2 pipe steam issues

Rexford

I have a customer with a 2 pipe steam system. It has a split loop, one to the front of the house that supplies most of the radiators and one to the rear that only handles 3 radiators. The front loop works fine it has a trap installed at the end of the main steam pipe, and at the beginning of the condensate return. The piping to the rear of the house does not have a trap between the end of the main steam pipe and the beginning of the condensate return line. The condensate return piping actually is higher in elevation towards the end of the loop. From conversation with the owner the rear loop never worked properly. All the radiators on the rear loop have new traps and throttle valves. I believe the rear loop will require a trap and relocate the condensate piping so that it is below the main steam line. Also there may be a pitch issue with the rear loop. The main steam line is pitched up from the boiler all the way to the last branch. I notice the front loop that waorks fine starts high at the boiler and pitches slightly down towards the trap and condensate return. There may even be a sizing issue. Anyone want to give me their thoughts, Thanks!
Rex

gerry gill

if the line

is counterflow, then whats the trap going to do for you? my question is where does the air get out?

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Rexford

2 pipe steam

The only air vent I see on the whole system is at the top of the condensate return near the boiler.

Timco

it needs to be able to push air out freely as traps close. I would ensure there is not a place on the non working areas returns that is trapping condensate and not allowing air to make it to the vent since traps are working and not stuck shut.

Mad Dog_2

Like many systems we see........

Alterations and changes are made to these old systems by people that are grasping at straws. As the boys said, air has to get out. Mad Dog

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Rexford

Air vents

Thanks for the responce everyone! Any suggestions on where to place the vent or vents?

Rexford_2

air vent

Where would you suggest putting a vent?

Timco

many 2-pipe systems have no vents on the rads, just a main vent on the condensate collection tank. If you have traps, no rad vents.

Steamhead (in transit)

That's the only vent you need

assuming there is a way to vent the steam mains. And the vent has to be big enough for the whole system.

Check for radiator traps piped between the steam mains and dry returns- these would act as main vents.

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Steamhead (in transit)

See

my post above.

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Timco

D-OO!! sorry to step on ya, man. You said that already...

Tim

Rexford_2

no tank

I did see some schematics showing a condensate tank, but this system does not have one. It may have been removed during the last boiler change. I think the boiler was kind of thrown in by the last contractor. It has only one 2" main off the boiler where in the past I have seen 2 making a steam header. I believe this utica should have the header, It shows it in the installation manual. Other than that the rest of the piping resembles a 1 pipe system. It does have a trap at the end of the main before coming back as condensate return. There is one air vent at the top of the condensate return before the hartford loop. This portion of the system seems to be working, the problem is they made a branch off of the main that supplies 3 radiators with 1 1/4" pipe off of the 2" main it steps down a size at each radiator branch total run from 2" main is about 25'. Then goes to the radiators each radiator has throttle valves and traps. The traps are piped with 1/2" to a 3/4" condensate return and back into a branch into the 1 1/2" condensate return before the hartford loop, the return run is also about 25'. I believe this loop is not breathing properly as others have commented. Where should I attempt to install a vent and what size should I start with.

Steamhead (in transit)

Actually, you didn't

I posted both of those after you did. No apologies needed.

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Timco

look at the pics in steamhead's post about the vapor system. You can see the green vents. There is no tank on his.

Tim

Rexford_2

Traps

Steamhead
There is a radiator trap placed between the main 2' run and the Dry return, and this is the portion of the system that is working. Should I install another radiator trap on between the main steam line and the dry return on the portion of the system that is not working? I looked at your post but didn't see a picture showing vents That Timco spoke of on a 2 pipe steam system. Maybe I'm missing the link.

Jamie Hall

one would think...

that the traps on the radiators would let the air out of the radiator and into the condensate return. Doesn't seem to work that way...

There should be a radiator trap, as several have said, at the end of that misbehaving steam line, just looping over into the dry return. That will let the air out of the steam line, and get it back to the vent. Shouldn't need another vent.