A few steam questions

Mark Custis

I try and keep what we do away fron the department of anti-commerace. I can not use "install boilers" or "repair boilers" with my internet service because of our ill-wtitten Ohio laws.

I too think that a working steam system would take a stand with the latest new tech stuff.

Under the Radar in Cleveland.

Glen

updating my instructional materials

for a local trade college. Here are my questions: boiler return traps: still available? and are some systems still in service and working? Vapor (subatmospheric) systems - still a current and viable method of steam delivery? and finally - vari vac: same question. I must comment that the instructional materials have not changed for steam heating since I was an apprentice so long ago - the math and science of course will not change - but I did anticipate some change to the steam heating equipment information.

[Deleted User]

Glen- You might want to contact Dan Holohan. He runs this site and has written several books on steam heating which would make very good texts for your students. His books are easy reading and keep your interest from cover to cover and are full of info on steam heating. I sat down one Saturday and read his "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and couldn't put it down. If all textbooks were written like Dan's, we wouldn't have any school dropouts!.

Jamie Hall

I might add to Rob's comments

yes, steam traps of all kinds (including boiler return) for home heating -- never mind commercial and industrial -- are still easily available. No problem.

Steam heating systems both domestic and commercial are very much alive and well.

Vapour systems likewise (I have one and love it).

Not too many new ones being built (although look around this site and you find some) because they tend to be a bit more expensive to install, and finding someone who even knows how to thread and spin pipe, never mind design and install a steam system is pretty hard to do.

Do get Dan's books -- you will surely find them handy as a reference, and one of them (A Pocketfull of Steam Problems) might be cheap enough to have the students buy...

Have at it!

Glen

i have them all -

wonderful books as is Dan and his generous hosting of this site. I ask only because the texts used portray these systems as obsolete and "not to be found". Here in Alberta a steamfitting/pipefitting ticket is required for industrial work - and the home heating or commercial aspect is a vital part of the training. thanks

Glen

and -

could you take a few pics for me??? will add it to my power points.

[Deleted User]

Glen- I wouldn't think steam would be found that much in Alberta so the term "obsolete" might apply. I lived in B.C. for a while and never saw one there. Most residential there were hot air.

I understand Ottawa is also heated by hot air!:)


However steam is alive and well on the east coast both in Canada and the US. It's generally found in houses built prior to WW2. I'm sure some of the guys on here have pictures that would be useful to you.

Glen

steam heat

has mostly been converted to hydronic. Still very much used in the industrial sector; power generation, oil sands recovery etc. I would hate to teach this as an antiquated method of comfort.

ttekushan_3

Its not technically antiquated.

I had a little time on my hands today so here's a bit of a ramble, but I think it touchs on the basis of your question.

Steam always lost the battle of first cost since it was considered a premium heating system for home use. Institutional settings are different so steam was king there for a long time. Once the hot water circulator was invented and the squirrel cage blower was used to create forced air heating, large pipes and ducts went out along with the materials and labor costs associated with them. The increased gap in first cost and the decreased gap in performance pushed out steam installations leading to an ever decreasing amount of steam expertise in the field.

So what can we do about that first cost problem? Interesting steam systems that came along over the years proved that similar materials and labor savings would work toward closing the price gap. [see the Library section for the European system AKA "Tudor" system, and the "SelecTemp" system by Iron Fireman. Each system also provided a boost in efficiency.]

In the builders' sidestepping the whole cost issue by installing water or forced air, there went steam and the accumulated body of knowledge that made it hum. Anecdotal evidence from reliable sources suggest extraordinarily economical performance from "right sized" new steam heat installed in modern homes. Radiators and piping are much smaller that you'd expect to see. We steam guys out there are waiting for the industry to do side by side comparisons of a fresh steam design, typical modern hot water radiant design and the usual forced air system, each installed in an identical house. I think the heating world would be shocked at how competitive a modern steam heating system would be in terms of installation cost and fuel consumption. As for comfort, well, even with one radiator tied behind its back......

New components that I think could be very useful are the orifice type or "maintenance free" steam traps. They're a calibrated orifice with a strainer. Can you see the proper restoration of vapor steam with this? I can certainly picture new vapor construction this way, but these have not crossed over into heating system use. Also orifice type Thermostatic Radiator Valves have become more popular as a comfort and energy saving device. If talk around Heatinghelp.com is any indication, multiple firing rate controls for steam boilers are coming on line for smaller and smaller applications. Why should industry be the only one to benefit? An example on a cast iron boiler is the Peerless MOD-U-PAK.

IMO, steam is actually far more complicated in its theory of operation because of the phase change inherent in the heating medium. You literally have a heating medium that seems to disappear, with a tremendous amount of heat energy and a vacuum left in its place. Its a completely different animal that can be neither designed nor analyzed with the typical engineering mindset. We're not measuring Delta Ts here! Even Delta P's can fake you out when some of the P is a condensible gas and the other a non-condensible one. Can you see where this goes wrong if you don't understand it? When the heating world assumes that steam must be stone-age simple because of its introduction being so long ago, they've made a big mistake.

The willful lack of education on the theory of steam heat operation ensures the mismanagement of these systems. Which gets to the last point of my ramble, a point that perpetuates the "antiquated" myth. Its not a technical problem:

The peeve I have is that licensing bureaucracies at the state level and the heating industry in general virtually assures that the person qualified to work on your steam heating system knows next to nothing about it. In Ohio where I live, your plumber is qualified to do basic service on your steam heating system. He needs to understand next to nothing about it. The HVAC person who is qualified to do the combustion analysis on your steam boiler needs to know nothing about steam heating to service it. The people who would get licensed for low pressure steam operation work in industry. They may understand steam, but will never work on heating systems. To get a hydronics license you need to know a lot about all forms of hot water heating, but virtually nothing about steam heating. Yet hydronics licensees are qualified to service your steam system.

Do you see the problem here? Only by the grace of (steam) God is the person qualified to properly service your steam heating system actually proficient at it. What we have is a self fulfilling prophesy of steam heating being antiquated. Do we make the ludicrous judgement that a modern radiant/modcon system is no different in its installation and efficiency from an 1895 open gravity water system? no. Can we make that 1895 system run with modern efficiency? yes. Can we accomplish the same with an 1895 steam system? yes. Do we? Typically no. If this notion of efficient steam operation seems quaint, its the self fulfilling prophecy at work.

If a specialized license for steam heating technologies were offered, you could have some assurance that you are getting proper service. Once you have the specialists out there, you would probably see a genuine resurgence in modern steam heat installations.

Jamie Hall

I wuoldn't use the term

'antiquated', never mind obsolete. A good steam heating system will still equal a good hydronic, every time. Problem is finding someone who can actually work on one without messing it up -- which is why you find what were perfectly good steam systems converted to hydronic.

If you can generate a few guys who understand steam heat, I'd say to go for it!

Glen

wow -

you did have some time. I think it is no different here - anyone with a ticket can have a go at the system - with little or no knowledge of types of traps, purpose or even why they work. (heavy sigh). And yes few understand the phase change that makes these systems work really well. What to do??? well I for one will try to offer up to date information and enthusiasm for the trade - steam heat in particular. But the reality is that the brothers and sisters here really need the "steam" classification to get to the highly lucrative oil sands projects - so steam heat is really the ugly sister or orphan if you wish. It is nice know that this site exists due to our host - and thanks for that.