starts with a few things. This is a steam system that hasn't seen TLC in a long time.

I believe I have a few problems to start small. My steam traps are most likely garbage. I'll probably have to replace or rebuild all of them.

I have several working main vents, however some spit. All of these vents however, are not directly off the mains. I am not sure if that is normal or not.

There seems to be a rotting return pipe. I know that spells problems.

Also, I do not know if mains are supposed to circle the house uninterrupted, but my do not. There is a portion that juts down to a t, meeting with the return line, and feeding back into what turns into the rest of the main line. I think that this is probably wrong.

Anyways, form my novice observations, these are the things that I have noticed.

Here are some of the observed phenomena. Knocking, wave sounds in pipes, steam leaks from valve, tapping in wall.

Also, the sight glass is completely filled, and to lower the level requires draining significant amounts of water from the boiler. The feeder pump is not running, so I can only assume the water is coming from a delayed return of condensate.

What worries me most however, is that there is a meter on the boiler, which I can only assume reads the pressure inside the boiler, it rises to well above 5 while the boiler is firing. I've read from "We got Steam Heat. . " that the pressure shouldn't be above 2psi. I'm worried that something might be wrong and that something terrible might happen.

Please help. I've already found a few knuckleheads. With winter upon us, I'd like to be sure things are going to be safe, and continue to work, even if it's noisy. Your help will be deeply appreciated.

ps. I can take pictures and post them if need be.

Steamhead (in transit)

Well, one thing that sounds like it might be OK

is this:

"I do not know if mains are supposed to circle the house uninterrupted, but my do not. There is a portion that juts down to a t, meeting with the return line, and feeding back into what turns into the rest of the main line."

This is how you drain condensate out of a steam main when you have to raise or lower it. I've attached a pic of one we did recently. The drip pipe is toward the left, running down the stone wall. You can see the steam pipe- it's a branch line in this case, that we rerouted- coming down to the drip, then running thru the panel above the doorway. It pitches up from that point.

I think you have a Vapor system. This was the Cadillac of heating back in the day, and is still one of the best out there. Forget 2 PSI, you probably shouldn't run this system any higher than 8 ounces. This requires a Vaporstat instead of a Pressuretrol.

Are there any odd-looking devices in the piping around the boiler? If so, are there any names on them, or on the radiator shutoffs and traps? This will help us ID your system.

The overfilling boiler is likely due to a bad feed valve.

Please take some pics and post them. Also let us know where you're located- there's a good chance we know someone in your area who can help you de-knucklehead this grand old system. If you're in Baltimore, contact me.

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Ted Robinson

That is an old house!

You photo shows working knob-and-tube electric wiring. Now there is an old timer!

Steamhead (in transit)

That's the next thing

they're going to upgrade. They just might be able to pay for that job with their fuel savings ;-) This is also a Vapor system- an Orifice type. The house was built in 1924.

Go here to see the rest of those job pics:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=59450&mc=27

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Mad Dog_2

Well............................

I'll tell you this, my friend, you have fallen upon a safety net here...we''ll get you through this. Mad Dog

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Stephen Aghaulor

Pressuretrol & Vaporstat

Per Mr. Holohan's suggestion in "We Got Steam Heat. . " I lowered the Cut in and the Differential dial to the lowest setting. What that did was effectively stop heating my 2nd floor and presumabley, my third floor. I don't really care so much about the third floor, as no one goes up there, but I would not like my plumbing to burst from freezing either.

It seems that the heat only works on the second floor if I turn the differential dial up to 2 or 3.

Now, my learning tells me that this might mean that the valves are bad, which means that air is blocking the steam, but the valves work fine from what I can tell. I can hear them breathing sometimes. That's why I'm so confused. If the system is breathing, than the less pressure the better because the steam moves faster, but it ain't making it to the whole house with such low pressure.

Also, since messing with the Pressuretrol, I have effectively lost heat in a few rooms, where others are heating just gingerly.

Regarding my specific info.
I live in the Boston Edison Historic District of Detroit.
I believe that the house was built somewhere around 1921.
It's a three story house, with full sized basement.
The boiler has a plate on it, Crane 7-300 series. It's a natural gas firing boiler.
I've got a McDonnell & Miller Feeder/Cutoff. Its the same one as pictured in "We Got Steam Heat. . ."

I'm still trying to figure out the brand of the steam traps, because I'm aware that one can purchase rebuild kits if one can pinpoint the make and model.

I've been replacing input valves as some of them didn't turn well, or worse, leaked terribly.

I'll try to get some pictures soon.

Jamie Hall

It seems a bit odd

that lowering the pressure setting would stop steam from rising to the second or third floors -- lowering the pressure in an hydronic system might, but not steam. However, steam can only go into places which air can get out of. Are there vents on the individual radiators? If not, the way air gets out is through the traps and into the dry return(s). From there it should be able to get to a main vent somewhere. However, if some piping got changed at some point, it is possible that there is a low point in the dry return which doesn't have a drip. Water could get trapped in there. Now depending on how low the low point is, at low pressure the system might not be able to force air around that water, whereas it might be able to at a higher pressure. Although with some banging... !

I would be inclined to trace the piping very very carefully, starting at the boiler, thinking like steam, air, and water. For instance: Air and water can go through a trap (that's working right), but not steam. Air can go through a vent, but neither steam nor water. Water cannot go uphill! Neither air nor steam can get through a water pocket.

And post some pictures!

Phil_17

If you want to see know and tube...

I've got a lot of it ;-)

Much of the house has been updated, and anything that is new/renovated has been done to "modern" standards, but there is still plenty of perfectly good working K&T. Ultimately it will all be replaced, but time and money must go to higher priorities first.

-Phil

tim smith

I am wondering if he might have some clogged condensate lines

and the only way he can get some steam through them and get heat out of respective radiators is by bumping up pressure. Just a thought. Or bad traps?? Tim

Steamhead (in transit)

There are PLENTY of good Vapor men in Boston

click on Resources above, then Find a Professional and follow the directions.

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