CSST Banned in MA !!!

[Deleted User]

I'm not a fan of CSST, but have used it. If you're bidding black pipe versus someone else using CSST, you won't be able to compete. I will say that in existing construction you don't have that high of a probability of nails and staples through it if it's exposed.

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Charlie from wmass

Bob I am sad to say I have used it but soon as the shUt came alog with licenses from manfactures and such I said I will stick with the black Iron. Anyone want a deal on my left over CSST parts?

Charlie from wmass

John CSST is not allowed there the supplies must be factory made. This is jacketed stuff for in the walls and other supply lines. Good for wholesalers not for small installers as it shifts cost from labor to material quite well.

ScottMP

Let me play devils advocate here

If this stuff is so dangerous .. where are the over whelming number of failures ?? I mean CSST has been around now for what 7/8 years ???

There has to be millions of miles of the stuff out there.

Scott

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Bob Bona_4

sounds

like what the old time electricians said about Romex when it came out.

Or, what plumbers said when PVC came out.

Or, what hydronicians said when PEX....

singh

devils advocate

If nails can puncture it, then strike plates were not used.

Why do incoming gas utilities use poly under ground? In many cases only 18" below grade, it only takes a few digs with a shovel and then you hit it.

Why do electricians bond to water mains, again nowadays poly pipe coming in, how is that grounded?

If black pipe is used, but allowable gas flex connections are used at appliances, and lightning strikes, what happens to the flex connector?

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Bob Bona_4

I use

it too (certified for Wardflex, Tracpipe and Gastite), trust me, it gives me anxiety when I see it run on jobs not to mfr. spec.

The bonding issue is valid, and the ammonia pinhole issue is disturbing.

For now, in CT, I'm ok with it if it's run w/ protection, bonded, and nobody uses Windex to check for leaks

Bob Bona_4

good points

only exception is outside punctured buried poly is not theoretically in a "contained" space, so the hazard is reduced..relatively speaking..

Bob Harper

buried poly gas tubing

must be surrounded by crushed stone, which signals something is down there. You also should have warning tape a few inches above the tubing so you know somethings coming when your shovel/ PHD hits it.

Flexible appliance connectors are listed to ANSI Z21.24 and not the same thing as CSST. They cannot penetrate walls or floors and are limited in length to 3ft for all appliances except dryers and ranges, which can have 6'.

So, all you guys with the nail penetrations in CSST. How many of these installations were properly installed and inspected? Properly installed, you should be able to drive 16d nails through the wall and it pushes the tubing aside.

singh

understood

but what I meant if lightning strikes, what happens to underground poly pipe? I think I remember an underground gas explosion that occured a couple of years ago, after investigation, it was determined that nearby lightning strike had caused it.

I'm not sure what ANSI Z21.24 is , but if lightning strikes a house , what happens to gas flex, whether 3' long or 6'? (A chain is only as strong as it's weakess link.)

electricans bond to water mains, and nowadays mains are poly, so if you bond CSST to panel which is bonded to poly, what is really being bonded?

Should not rods be placed at roof peaks, which are driven into the ground.

And seperate but related topic, solar roof installations require ground wire also. I hope you guys who are doing them are grounding them. I think a new lineset material is exactly the same as CSST. No biggy, nothing will explode, but sure would not be pretty.




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Rich_47

C.S.S.T

Retarded greedy plumbers cause these problems. No respect for their job,On a positive note it takes Ma plumbers 5 years to be time served and maybe the teachers might have a clue on how to teach basic common sense within 5 years.I have a great idea, the faster we do this job we get paid, get drunk, grease the local plumbing inspectors and who gives a *****...

S Ebels_2

What pray tell.........

Do the rule making bodies have to say about ProPress gas fittings and type L copper tube.

You know anything can be screwed up, destroyed, perforated or otherwise compromised. I was called once for a gas leak in a rental apartment. The tenant had used the 1/2" black running across the basement to hang all manner of clothing on. The steel hangers had pulled out of the floor joists and allowed........I'd guess 800-1,000 lbs of weight......to rest on the now unsupported pipe. Suprise!! The pipe failed at a coupling and spewed Nat gas all over the place. Thank the Lord someone had the presence of mind to crank the meter off on the house before it blew.

The point is .....NOTHING is fool proof. They make better fools every day.

mikea23

BAN GAS

mikea23

ban gas

All of the issues here are install related all gas pipe should be gounded if you look at the IFGC 2003 309.1 But people do crazy things and systems fail and people die or get hurt. That stinks but if it was a perfect world we would have no lawyers and my insurance would be nothing.

Looking at our industry we hated alot of things pex,pvc,hotwater, MODCONS, copper pipe, gal pipe, cpvc, i could fill the page.

The only thing we can do is have pride and install thing properly. The product has been tested more then anyone of us will ever test it.

The MA plumbing bourd should just follow the code and stop trying to justify there job. The plumbng inspectors should all do the same. This is all BS, maybe next week they will ban gas all together and let us explain it to the people as they hide behind there desk

babigurl4u4194+realcasinoguide4636299

Official Notice Regarding Previous Approval of CSST Gas Piping S

Effective as of December 1, 2008
The Board of State Examiner of Plumbers and Gas Fitters at its regularly scheduled meeting held on November 26, 2008, voted to temporarily rescind the approval of all Corrugated Stainless Steel Gas Piping Systems (CSST) in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts until such time as the Manufactures' recently amended bonding requirements are resolved by the appropriate Authorities Having Jurisdiction.

Gas permits issued prior to the above effective date for the installation of CSST Gas Piping Systems are NOT affected by this decision.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Nails through CSST

Hand nailing might push CSST aside as it penetrates the wall, but not staples shot out of a staple gun. Everyone uses staple guns around here, and the staples simply hit the pipe above the nailing plates. My customers deserve heavy duty black iron pipe. It's all I would use in my own house, and it's all I will install in my customers houses. You can take my threader, when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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Bob Harper

while we're at it

Let's outlaw soft copper for gas, hard copper for water, PEX, and any new systems that are not armor plated.

I'm sorry but if you have proper installation techniques with proper pressure testing and inspection, these piping systems do not have problems with leaks. This is more old school fear mongering BS.

BTW, when is the last time you have seen black iron in a basement properly supported that was not being used to hang clothes and anything else? I've found plenty of leaks in black iron from this. I've also found more total leaks from pros using pipe dope on ground unions than all other sources put together. I've investigated several incidents including delayed ignitions where there were injuries caused by pipe dope on flares and ground unions. Now, how are you going to regulate that? Gee, I thought we were supposed to be pressure testing and inspecting these installations.

Dave Larsen_11

?????

Hydronicians? I like it! Good word!

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Fear Mongering

I don't think 14 staples through CSST from staples in one house is fear mongering BS, I won't use it, if you want to, go ahead. Most inspectors around here won't let you use soft copper for gas either. The difference with pex and hard copper is that if you get a leak, it leaks water,
NOT GAS!

Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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Bob Harper

copper with gas

Bob G., my point is, ALL gas lines must be pressured tested. If some nut improperly installed lines where staple guns blasted it, it will fail the pressure test. There also should be inspection of the installation.

Now, this may come as a shock but soft copper is the gas piping of choice in many areas. Most LP gas lines in the home are copper and Canada loves copper tubing for NG or LPG.

You are punishing one material for the negligence of others. Why would you want ANY gas lines in the line of fire from staple guns? Maybe those lines should have been routed through interior partitions instead of exterior walls, where they also reduce the R value.

[Deleted User]

My brother's friend was helping him remodel his bathroom and put a finishing nail through the 1/2 copper. I was surprised to say the least.

Brian_19

Staples

If gas line was hit by 14 staples it was in no way installed properly. Remember you must use tempered striker plates that extend 5" above plate. I see many installs not done correctly with the biggest problem is not using the correct nail plates.
I too must admit I like iron pipe over csst, but it does work great for running a gas line to a fireplace,second floor laundry, or attic furnace.

george_42

csst

a few years ago a plumber friend of mine was doing some charity work and reported that the residential gas lines were tygon tubing and hose clamps. try that in Ma.

george_42

tygon was in MEXICO

scrook_2

Tygon

Have seen thread reinforced high pressure Tygon (or other plasicized PVC tubing), like the stuff used for carbon dioxide tubing on commercial soda dispensing systems, used as whips from portable 20lb (about) propane cylinders/regulators to gas cooking ranges in Brazil (presumabily at 11" pressure or there abouts) -- a similar application to the black opaque hoses used on gas grills, but indoors (relatively -- the houses are much more open due to tropical climate of Belo Horizonte (a bit N of Sao Paulo). This was not *fixed* structure plumbing however.

Alan R. Mercurio_3

I’m just curious how are you folks making out with this situation in Mass? Thanks.

Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

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Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

CSST in Ma

Has been reinstated, provided there is an electrical permit, I hear some electrical inspectors won't sign off on it.

Bob Gagnon

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Alan R. Mercurio_3

Thanks for the prompt response, Bob. I appreciate it.

Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

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