Viessmann Vitirod 100

Bruce M_2

Let everyone know who you are instead of hiding.

k

Viessman vitirod 100

Curious as to what you all think of the viessmand vitirod 100 vs the Burnham mpo ? as a homeowner, have been presented both solutions to me, and about the same money.
looking for honost opions, pros, cons of each.

Robert O'Brien

Much more

important than the choice of Viessmann or Burnham is the choice of contractor.A boiler is not a self contained appliance like a refrigerator or a dryer.
It's a system made up of many components built by many manufacturers and custom assembled on your site,the boiler is only one of these components and the least likely one to cause problems down the road.
The warranty on any boiler is useless to a homeowner without a contractor to support the products he installs.
Pick the contractor you have faith in and ask if he'll install the one you prefer. Either way,you need some type of ODR to gain the full benefit of Viessmann or Burnham

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Glenn Sossin_2

space

The MPO requires alot of floor space in front and in back to clean properly. I suggest you look at the installation manual.

My $.02
Glenn

Bruce M_2

Viessman

Viessmann is the better boiler. Contact Viessmann and they will put you in contact with a qualified contractor. You want good equipment and a good installer. When you sign a contract for installation make sure to include a paragraph that states that the equipment will be installed according to the manufactures installation manual. If the contractor refuses to agree to that paragraph, look elsewhere. Most of the contractors that are not competent tend to use the cheaper lower efficient boilers and furnaces.

http://www.vitoteam.com/reward/info_kit_new.php

Weezbo

care for a second opinion?

i might say to you a professional , that the BTU requirements might outweigh the manufacturers moniker or the colour of the Skin..

i have so many things keeping me busy these days that i havent seen smaller mpos that match the viessman..

so if i am wrong and there are smaller MPOs being made perhaps you will feel free to help me on this one..

i just checked on the virtual trade show ..

wells *~//:) i see a 74 .... looks like there is something New i Love this place

i have to say that was very cool thing ..i would dial in the boiler based on the required BTU for the building though and space considerations is also some minor technicality at times..i have installed both boilers and i have no problem with either boiler.

thehvacman1518960

Hey Bruce, Are You Kidding?

Bruce says "Most of the contractors that are not competent tend to use the cheaper lower efficient boilers and furnaces"

Wow, is that a cheap shot at 98% of the boiler installers out there! What's in the Kool-Aid Viessmann is feeding you? What's their market share? 2% maybe. You must be proud to be part of such an elitist group. That's beyond insulting.

There's probably a couple of million Burnham boilers purring like kittens in the USA right at this moment and maybe 100 Vitorond's out there. They released this cheapo to try to gain market share. There has also been combustion issues with this low end model.

MPO - 87% (from Burnham site)
Vitorond 100 - 86.9% (from Viessmann site)

Quit blowing smoke up our *&^%s and get your facts straight before you bash contractors and manufacturers!

Magnehelic

Mr. O'Brien is Right on the Money!!!

Dear Homeowner,
Robert is ABSOLUTELY correct in steering you toward the CONTRACTOR rather than a brand name. there are a myriad of good options out there as far as condensing boilers go......even a condensing modulating cast iron "lil Ray" and any of them will do a fine job for you if they are installed correctly. Also I want to say that ANY ONE OF THEM COULD FAIL THE VERY NEXT DAY!!!! What the contractor does to resolve problems when they arise is 1000 times more important than which pretty little box you choose. Shop the contractors......not the boilers.

my $0.01 worth.

Don

Cosmo_3

I agree with one of the posts above, first things first- buy the correct size boiler.

Of course make sure the contractor is a reputable one. I have not heard any major complaints about the MPO, actually quite the opposite it seems to be a very efficient and easy to clean boiler.

I have 6 Vitorond 100's installed and they in my opinion are among the best bang for your buck in cast iron today. I especially like with the riello burner, and the stainless combustion shield. VERY CLEAN burning!!

In the end forget about brands and find the best fit.

Bob Bona_4

settle down Bruce

Competent contractors offer a range of equipment to meet the customer's budget and/or situation.

If I send a client here to get further educated, I would expect non-biased advice or at least hardcore explanations why something is better than something else.

thehvacman1518960

Insulting to say the least

Looks like the Burnham MPO has a better efficiency rating, so what makes the Viessmann so much better? Please explain clearly so that non competent installers can understand...

Rick

*No wonder the manufacturers have deserted this site. They got tired of being bashed.

EDIT: Bruce you never answered why it's better even though it has had combustion issues and a lower efficiency rating? Please explain... Thanks

JackR

I would agree........

that some Viessmann products are better than the rest but I certainly would not put the Vitorond 100 in that class, I stopped using them at the end of last year. I had numerous combustion issues with the boiler using the Beckett NX which they were pushing at that point, and yes I own digital test equipment and now how to use it. I switched to the MPO and found it to be much higher quality overall than the VR100, frankly the VR100 looks and feels " Cheezy " compared to the rest of the Viessmann line. I've certainly had an issue or two with Burnham in the past but have been extremely happy with the MPO and Burnham as a whole lately.

yours truly,
" Just Another Incompetent Contractor"

Bruce M_2

You Missed the Point

A competent and conscientious contractor/installer can install any residential boiler regardless of make or price. The incompetent contractors tend to be the "low ball" contractor and as such they are usually not using high-end equipment. A contractor/installer who takes pride in his work will give the same attention to detail and the same high quality craftsmanship to the lowest price boiler that he installs. If you look at Ron Jr and Kenny's installation you will see what I mean. Pride in you work product is what I am talking about. In this time of high energy prices it does matter which boiler is installed. It is life-cycle cost which is important and not the initial cost.

Bruce M_2

AFUE

The present AFUE ratings can be off as much as 25% If you read the NORA policy and the Brookhaven National Lab test you may understand. There is also the fact that boilers have a winter and a summertime efficiency rating that is markedly different. There are many reasons that some contractors push a certain make boiler and it is often because that is what the local wholesaler sells or that is what is in stock or because they get a better price. Here is a link to a NORA policy that may help you better understand the AFUE and the weakness in using that as a valid comparison tool.

http://www.nora-oilheat.org/site20/uploads/NORA Policy r7.pdf

Bruce M_2

Viessmann Vitorond 100 v Burnham MPO

Burnham MPO AFUE 87% Viessmann Vitorond 100 AFUE 86.9% Vitorond 100 has the ability to modulate boiler water temperatures when using Vitotronic control options. It also has an available boiler return injector. In addition, the Viessmann has more insulation. The tenth of a percent difference in AFUE is inconsequential because it is not a true measure of boiler efficiency.

JackR

?

So are you saying that the Vitorond 100 could be only 65% AFUE efficient?

JackR

MPO

The MPO has standard return injection, not " Available " and water temperature can also be modulated via outdoor compensated control. I believe they both have 3" Insulation.

Bruce M_2

Efficiency

Not saying that but with the present AFUE testing system there is not enough information to make a wise decision. If you look at the Energy Kinetics web site you will see that they have a large objection to the present AFUE rating system. I agree with their analysis and here is the link for you:

http://www.energykinetics.com/afue.html

Bob Bona_4

killing me

Bruce.

The visiting HO can surmise from your posts:

If it's not a Viessmann, it's inferior.

If it's inferior, the offering contractor is most likely incompetent.

If he happens to be not incompetent, he is an opportunist with no regard regarding his clients interests, i.e. "tag sale" boilers in stock, offering only the least expensive boiler he can purchase himself, not bothering to diversify due to blind wholesaler loyalty, etc.

Sure like to paint w/ a broad brush, eh? It seems like just about every post I have seen you make over the last year has had some sort of disparaging remark about contractors, manufacturers, service people, installers..veiled or blatant. I have seen more than one respected rep leave this place partly because of your instigating and insinuating.

Not cool. I think I remember Dan even has had to step in at least once. What's up w/ that? I'm getting the feeling you have a dim view of the trade..

On the bright side, I'm seeing some nice cut and paste links!

Bruce M_2

Please Reread My Posts So You Can Better Understand

First, I did not say that if it is not a Viessmann it is inferior. The question was about two different and specific model boilers. Viessmann is a family owned business that is run by Dr. Viessmann. They have 12 manufacturing plants worldwide and have been in business since 1917. They have a sterling reputation for excellence. The other company has a reputation for cracks in their V7 series boilers. The huge number of posts on that topic clearly attest to that. The preponderance of their product lines are old-school.
Second, I did not say that if it is an inferior product that the contractor is incompetent. I said that a competent contractor/installer could install any brand of boiler.
The major point I was making was that by installing an MPO boiler with an AFUE that is 1/10% higher than a Vitorond 100 is faulty reasoning and will not determine oil usage.
On the other hand, I am glad you like the links that I posted. I do that so you can see that there are some very smart people who are testing boilers and trying to create a new AFUE measurement system that can more accurately serve the consumers and installers and in the end, cut energy usage.
The last point is that I would recommend that this homeowner install a System 2000 Frontier.

thehvacman1518960

Thanks Bruce for proving Burnham is better

Every time you explained it further you threw more dirt on Viessmann. "People who install inferior equipment are incompetent" What about incompetent posters? I have seen terrible Viessmann installations, what then? The world must fall off it's axis. Your statements damaged any credibility you may thought you had on this site. Think before you type, you called out 98% of this site and degraded them. You are a fantastic advertisement for Burnham! Thanks! Buy American, especially now.

MPO MPO MPO MPO MPO MPO MPO MPO MPO MPO MPO MPO

Bruce M_2

Viessmann Market Share

Franz you make a foolish claim about Viessmann by saying "What's their market share? 2% maybe." The truth is that they have over 8,000 employees, they have 12 manufacturing plants spread around the world including one in North America. Their technology is so far superior to Burnham Holdings products that any comparison is laughable. Viessmann's new Vitoladens 300-C oil fired condensing boiler has already won awards. The Viessmann Academy trained over 70,000 people last year. How many people were trained by Burnham? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but they are not entitled to their own facts

thehvacman1518960

US Market Share

Less than 2%. Worldwide different story, here-nonexistent and unimportant! You can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig!

Bruce_26

Franz, Tell Us More

Perhaps you can tell us where you got your information stating that Viessmann has a 2% market share.

JackR

Are you so sure?

I would investigate a little further before throwing stones at a manufacturer for having a problem. Are you sure Viessmann has never had any problems with their equipment anywhere else? I would check your facts!! Every and I mean Every manufacturer has had a problem at some point in time. Viessmann has the luxury of taking their older equipment that has been around for at least a decade and introducing it into the U.S. as " New ". It is real easier for them to claim superiority when you have virtually no past history available other than the U.S. Market. Everyone has a skeleton in the closet, history has taught us with great success come great failure along the way, if Viessmann has never had a problem they should be recieving a Nobel Prize.

I truly have nothing against Viessmann and think they do make some good products, but I have a sour taste in my mouth from people like you who put themselves and a Viessmann up on an alter so that the less than worthy can bow in awe .

I'll stick to being incompetent.

Sam G._2

Installing my 1st Vitorond 100

I am an oil dealer and a lic. Master plumber. I have taken a job where the homeowner is supplying a Vitorond 100 with a Becket burner. PEX, Randiant and baseboard, & direct vent to the outside. Nice job - Nice homeowners. The project was sized by a factory rep. I read this site on occasion and saw the postings about Vitorond. QUESTIONS: 1) What combustion problems? 2) What are the solutions? 3) Anything else I need to know about this boiler? 4) Did I just commit contractor suicide?

As a footnote: Why all the anger on this site? I only read and post "occasionally" due to being attacked several years ago when I stated that copper was "within code" for use in steam systems. This stuff is not universe ending like Jets Vs. Giants.

Cosmo_3

the problem is......

Electronic mail messages can be a cold communication medium, and we are much more talented at using tools than finding the correct words to fit the emotion of a statement.

I think there a lot of instances where a comment that in and of itself is not that controversial, however if one person reads a comment and interprets it a certain way due to a prior disagreement, or an individual sensitivity, can be amplified and then after reactions are countered things just get out of hand quickly.

Part of the reason that I disappear from here from time to time is the bickering gets me disinterested quickly, we have to deal with a lot of stresses in our professional careers and I have a short attention span for nonsense.

I would also like to point out that if you can just gloss over the nagging usually both sides of an argument bring good points to the table.

I agree with some things mentioned by both Bruce and Bob. All manufacturer's bring products to market that sometimes stink. However it is how the company takes care of these situations that matters.

One important point I would like to make is that the worst thing that could happen in my opinion is for guys like us to get too attached to any one brand without admitting that competition is good, there are many ways to do the same thing, and an open mind is better than being stubborn.

I like Viessmann products, and because they are a big player they may have an advantage in the R&D department. Viessmann and Burnham have their own places in the market, V has a broad product line that includes more than just boilers, Burnham as far as I know (I could be wrong) seems to be more focused on steam and hot water boilers. The MPO is in fact a very good boiler, I have service contracts on 2 of them that I do annual cleanings and I do think it is a quality boiler and would not hesitate installing one in my own home.

I was attracted to this site because of people like Dan, Hot Rod, ME, and GrandPAH, etc (there are many more) who just like to learn about what ALL the brands have to offer, share their experiences, and can be unbiased and polite enough not to get into these petty arguments, but will pick their battles carefully.

Thanks,

Cosmo

Shane_2

Thank You Cosmo

I couldn't agree with you more.

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Supply House Rick

Open Letter To Bruce

Bruce,

Please illuminate us as to how many Viessmann Boiler you have personally installed.

Please post pictures of these jobs.

Please stop speaking for 2% of the boiler installing population or the 98% will respond quickly and efficiently (89% efficiency-not 86.9%)

Your credibility is gone, you can help restoring it by answering some questions and posting pictures. The clock is ticking, ball is in your court.

Bruce M_2

Very Brave of You

It is good to see that you are very brave and hide behind a phony name and a phony e-mail. Try being a man and a person of integrity.

Supply House Rick

You are ducking the questions

Man-up and answer. You lacked integrity when you made a very stupid statement

Rick_78

We've got you Bruce

Time to answer or pay the piper!

Franz

[Deleted User]

Tough situation

I install Viessmann and Buderus only because they were the top 2 boilers that had a three pass design. The VR 100 is not the top of the line but a great and competitivly priced boiler. I have at least 12 of them all with Reillo Burners and have had no problems in the last 4 years.
Burnham is a great company that is making big strides to catch up with the current market and the demand for a more efficient boiler. The MPo is a 3 pass boiler and has gotten great reviews. Burnham is still known for Pin type designed boilers and coming with a Taco 007 circulator.
Always shop the installer first. Get a true heat loss done for the house and match a boiler to that heat loss. Oil fired boilers are usually oversized in most applications, hopefuly some day we will see a modulating residential oil fired boiler.
You will never see over 88% with any type of oil boiler so the best thing to do is install a 3 pass boiler with a weather responsive control. It doesnt matter what type of boiler or control. We all have our favorites and try to protect them like they are part of our family. It is not fair to pick on one manufacturer they all have a flaw some where.

Darin Cook_5

Highest Efficiency Oil Boiler

Go with the Buderus G125 BE blue flame burner. 89+% AFUE. You want condensing oil go with the Buderus GB 125 BE 93% AFUE. Efficiency that will stay the same from day 1 till 20 years down the road. Blue Flame = No Soot!






Darin

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Cosmo_3

Oil fired boilers:

Peerless makes a 93% AFUE oil boiler, the largest input btu is about 84,000btu. This boiler is the perfect size for most small houses, although I do not have personal experience with one.

Buderus just came out with the G125BE that is claimed at above 89%, and you must be certified to install it. This boiler seems to be the successor to the G115 series, which itself is a great boiler.

And of course the venerable Viessmann Vitola I believe even at 87% is the cleanest burning boiler I have ever worked on, and the 87% rating is very underated. With it's awsome insulation package and hi water content it provides it's better efficiency by working off of a wide differential. This is just like installing a buffer tank.

There have been many threads here about the relative insignificant value of AFUE when it comes to rating the total efficiency of the hydronic system as a whole. Companies like Energy Kinetics, and Viessmann try to make this point but I think it falls on deaf ears, everybody wants to see the number on the yellow sticker...

And though I thought I made my point, but I will repeat it, can we please stop bashing each other? What are we 5 years old? Enough already

Cosmo_3

Hey Darin

Have you installed a G125BE yet?

I missed the opportunity to sit through the certification class, and have to wait for a while for the next one. It does look cool!!

Tell me what you think about it


Cosmo

R Mannino

Email

Excellent post Cosmo, email also lacks body language. Those of us with names ending in vowels need that.

Ron

Cosmo_3

Body language is sometimes considered an art form...

However with the typical body type in our trade.... sometimes not getting the visuals is better.

Haha, yes Ron your point is correct. I am usually a very sarcastic person and in the past I have tried to be funny using my well refined art form however sarcasm just doesn't translate well without the timing you hear, and the wrinkled eyebrow you can see when it is delivered!! So I learned to keep my mouth... I mean fingers quiet.

As far as the flying hands, most people don't realize the reason we do that is because you Italians, and us Greeks have had to evolve with flying hands simply because we are trying to block the spit missiles when we communicate to each other. It's just sanitary...

Una Fatsa, Mia Ratsa

Cosmo

R Mannino

Latest Post

Although only words possess a great deal of body language and some sarcasm (just a little). It is still very difficult to convey (body language) through a posting or email, but you made your point! Technically I'm not part of the trade and just an HO, but I know the body type your talking about, thanks for the visual, I think?

Now don't make us tie your hands behind your back.

Ron

Cosmo_3

Haha point taken!!

Cosmo

JackR

I'm going to wait a while

........ to see how the the condensing oil goes, I think it will go through it's growing pains before the market matures. I stopped using Viessmann years ago because every time I put one in a year later I would have to go back and undo what the service company had screwed up. I'm sure the GB125E is a great boiler but I don't think it is ready for the USA yet. I can't imagine what the local service guys will do with that burner id they get their hands on it!!!!