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CSST Banned in MA !!!

jim s_2
jim s_2 Member Posts: 113
Where did you get this e-mail from?
«1

Comments

  • Eric_32
    Eric_32 Member Posts: 267
    CSST Banned in MA !!!

    I Received this e-mail over the weekend. Not sure what the reason is or how true it is. Anyone know of it??

    Public Notice

    The Massachusetts Board of State Examiners of Plumbers and Gas Fitters have Temporary banned the use of All Types of CSST Gas Piping Material including the new Counter Strike CSST effective Friday November 28, 2008. All installers should contact their local inspector regarding any existing permits that were taken prior to Friday November 28, 2008.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    interesting

    I want to know what is behind that.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    I suspect.....

    it is lightning. Turns it into swiss cheese.

    As soon as someone gets a lightning detector that that senses lightning and shUts off the gas, they'll allow it back on the market. Like an E.F.E. (Excess Flow Eliminator) but better.

    Pure speculation on my part.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • kpc_44
    kpc_44 Member Posts: 29
    probabaly

    a manufacuter of steel pipe...
  • Mitch_6
    Mitch_6 Member Posts: 549
    Lightning has been an issue for a while

    Bonding and grounding were introduce into the code in a lame Massachusetts kind of way. Totally fall between the cracks. Plumber was suppose to install an approved clamp on the tube and a licensed electrician was suppose to properly ground.

    I have asked electricians, electrical inspectors and plumbing inspectors no one enforced it or did it.

    The critical use for grounding was an appliance like a grill on a deck or decorative appliance attached to a metallic liner that could be easily struck.

    As usual MA goes into over kill. If lightning strikes your house you got more problems than just a gas line.

    They want to save lives why don't they make chimney inspections mandatory. Only two houses burned with csst from a strike. Know how many blocked flues I find with appliances that have no spill switches.

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  • Brad White_204
    Brad White_204 Member Posts: 20
    Did you mean

    "shUts" off the gas?

    Either way, the meaning works.... :)
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    I just went on

    the Mass State Plumbers web site and there is nothing about this. Nothing about any current action.

    ????

    Scott

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  • Joe Blanks
    Joe Blanks Member Posts: 10
    CSST ban?

    Eric-
    There is nothing on the state Board website- that is usually the first place they post anything like that. I am also an assistant inspector and haven't heard anything like that in our continuing ed stuff...I doubt this is legit.
  • Brad White_204
    Brad White_204 Member Posts: 20
    Maybe

    the Plumbing Site Webmasters are still unconscious in a turkey tryptophan-induced coma and will get to it tomorrow.
  • Mitch_6
    Mitch_6 Member Posts: 549
    One of the inside sales reps at Portland group told my employee



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  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    I shut you not....

    Who put the i next to the u ?

    me
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • saussyHen
    saussyHen Member Posts: 19
    CSST banned Mass?

    A quick Google search came up empty. There may be some local jurisdictions doing this instead of at the State level.

    Ever wondered why copper tubing was not part of the lightning litigation? Because of the tubing markings, you cannot readily identify who made it. Even when the plastic coating is burned off CSST, you can easily identify it by the mechanical couplings. Newer copper is being engraved but there are tons of unmarked copper tubing out there and yes, it can blow from lightning hits.

    Lightning protection is an inexact science at best. For instance, a NASA scientist who studied lightning effects on space craft noted the better grounded and bonded, the higher the propensity to take a strike.
  • Rich Kontny_3
    Rich Kontny_3 Member Posts: 562
    CSST

    I believe the major manufacturers all had to settle a class action lawsuit about 18 months ago. I can dig up the info once I get my laptop back. It is all related to lightning and the fact it powdered some of the enclosed stainless with a direct hit.

    The remedial action was to go back and install parallel grounding or bonding. When you factor in this new cost and the exposure factor you find out that black piping once again makes the most sense.

    I have heard rumors about interior plastic gas piping but have not seen anything here in Wisconsin yet. Looks like the tri=stands and threaders will make a comeback. It takes better tradesmen to use threaded systems anyway, so why not?
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,312


    I did my Ma. Gasfitters up date class the 2d week in November and that was all he talked about. Apparently they have a bunch of sample pieces of CCST in Boston with screw and nail holes in it. I t seems they are not happy with the CCST manufacturers and have given them the opportunity to step up on some problems and they are not taking action.

    At code class it seemed like the board was going to take action on this and they have apparently done so.

    Ed
  • Rich Kontny_3
    Rich Kontny_3 Member Posts: 562
    I have

    Hooked into gas systems that are very sound and are over 100 years old. I always check with the authorities who recommend a thorough blowing out of scale if they find the piping in good shape. Years ago we had city gas in our hometown (Ashland,WI) that was very high in moisture content. This became a corrosion problem and it shortened the life of black pipe systems with malleable fittings. The current natural gas is supposively higher in moisture content also. How many times have you taken off a dirt leg and found it full? This is a sign of corrosion. The CSST should be more resilient to rust, even though poor workmanship, bad installs and the lightning thing have taken their toll on its usage!

    Rich
  • saussyHen
    saussyHen Member Posts: 19
    demonizing?

    If you have CSST with nails and screws in it, you have installation and inspection issues. BTW, I've found plenty of similar problems with soft copper tubing and more. You cannot use flared copper tubing buried in walls and floors the way you can CSST. If you install it properly, pressure test it and inspect it, you should have no problems.

    Rich, where is this huge cost increase? Two bonding clamps and a short piece of 6 ga. solid copper, which you bake into the cost of the job?

    Properly installed, nails and screws push the tubing aside instead of penetrating it. That's why they require it to flop around loose in stud cavities or else have strike protection where it must be held rigid.

    How many problems have there been over the years from improperly sized and installed black iron? Lots. How often has black iron been installed with a lot of ells, which add so much flow resistance you get operational problems? Lots.

    Like any product, size and install it properly and it will take care of you. BTW, what is the warranty on black iron or soft copper? Listing?
    CSST is not perfect but it is a lot better than some make it out to be.
  • Eric_32
    Eric_32 Member Posts: 267
    Info received from...

    I joined a group called BCPGIA. Bristol County Plumbers and Gas Fitters Inspectors Association. Its been meeting once monthly as a way local inspectors get together and go over certain jobs in their town so all are on the same page. No "he lets us do it over there". They opened their meetings to any licensed plumbers to attend and ask questions or hear others. Pretty good time. A state inspector who is very close to the Board attends as well as members of National Grid. (gas co). Received notice from the secretary of the group who works for National Grid.
  • Eric_32
    Eric_32 Member Posts: 267
    CSST ban...

    MA state website probably hasn't been updated yet... we'll see, what happens. Don't use it on every job but it definately has it's places. Funny the CSST co. claims to have always recommend bonding. but I never remember it come up at ANY of the trainings for any brand, until after the lightning actually did the damage.
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    Eric

    I recieved an email this morning from the Mass PHCC thats said this is true. The e-mail claims CSST has been suspended untill the bonding issue has been resolved.

    Looking at the e-mail, it has no official stamp and could be a phony. I think someone is havin fun with this.

    I also checked with my local inspector who is Very Much up to date on things and he said he has gotten nothing from the State.

    Still nothing on the State Boards website.

    Scott

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  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,338
    My office

    has confirmed that CSST has been banned by a vote of the State Board at a meeting on the 26th and it took effect on the 28th.

    Our VP spoke to a Board member this morning.

    Evidently it was pushed by a representative of the Gas Company to the Board.

    Jack
  • Rich Kontny_3
    Rich Kontny_3 Member Posts: 562
    Another

    case of R&D in the field, remember the pulse boilers of the late 70s and early 80s? Rubber push joints for plumbing above grade? The Rheem drum furnace? and now the labor saving CSST with its thin walls, expensive price and severe liability issues.

    2# gas was pushed using copper in the late 80s, problems similar to CSST came up and lately I see black pipe once again used for 2# systems. Sometimes the dead men had it right!

    Rich K
  • CSST

    I received this e-mail from Vinny Best from National Grid explaining what this is about the other day, here is the message

    Steve Harold, member of the State Board of Plumbers/Gasfitters, just call to notify me that the use of CSST (Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing) has been suspended until further notice in Massachusetts.

    Jobs in progress can be completed but no new installations can take place. Steve will keep us updated.

    The issue involved is the bonding required by the manufacturers of the CSST. No agreement regarding who or how this bonding is to be completed has been reached.

    Vinny

  • al the plumber
    al the plumber Member Posts: 1
    csst

    csst is for homeownners that stuff is junk.
    i have all the certs for wardflex but i am too afraid that a homeowner will rfool with it when your gone. theres too many good lawyers that stuff is dangerous
    hey dan are you doing christmas for those kids in new york? if so please send me one thanks
    al gigli
  • Brad White_203
    Brad White_203 Member Posts: 506
    Thanks, Tim- Clarification?

    When you say "bonding", are you referring to the electrical discharge grounding method or to the legal/fiduciary aspects of bonding such as for insurance purposes?

    Dumb question, but I can take it!
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,701
    Our Plumbing board has been investigating this as well

    and many towns here have a moratorium on it. The problem here appears to be that the bonding and grounding issue and the fact that the ground clamp may not have been UL approved to work together. Glad we never installed it. Mad Dog

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  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,338
    Hi Brad,

    it has to do with the electrical grounding. It seems our Board and the Electrical Board have been bouncing this back and forth since the material was approved without coming to a resolution.

    I have not heard what precipitated the dramatic action taken last week as in a class just two weeks ago we were assured things were ok with CSST.

    I have a problem with saying existing permits and all previous installs, without the grounding, are ok but we can not install new permit projects until further notice.

    Politics?

    Jack
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    Hey Dog

    My understanding is that the Plumbers Boards wants the electrical bonding but wants the electricians to do it.

    The electrical board dosn't want the electrcian to be responsible for the gas system.

    And so .. the fight.

    Scott

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  • Why not make it like

    the Ansul systems for commercial restaurants, gas, electric and everyone has to work together to install those systems here in RI. To many kings in MASS. and no one dares to tell them they are all naked.
  • Dale
    Dale Member Posts: 1,317
    csst and the 09 code

    I agree with Timmie on this. It does need to be a team effort in most states. Ted Lemoff of AGA/NFPA recently showed upcoming changes in the 09 NFPA 54 fuel gas code, 7.13 and definitions "Bonding Jumper" and "Bonding Electrode" that make the requirement specific. My company currently follows the practice and has electricians run the # 6 wire into the electrical entrance panel, so it can be bonded to the grounding electrode. We don't want pipefitters working in a live panel.
  • Brad White_203
    Brad White_203 Member Posts: 506
    Thanks, Jack!

    I figured as much out of the context and comments. Politics? In Massachusetts? Nah, never. :)

    But then, the board is pretty good technically. I wonder if that Steve Harold is the contractor out of the Milton/Lower Mills area? Good to have pros in the board's composition.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    that's just it

    been down the bonding road before. Approved bonding clamps do not exist, so you need to find some black in the system downstream of the CSST. Whether or not this contitutes as an interruption of continuity (think Wardflex gaskets, et, al.), I don't know.
  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Member Posts: 1,029
    Timmie made a funny!

    I like that Timmie! You know there is much debate with mfrs. about what its going to take to sue the State over this non-elected Board, which weilds waaay too much power. Taxachoosetts has a rep. for being a very business UNfriendly place and this kind of stuff sure ain't helping. The CSST bonding issue has been debated and studied by the Code bodies, CPSC, CSA, and their associated grandmothers and uncles. In most any other case with the codes, you allow due process. Not is Mass. In the State infamous for panic legislation, they are at it again.
    Read my earlier post. Why don't you hear a similar buzz about soft copper? Heck, copper has been around forever and everybody loves it, right? No problems with copper right? Wrong! Copper suffers not only from lightning blowouts but pinched/ kinked tubing, penetrations by nails and screws, electrical shorts, leaky flares, and best of all copper sulphide black dust clogging valves blowing up houses. Gee, maybe we ought to ban copper, too? Come to think of it, I've investigated a lot of incidents where the gas valve was clogged with pipe dope, Teflon tape, rust, water, and other crud with black iron piping. I guess that needs to go, too.

    This hysteria was created not so much by short comings with CSST but the fact you can identify the mfr. readily even post fire so you know who to go after, unlike most copper.

    There is no reason I see for Mass to take this radical step. If it was such a problem, why didn't the IFGC and NFPA 54 Cmtes. shut it down? Because the current language is what they agreed upon. Just like any other code, it may require some tweaking to get it right.

    You can have the gas fitter do the actual bonding installation then pay an electrician to sign off on it. All you have to do is use an approved clamp on the first black iron fitting going into the CSST brass and bond that with #6 solid wire to a water line or other path back to ground. This does not need to be made so hard. Excess flow valves may be another route to consider, kinda like Firomatic valves on oil.

    Sorry but all this hysteria in Mass makes me appreciate more and more that I don't live or work there. What a zoo!
  • Dale, the problem is that

    Mass is still using the 2002 code as it takes them a long time to read the 2006 which has now been replaced by 2009. I am sure they will all catch up someday just not sure when.
  • Eric_32
    Eric_32 Member Posts: 267
    CSST

    I went to the Cont. Ed class in Sept. Burnt the CSST to death. Could have certified everyone there if they weren't already. But did not say one damn word bout bonding. I was very surprised. They allow you to install a CSST coupling in a concealed location if you have a long run, but if you have a nail puncture and it has to be repaired, you have to have an access panel at the location. Makes no sense. The repair was completed. Tested. Looks just like the coupling on the side of it. Why not allow to cover it up?
  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,338
    I asked

    that same question about a repair and the access panel Eric and after hemming and hawwing the answer was "we (the instructors) were told this is the way it will be".

    Same with the bonding issue. If it is an unsafe material it not only should be discontinued but all past installations torn out.

    We need the Board and an elected one would not solve anything as there has to be some way to keep continuity in the State-as hard as that is even with a Board. It is just hard to understand how some of these decisions are made but without some type of authority every inspector in the State would be making up their own rules. Some of whom still do that.

    Now, as for politics, anyone want to discuss why we have to stop at 10 stories for PVC--LOL. Can anyone say lobbyist?

    Jack
  • CSST Should Be Illegal

    I'm proud to say I have never used it. Natural gas is the second most dangerous piping we install, it deserves black iron. A builder I know had a job with 14 staples in it, from the finish carpenters. You could do the best install but someone comes along and puts a nail through it or cuts it with a sawzall. Think of the liability. CSST is a good example of the "Cheapening of America"- Black iron is "Old School Quality"

    Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    in 100 % agreement

    bob, i could not have said it any better. a sloppy , dangerous piping method. doubt if we ever approve it in n.y.c. no one wants to work anymore is part of the problem. destroys the pipefitting tradition.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,312


    I agree.Csst has benefits but they are outweighed by safety issues in my opinion it should be banned.

    Ed
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,226


    I didn't even know what this thread was about until I looked it up.

    That stuff's NEVER been allowed in NYC.

    ...except of course for 24" between a cooking range and a gas cock.


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  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    gas company service lines

    the gas company uses anything they want , as per usual. way too flimsey for my liking.
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