a few steam heat questions!

David Nadle

I'm not a pro, so please don't take any of this as the last word:

It looks like that boiler has two riser tappings on the top and only one is used. You should check the install manual for that model and make sure the manufacturer allows the option of using only one riser. The pigtail is wrong but if your pressuretrol is a new microswitch one and not an old mercury switch one it's not that big a deal. Insulating those pipes and as much of the mains as you can could help with the banging you mentioned.

On the vent, it looks like you *might* have the height for a #2 but not the clearance to spin it. What you could do is screw in a street elbow or a close nipple and regular elbow, then add a series of close nipples and tees to create 2 or three sites for mounting multiple #1s. You can plug the last tee or make the last tee an elbow.

jackie_3

steam heat and radiator questions. Please help!

Hi EVERYONE.

I have a few questions and I hoping someone can PLEASE PLEASE answer them for me before the heating season really kicks into gear:

1) Am I suppose to hear any noise coming from the steam mains? (hissing) if not, how do I know its working?

2) how long does it take for heat to reach the radiators on the first floor. Just installed a Burnham steam boiler and it took 2hrs to reach 68 degrees from 59 degrees on a cold start. 1st start of season yesterday. Is this normal?

3) The reason it im guessing it took so long is because the unit keeps cutting off at 1.5psi and will cut in again at .5 psi. From reading the forum, I was under the impression that this is the most optimal setting for the pressuretrol. If so, why does it keeps cutting off? Am I burning gas efficiently?

4) Lastly, am I suppose to hear any steady hissing coming from my radiators? Is this the air that is being purged from my system? If so, does this mean my main vent is not working?

5) is it best to change out my bell shaped(guessing hoffman) vents from my radiator and put in varivalves so I can balance my system between the floor. Right now since I don’t have adjustable valves on the radiators, im setting the main feed knob on each radiator on the first floor to cut output just so my higher floors can get warmer faster.


All, I'd appreciate any help or inputs that can help me maximize performance of my system. I thank you in advance.

Paul Fredricks_9

A few questions first: What kind of steam system is it? Is there one pipe going into the radiators or two (one on each end).

Are there main vents on the mains? When the unit comes on do they let air out until they get hot? Once they're hot they should stop hissing.

On question #2: How long does it take for the radiators to start getting hot? The time it takes to raise the room temp could be endless depending on your house.

The unit starts and stops because it's up to it's working pressure. If it's cycling like that I would think the radiators should be hot.

Brad White_203

Some thoughts, Jackie

A lot of the issues you have are inter-related and sometimes interdependent.

No matter what I offer, others will have differing or concurring opinions and things that they look for from their experience. I have but one viewpoint.

In order of your questions:

1) Ideally, no noise at all, barely a whisper. If you have vents and they hiss, they are either clogged (partially blocked) or may be under-sized. If old ones, boil them in vinegar (with the steam system off, thank you!) and see if that improves.

If you are running at too high a pressure, that too can make a hissing sound. Your 1.5 to 0.5 range seems reasonable but it underscores to me that you need more venting.

If the hissing is coming from the piping either joints or pipe itself... you have a leak. Not hugely common so suspect the vents first.

2) Age-old question and everyone's system is different, but let's start with how long it takes to get steam to the radiators. (Hold that 'how long to heat the room question for just a moment.)

I would hope to see you making steam no less than ten minutes after firing from a cold start. Maybe less, but ten minutes seems plenty long. (Some boilers make steam in two minutes or less, so there is a range and room for improvement.)

From a warm start or between pressure cycles, the start of new steam in a minute or so depending on how hot the water is to start. Could be immediate.

I would hope to see steam filling your mains in under two minutes, maybe three. Assuming that they are well insulated and vented, this is to me, achievable.

I would hope to see you getting steam to your radiators somewhat during this time, but anything over 20 minutes to me needs improvement. (One recent post had is radiators all evenly hot in about nine minutes if I recall correctly. I say, "that sounds great to me".)

Now, how long to heat the space? In this weather? If the radiators are properly sized and filled with steam (meaning that the boiler is properly sized too), I would hope for a rise of about one degree every five minutes. Just a SWAG, it all depends on your mass, -not you Jackie, the house!-, how cold the start, any sunlight or other gains... you get the idea.

If the radiators are all fully hot and it takes that long, everyone who ever owned your house would have died of hypothermia by now. Many in fact are dead, I would bet. I am thus presuming that the steam radiators are correctly sized if not generous.

Yes, you are waiting too long.

3) The burner is likely going off on pressure due to inadequate venting. Air cannot get out. Steam cannot get in to replace the air. Pressure builds. Your pressuretrol thinks it is Wednesday afternoon at the State House and says, "Have a nice Weekend!". You weep.

I think you need more venting.

4) Bingo. If the radiator vents are hissing, they are doing too much work. It is all a system and all the radiators want to see steam at about the same time. Not a race really, but better main vents and "appropriate" radiator vents are all the rage these days.

5) And I thought #4 was lastly! Vari-Valves are pretty neat, look nice and vent very well when fully open. In my experience they spit like my great aunt used to, but that could be a wet steam condition. But for total venting capacity in an adjustable device, I like Heat Timer Vari Valves.

Brad White_203

Paul says much

in much fewer words... I have much to learn from Paul. I do.

jackie_3

To Paul.

There is 1 main vent I just put in. it’s a Gorton. I replaced it because the old one hisses, but now the new one still hiss. Its not a steady hiss, just hiss when steam or something is running down the main.

Yesterday my thermostat read 59 degrees. I turned on the heat for the first time yesterday and it took about 45 mins to hour before the radiator gets hot.

To Brad.

1.it’s a new main vent I put in two weeks ago.

2. Im way over 20 minutes before the radiators even get warm. The unit cycles on and off a few times (say 5x) before my radiators get warm.

So what is my problem?

3. Can I get by without venting? All my pipes are hidden behind walls and I would hate to tear my walls down. Will the system last long without better venting?
What are my consequences? I know its subjective, but I trust your opinion.

4. so the hissing sound is indeed air that is purging from my pipes huh? Does this mean my newly installed main vent is not working? Or undersized?


Paul, Brad. Thank you so much for your time. It is much appreciated. I will pick up varivalves this weekend.

nicholas bonham-carter

steam question

you would benefit from reading dan's book about steam heat available from the store on this site [i can see you are a hands on person!].
you may also benefit from a visit from a real steam expert to check out your system whose name you can also find here.if he is the right type of pro he can help you learn to do most things yourself for the future.
you may have for instance a sagging steam line or a clogged pigtail or even a low fire condition as a factor in the slow heat.--nbc

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Do You Hear Any

Banging in the pipes, when the heat comes up?

Thanks, Bob Gagnon

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Brad White_203

Venting

Hi Jackie

1) Even the new vent may be undersized or put another way, you can benefit from more venting it sounds.

2) Again, not enough venting. The air for whatever reason is not getting out and is back-pressuring the system so the pressuretrol shuts down the burner. You can increase the venting from that one tap you have by inserting a nipple, tee or elbow to horizontal, then adding nipples and tees to accommodate additional vents.

The good news is that you are making pressure- some burners run forever because of a leak in the system, especially above the waterline into the combustion chamber and up the chimney. You would never know it unless told about it. The boiler cannot make pressure so keeps firing while you are in the cold. Sparrows sitting on your chimney edge get a facial. Life can be like that.


3) You must vent but really only have to vent your mains and radiators. Main vents just vent the mains, obviously. The radiator vents take care of the radiators and the connecting piping. All of these locations should be accessible.

Piping that is concealed in the walls? It is unlikely that they were ever intended to be vented.

An unvented system will not allow steam in to fill the radiators. Period. It is not a matter of system longevity so much as that you are burning fuel but not delivering heat where you want it. From that perspective, what a waste.

jackie_3

Brad, thanks again. I will look into the issue.
I believe the pipes were hidden when the previous owner decided to finish the basement. So they hid the main pipe.

To Bob,
yes I hear occasional banging when the steam or heat hits the radiators. Please advise what you are getting at?

jackie_3

Brad, I will take a few pictures of my current set up and look to you for a few suggestions regarding adding vents.

Im guessing you are saying take out my current main vent, add a tee on it that accomodates a few openings to plug in additional main vents?

But if i do that, wouldnt the steam travel into the newly install horizontal pipe and not up the main to radiators?
please excuse the rookie questions. Im just trying to absorb as much info from you while still picking your brains.

Thanks BRAD!!

Brad White_203

Yes, photos please...

You have it exactly right on adding more vents. Basically using the tapping you have to the maximum.

No rookie questions here, you are asking good ones!

The idea is to get air out ahead of the steam and it is the steam that is pushing it. By venting the main, you are removing air that is preventing your radiators from getting steam. Venting will not "use" steam, it just removes air but holds the steam back in the pipe, maintaining pressure to allow your steam to go where it does you some good -your radiators.

The vents will release air until they see steam. Once the vent sees steam, an internal bellows expands and stops the steam from escaping but allowing the air out. Sort of like closing the barn door after the horse is gone, but stopping the cat that chased it.

When the steam collapses (condenses), it draws a vacuum and the vent, now cooled, opens to readmit air to break the vacuum. This is also good because a vacuum in your main would pull steam out of your radiators or at least hold it back. It all works together.


Steam will take the path of least resistance. The venting is all about making those paths seem equal to the steam. Does that make sense?

In other words, if each radiator, branch and main are properly vented, all of the radiators should get hot at about the same time.

Sorry to hear about your main pipes being enclosed! I mean, stylish is great and all. But cold is not stylish.

Nobody blocks decorators from entering houses like they used to, no siree.

jackie_3

Thanks so much Brad. you have been EXTREMELY helpful.
I will come back with pics tomorrow.
Are steam main vents suppose to get hot? yes right?

Brad White_203

Happy to help but

The others all have much to add, I am sure.

Helping diagnose steam systems by remote has large room for error and mis-judgement, so if in doubt, get someone professionally involved in there when you need to. You seem so capable that you may well take things pretty far on your own. Knowing when to say when is an art sometimes. In what city or town do you live? You may be in luck and near some of the best steam practitioners known.

The vent bodies: Yes, the will get hot when they see steam. Entirely normal.

Now, if they get hot and the steam system is not running, I would draw the outline of the Virgin Mary on the side of the vent and contact the media.

David Nadle

A few other points

jackie, if you have one pipe steam you can't use the valve knob to regulate the heat. That valve needs to be all the way open or all the way closed or you'll eventually damage the valve.

Is the Gorton main vent you put on closer to the size of a silver dollar, or the size of a DVD? If the hissing is loud that means the hole is too small. As Brad mentioned you can add a tee and additional vents.

With the mains cold, measure the time from when the boiler first starts to make steam (the riser pipe out of the boiler will get hot) to when the main vent gets hot. It will be normal to hear the vent during that period. Opinions will vary but I'd say if that time is less than 10 minutes you're OK.

One last piece of advice. Make one change at a time, then wait and watch what happens. Don't add more main vents and change rad vents in the same weekend or you won't be able to isolate the things that helped and the things that didn't, which can be important clues in diagnosing the system.

You mentioned the mains are buried. But are they insulated?

jackie_3

Thanks.
Mains are not insulated.
The Gorton main vent is about the size of a silver dollar, perhaps a tad bit bigger.

Thanks for the tip, i will go home and open the entire valve. I will regulate the output with a varivalve now.

Brad White_203

Hoo-Boy, Dave to the Rescue!

Dave asked a very good and very basic question regarding insulation. Good call.

Dave is right about the manual valve, it is either open or closed. No slightly pregnant there. Another good catch.

The Vari-Valves are, well, variable by definition. Adjust to suit but do wait and see between adjustments. Adjust sparingly.

The main vent- Ah, the Gorton #2 the size of a CD- I rather like that! Yes, Jackie, what you probably have is a Gorton #1. A Gorton #2 has about three times the venting capacity more or less. I would add more. Gorton #2's are a bit more costly but by adding more #1's, the a) fit better and b) allow better tuning to venting speed because of smaller increments.

David Nadle

You have a Gorton #1. If you measure the time to fill the mains and it's too long, I would replace that with a Gorton #2, if you have room for it. That's a much bigger vent and will clear your mains a lot faster. If you have the ceiling height, you can build a little tree out of pipe fittings and install the #1 next to the #2 so it doesn't go to waste.

Boston_2

Jackie

Brad,

If you don't mind I will jump in here with my .02... Jackie, I have been dealing with very similar issues as you. We just updated our boiler with a new Burnham, and I have been plagued with venting issues ever since, (Brad and Steamhead have been instrumental in resolving some of the problems). We have a 115,000BTU IN6 boiler, and it takes about 9 -10 min for it to produce steam, another 2 min to fill all the mains, 30 min to heat the radiators all the way across and 50 - 60 min to heat the house from 62 - 68. My system will cycle 2 -3 times during 50 - 60 min burn time. We intially had some run times that were in the 2 hour range. 4 things that i have found to help tremdiusly

1) Lower, lower, lower the pressure. The higher the pressure the longer it takes to heat the radiators. This was solved, by fast venting the main (Gordon #1), Insulated the crap out of most of my mains, and put fast venting Varivalve vents on most of the radiators (this has lead to some other issues that i will cover later)
2) Lower the pressure on the pressuretrol as low as it will go. My pressuretrol had some issues with going too low so currently i have it set to .75 on the main and .5 on the diff. Once i implement some of Brads suggestions i should be able to drop it down to even furthure ( i plan on investing in a Vaporstat)
3) Drop header - Made the largest difference for me. It dried the steam out big time. It didn't change the run time but i noticed that the acctual temperature of the radiators were hotter and putting out much nicer heat. It also reduced my waterhammer problems by 1/2. Now i have only one radiator the gurgles and bangs.
4) Water level in the boiler - i noticed that when i put the water level at the exact recomended hight that the instructions manual recommends, the whole system works better. For Burnham i think it's 24" from the floor to the top of the water line.. but i would double check that.

jackie_3

Dave/Brad/boston.

Thanks for the inputs. I need to check my local plumbing store for a gorton #2. I will look up the dimensions now and see if i have clearance for it. As stated, the mains are above ceiling panels so room is kinda tight. The number 1 there now is almost touching my wood floors from 1 level up.
Either way, pictures says a thousand words, you will see when i post tomorrow!!

David Nadle

Jackie,

Get some data on actual venting speed first; maybe the #1 is ok. There is also information available on this site that will tell you how much venting you need based on the pipe diameter and length of your mains.

Also, you mentioned ceilng panels. Can you remove the panels temporarily to access all the mains? If so it will be greatly worth the effort to insulate those mains, and the near boiler piping as well.

jackie_5

pics of my main vent and boiler

Brad/Dave,
Please give me comments on the main and its current location.

as for pressuretrol, is the pig tail installed correctly?

jackie_3

Thanks David.

As for the pigtail pressuretrol, what is wrong with the install? the pigtail should be perpendicular to the control right? The install now is parallel...

Main insulations are regular pipe insulations right? Are there special types for heating pipes?

David Nadle

Gottta be fiberglass

You need fiberglass insulation for steam. The foam stuff you might see on hot water pipes can't take the heat of a steam pipe.

Also, you should seek out a real insulation distributor because the insulation you'll find at Home Depot et al is only 1/2" thick and that's not enough. Search for insulation on this forum and you'll find lots of advice.

Brad White_203

Vent Location

Jackie, the vent looks like it is at the collision point at the end of the main, is that correct?

(Nice pictures by the way!)

The concern is that the steam and entrained water (or a slug of water just the same) will be forced to the end under some velocity, measured in feet per second or even miles per hour. This, upon impact, can force water and entrained solids up into the vent. (Having very dry steam is such a good thing, not that this prevents everything.)

I would suggest that you remove the vent and install a street elbow* or if you can fit it, a taller nipple and elbow to horizontal. This will be the start of your nipple-tee-nipple-tee-etc. "vent antler", ending in a plug.

The goal is to allow adding more vents but with at least some protection from a rush of condensate.

*Street Elbow = an elbow with one male end and one female end, designed to fit into a female tapping for a close fit in this case.

I have attached a diagram of a venting tree (double-sided illustrated) but to give you an idea of what can be done. You of course would make yours one-sided if double-sided will not fit.

jackie_4

thanks!

Brad, nice pic. now iknow what i need to do.
After seeing your pic, it appears that my vent is on the drop return elbow. Is this normal?

Can i add your street elbow to this part of the main as oppose to the middle as indicated?

I cant thank you and dave enough. I think i should be good after these questions. stay tuned for pics of the upgrade.

I finally saw pics of the gorton #2. they are HUGE. i dont think i have clearance for it so ill opt to add a tee with nipples for additional gorton 1s.

Brad, Dave, you guys are awesome. Thanks for the professional opinions and help. You guys are the very reason why folks save tons of money and epitomize forum chats!!!

Brad White_203

Glad

you could open it! (I had trouble, not sure why...)

Placing the vent at the drop return elbow is not advisable due to the collision effect. See in my diagram how the vent is held back by 15 inches and is raised by 6 inches? That is the ideal (an inch here and there should not make a difference).

In your case, we are just trying to get you to a compromise. One slug of water and your vent could be toast as it is. You also need more, I suspect.

The street elbow would be in place of that middle connection in the diagram and would send the horizontal piping off to just one side. If at all possible though, use a nipple (short piece of pipe) and a regular elbow to gain some height.

Note in my detail that I used a screwed union. This allowed me to assemble this on the bench and install it with one connection. There is NO WAY you will get a wrench up between joists to make this up in place. If you can, you are a goddess. OK, maybe you already are then.

The detail is one I made up for a friend with an under-vented system and it went into what was a capped (capped!) nipple. So sad but so much room for improvement. I used Gorton #1 vents and they did fit up between the joists. The only way to do this. I needed more than a Gorton #2 so gave her four #1's.

Yes, keep us posted!

Larry C_13

Dirty Boiler water

Jackie,

I am a home owner, not a heating Pro, however the sightglass shows very rusty / dirty boiler water. Two notes, do you blow down and test the low water cut off safety switch? When was the last time the boiler was checked by a oil burner professional?

Routine maintenance like filter changes, combustion checks, flame side boiler cleaning, etc. Is there a 1/4" hole in the metal smoke pipe where the oil tech used a combustion analyzer to verify the system was operating at peak performance and that no combustion products were leaking into the basement.

Larry C

jackie_4

This is a gas fired boiler, not oil. Not sure if your questions are still relevant?
Didnt know there were filters in gas burners? where can i find it and replace it? Please advise.

Brad White_203

Filters

I think the filter reference was one of those "default" suggestions regarding "air filters" every "Energy Savings Tips" pamphlet has. I really do not know.

I found it so interesting that hydronics (both steam and hot water) comprise about 6 percent of U.S. heating systems. The rest are largely forced hot air, heat pumps, but basically air-driven, hence the mention of filters, is just my guess.

The only "filter" regarding a gas burner that I can think of is a small stainless steel screen at the gas union connection to catch particulates, mis-applied ("applied at all!") Teflon tape and flakes from the piping.

Nothing I see as applicable to your situation, Jackie.

So! That aside, what is your plan now?

jackie_4

adding more vents!!

Unknown

Insulation

Hi Jackie-
Somebody mentioned you needed insulation. My headers were bare and after I insulated them it made a BIG difference!!!
I got my insulation from McMaster Carr. http://www.mcmaster.com/ Fast service and they UPSed the insualtion to me.
The insulation you want is on their catalog page 3419 - "Rigid Fiberglass Insulation for Pipe and Tube".
Check the chart at the top of the page and it will tell you the proper insulation ID for your size pipe. It comes in 3 ft sections. I used 2" thick and it worked out well. In the areas the tube insulation doesn't fit you can use multiple wraps of "Home Depot" insulation and cover it with duct tape (Home Depot) Not very pretty but works well. You might want to use gloves when handling the fiberglass.
If you get a bit on you and it's itchy, a good cure is to wrap some tape (masking tape) on your hand with the sticky side facing out (away from your skin) and then just pat the place that is itchy. This usually picks up the fiberglass dust causing the itch. It generally isn't that itchy just that's it's nice to have the "cure" if you need it!

Mc Master's prices aren't bad though maybe someone else here can suggest a better source.

Mad Dog_2

It would BEHOOVE you to access FAP

at this site, and get an evaluation. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Tim_64

Pipe insulation

Mcmaster Carr is a great resource, and they have distribution centers all over the country.

Another source is MSC direct

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=4259&PMITEM=37031051&PMCTLG=00

that should be the page for pipe insulation, they also have kits for the various pipe joints.

Stewy_2

If I could throw out a suggestion,

your equalizer pipe should come straight down off the header, yours makes a 90 and then goes down. Plus I'm not sure if its the picture, but it looks pitched back toward the header which can all be adding to your dilemma

jackie_4

Header? What is that and in what pic are you referring to?

Brad White_203

The header

is the largest "First Horizontal" pipe coming out of the boiler, Jackie.

It is the pipe from which all steam from the boiler enters, from which all steam to the radiators leaves and, properly installed, which immediately returns any excess moisture sucked out of the boiler right back to the return side of the boiler, to make dry steam.

The equalizer is usually a the end of the header, after the outgoing steam has left, one hopes. It drops to the boiler and is usually 1.5" pipe size at least.

All of this is stating the ideal, too many installations differ.

Ja_3

Hi (again) Brad!

Brad, ya just cant get rid of me cant ya?
Please see the attached.
If i understand you and Stewy, the Red line is the header and the orange line is the equalizer?
Should i have someone remove the elbow on the green line and run the equalizer straigth down?
I would have to rotate the first elbow counter clock wise then reconect the equalizer correct?

Thanks guys!

Ja_3

Hi (again) Brad!

Brad, ya just cant get rid of me cant ya?
Please see the attached.
If i understand you and Stewy, the Red line is the header and the orange line is the equalizer?
Should i have someone remove the elbow on the green line and run the equalizer straigth down?
I would have to rotate the first elbow (black line) counter clock wise then reconect the equalizer correct?

Thanks guys!

Brad White_203

Hi Ja!

Your labeling is correct on all counts. As for turning the equalizer, that is a good idea but not essential. As often as not I have seen it that way or turning at a 45 then dropping vertically or going straight to the end and dropping down.

I say, if it is not broken, don't fix it, but others may disagree.

That said, what is the pipe sizes on your header and equalizer? They look a little small but granted not much to scale from. The equalizer wants to be a minimum 1.5 inches pipe size, the header at least 2 inches but your boiler piping diagram provided by Burnham would govern. No harm in going larger though. Many have with excellent results.

Larry C_13

Re: Filters

All,

I assumed that the steam system was oil burning. Obviously I was mistaken.

Larry