Help PLeASe!

Brad White_197

Norm Harvey is in Weymouth- I barely got that last post out before my Internet Cafe´ connection here in Copenhagen ran out on the timer. Weymouth. How is that for close, right next door!

Give Norm a call or e-mail him

Norm (at) indoil.com.

Norm knows steam, radiant and above all, oil burners, that is his specialty. Hard to beat Norm for his skill set matched to your needs and your location.

Whew.

Let me know how it all works out.

Kelly Gilbert

Help PLeaSe! Should I convert to gas?

We bought a small 1,200 sq.ft. Cape 7 years ago and within a year the new Burhnam oil burner died. Still under warranty, our trusted oil company told us it was a lemon model and Burhnam replaced it. Last year we used 1,074 gallons of oil. The new 12-month budget plan starting August 1st is $440 a month, compared to last years $200 a month. Thinking of borrowing to switch to gas, a plumber told us yesterday, our burner is a 6 section and all we need is a 3. ON top of THAT, he also said the nozzle is way too small. Has our oil company been bleeding us dry? Should we covert to gas? We had a hard time paying $200 a month, no way can we come up with more than twice that amount. Thanks for any help you can give us. I'm so dumb I don't even know if I have a steam boiler or a hot water boiler. Should we stick with oil and have the nozzle replaced? What about the boiler? Could we sell the boiler?

Al Letellier_9

swithcing fuels

I hate to admit it, and not all oil companies fall into this catagory, but yours sure sounds like it.....their primary mission is to sell oil.
Find a good independent heating contractor and do it right: heat loss, connected load, hot water needs,etc. THEN select the right equipment. Oil prices are falling and gas prices are rising, so its not an easy choice. Whichever way you go, buy the best equipment you can afford and do outdoor reset. It sure sounds like your boiler is oversized and that means wasted energy. Choose carefully and do it correctly for max heating efficiency and comfort. Good luck

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J.C.A._3

Kelly,

#1. Find out IF the oil company installed it... BEFORE running them over.(It may have been another contractor that installed a 3 X over sized boiler)
#2. They MAY have been trying to lower the firing rate to make the over sized boiler work more efficiently.
#3. That is WAY TOO MANY GALLONS for a home of that size and my first thought is to have a good insulator take a look and make some recommendations....before having a heatloss done, and THEN size the boiler properly.

#4. Gas or oil ? If I knew the answer to that...I'd be working on Wall St.... not so much, as a heating technician. JCA

Leo_13

I totally agree with JCA.

Kelly,

I totally agree with JCA's post. As far as a smaller nozzle being done to rip you off, a lot of oil guys think they are saving people money doing this when the system is just too big. Years ago people thought oil companies would use larger nozzles to rip people off. As an oil guy I install what the rating plate calls for but I probably get accused of ripping people off also. People are just very distrusting of oil because of past foreign issues yet they trust a big monoploy like the gas company. It is something I have learned to accept.

Does your house have steam or hot water as it makes a difference in how the boiler is sized.

Leo

Steamhead (in transit)

Some boilers can burn either oil or gas

which means you would not need to buy a new boiler to switch fuels- a pro could swap the burner and a few trim items and tune it, and you'd be on the other fuel. Of course you would need to have the infrastructure each fuel would need, but you would not have to buy a new boiler.

Basically, this setup involves a wet-base boiler that can use either an oil burner or a power gas burner. On gas you also get better thermal efficiency than the usual atmospheric gas boiler.

At the moment, Burnham doesn't support the use of power gas burners in their residential wet-base boilers. But other companies like Smith and Solaia do. We use the Smith 8 series for steam (it's called the G-8 when sold with the gas burner) and the Solaia for hot-water. Here are pics of these boilers, equipped with gas burners.

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Kelly Gilbert

I watched the oil company install it. The home appears to be well insulated--have to check into that. We have brand new windows, and no drafts. Thanks for taking time to reply. Greatly appreciate it.

Kelly Gilbert

I really don't know anything about nozzles. Should I get a new larger one? I believe we have steam heat and that it is a steam boiler. With this boiler, I have never seen any steam, so it was hard for me to tell at first. With the older (smaller) boiler the radiators heated up and once in a while steam came out those whistles on the side. I complained to the oil company more than once that this boiler was running all the time in the cold weather, and was even cycling I think, (stopping after a long time and starting right up again and stopping) and it took FOREVER for the radiators to heat up and the house was never really warm unless I turned up the heat which kept the darn boiler running constantly. They never gave me any feedback at all.

Kelly Gilbert

A representative from the Gas Company told us we could covert the burner using a conversion kit which would cost us $2,000 just for the kit. She couldn't figure out if we had forced hot water or steam! Needless to say, I wasn't too impressed with a sales rep who didn't even know what we had in the house.

Would I really want to keep this boiler if it runs for hours and it takes forever to heat up the radiators? By the time you wait for the house to heat up, your either in blankets or in bed. It runs constantly in the winter and the raditators never really get hot unless I turn up the heat, and then the boiler just keeps running and running.

The bedrooms on the second floor never really get hot either. It's always warmer on the first floor.

Robert O'Brien

Kelly

Based on what you say it sounds like you have a steam system,an underfired steam boiler will run forever.Why don't you post some pics ?

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ttekushan_3

Good call on the undersize.

If the boiler runs forever, its just simmering and producing little steam for the amount of heat going through the boiler and straight up the chimney. All other things being equal, I'd upfire the beast an let it cycle on/off on steam pressure.

Their idea of putting in a smaller nozzle is OK except they overdid it. Its evident that the threshold of meaningful steam output is not being cleared. I'd rather see the boiler operate at its proper firing rate and control steam pressure using a vaporstat so you can heat with VERY low pressure steam. I wouldn't be surprised to see oil usage drop 30 to 50 percent of what you are using now.

I really think you can save a bundle and dramatically increase comfort with little investment in this case.

-Terry

Kelly Gilbert

Here's some pics if they will help....

I don't know if I got the right parts of the furnace. Please know I appreciate all the help I have been getting on this website very much.

If I knew where the nozzle was, I would take a picture of it. If I knew where the nozzle tag was, I would take a picture of it. As you can see, I took a picture of EVERY PART OF the boiler that I could. Sorry so dark. It's right in front of a wall, so it's a tight spot to get at.

Weezbo

you have some good advise...

bring up the oil nozzel size to produce heat that cycles with a steam system is the easiest fix for the boiler .. as an aside to that until you have it running properly you really wont have clear information on which to steer by...

the difference in fuel availability and price per BTU though can have plenty of bearing on a decision here the cost of oil is astronomical huge quantities of people are seriously considering leaving this year because they cannot see the way that they will be able to maintain their homes this winter.

the government energy "Gimmie" does little to nothing to defray the costs of energy here. the gimmick of reducing the carbon foot print by taxing us even more for less actual btu's per gallon and higher prices just doesn't work.

having said that , natural gas dual fuel like Steam head suggests might be a far better deal when you consider a long term picture.. that had Options ...

man i type slow )

you posted the picture of your boiler while i plinked away at the keys

and ten more while i did that )

Kelly Gilbert

Thanks for taking the time to type all those keys. I know--I used to be slow, too. Then I took a typing course at a community college and now I can type pretty fast. It was fun, too.

Robert O'Brien

Kelly

you have a Burnham V84 steam boiler with a tankless coil and a an aquabooster.You also have a mismatched burner from an EK2 System 2000.The insertion depth is not correct.Burnham requires 1 11/16" EK is 2 3/8".I'd recommend you get someone in to look at it.Work on tightening up the house,making sure the venting is sufficient,insulating the piping etc.
You could certainly put a conversion burner in that unit but the same problems will be there.

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Mitch_6

Need to straiten some of the photos.

Your boiler has a firing range down to 1.05 do you know the nozzle size it has know, there is usually a service tag on the boiler with the current size stated on it.

Since you have steam a heat loss will do you no good. You must measure the attached radiation and size to actual load.

Some of the near boiler piping did not appear correct the equalizer should drop strait below the water line before any changes, there is an almost horizontal take off on the lower header and the upper header is to a bull head tee.

I could not see the returns well.

You may find that with the boiler fully fired you get knocking and banging. Overly down fired the boiler may not make steam causing a high fuel bill. While you are not making full steam you may be masking other problems.

Get a Steam Pro in first Oil or Gas the wet side of a boiler knows no difference. Then you can work on the fuel from there. If history is a good indicator, gas will soon be close to oil in cost.

As a side note the pressure switch should be checked at the beginning of the year for plugging I have seen boilers less than a year old with a plugged pig tail.

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Kelly Gilbert

I posted some more pictures. If there is a service tag with the nozzle size on it, I wouldn't recognize it because I don't know what I'm looking for. If it's on there, I MUST HAVE gotten a picture of it! Thanks for the info, although I don't understand some of it.

( I tried to straighten out the pictures for you...I hope I did.)

If you do find the nozzle size, would you let me know what it is? Also, you said that if the burner is fully fired we might get some knocking and banging--do you mean inside the boiler--or the radiators? What would that mean?

Thanks, Kelly

Brad White_194

Good Advice

Not to exclude nor single-out, Robert's call on the burner hits a good target and Mitch's point on separating the solution between "steam side" and "combustion side" is particularly important. As JCA said, it is not the fuel necessarily. One can burn and waste gas with abandon if the steam side is not correct.

Maybe I missed it, but where are you located?

Your solution will likely hit on a number of fronts, starting with the steam-side then, rapidly, with the combustion side, getting the right burner for one thing.

A heat loss is a good thing to know, even though steam boilers are sized by the radiation. Should the radiation prove to be mis-matched and excessive against your improved insulated structure, a case might be made to lessen them strategically as a longer term plan. Back of your head for now, let's get the steam side and combustion side to play well with each other.

My $0.02

Brad

Kelly Gilbert

I am in Southeast Massachusetts. Thanks for the information. Although I am trying to follow along, I am obviously ignorant of some of the things you are saying.

If you could put it in layman's terms,

1.) As I understand it, I absolutely need the right burner. (my oil company put that in too, with the boiler when they installed it.) Not knowing anything, I assume they took advantage of our ignorance.

2.) What does Mitch's point "on separating the solution between "steam side" and "combustion side" really mean?

3.) What does your last paragraph actually mean? I don't understand. Do you mean that the boiler is too big for the house when you talk about sizing and radiation? If it is too big for a 1,200 sq. ft. house, is it okay to keep it and get it running better or should we get a burner that fits the size of the house?

Please forgive my ignorance. I am not familiar with your terminology.

Thanks for you help.

Kelly

Kelly Gilbert

I am in Southeastern Massachusetts. Thank you for your interest. As much as I try to follow along, I am obviously ignorant when it comes to completely understanding what you are saying. If you care to take the time to clarify, it would be so helpful:

1.) What does 'Mitch's point on separating the solution between "steam side" and "combustion side" is extremely important' actually mean?

2.) As I understand it, we absolutely have to get the right burner. (The oil company put that one in when they installed the six section boiler.) I didn't know it was the wrong burner, and I'm sure they knew that.

3.) In your last paragraph, do you mean that the boiler is the wrong size for the house? If not, forgive me. I don't understand what radiation means in this context. Do you think we should keep this boiler and work with it, or get one that fits the house?

Like I said, I am a novice here, just looking for information that I can understand and convey. Thanks so much again,

Kelly

Kelly Gilbert

I was told this burner is capable of having a conversion kit put in. (to gas) (Whether is is true or not, I don't know.) However, someone told us that it is better to get a new steam gas boiler, because the oil steam boiler only has one flame and the gas steam boilers have jets with more flames. Is this information wrong?

If we converted this burner to gas, wouldn't we still have the same problem of the boiler underfiring as we have right now? If the boiler actually is too big (a six section for a 1,200 square foot house) is it wise to keep it?

Any information would be so helpful.

Thank you,

Kelly

Mitch_6

Combustion and wet side are two different things.

The wet side is how the boiler is piped to the radiators.

A steam boiler is sized by measuring the radiators by syle and number of sections then you calculate an attached load.

The boiler is sized to handle the attached load since in steam you must fill the entire system with steam.

The combustion side is the burner, Oil, Gas, Coal or Electric it is simply how you burn the fuel to heat the water and make steam.

All steam boilers need to be piped the same way from the boiler to the radiator regardless of the fuel used.

It is possible you have a boiler sized to match the attached load but with to small a nozzle to actually make steam therefore running constantly.

Solution

1) Compair the radiators to the size of the boiler.
2) Make sure the boiler is piped properly on the wet side.
3) Make sure the burner is properly set up for the boiler.




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Kelly Gilbert

Wow...thanks very much.

lee_7

Is it the wrong burner for the boiler or did the oil company just use an EK burner box to help quiet burner and to put in fresh air. I did not look at all the pictures, they open really big on this computer for some reason. My old company would use EK covers all the time due to availability issues for us. We were the local EK dealer. We usually just painted to match boiler colors. The service tag they were referring to is usually hanging on pipe work near boiler or in some cases, the company does not use tags but puts the info on service paperwork left with you. So check the paperwork they left with you and see if it tells you nozzle size.

Leo_14

Kelly

On one of the pictures you posted the Burnham Tag said V84, if that is the case it is a 4 section not six. I would look further for a steam man. Your plumber called it a six section but not all plumbers are equal as not all oil guys are equal. At the top of the page is a tag "Resources" click it then click "find a professional". See if someone is there to help you out.

Leo

Kelly Gilbert

Yes, in my paperwork it says the Boiler Model No. is KV84. Is this a 4 section?

Thanks.

Kelly Gilbert

Thanks for the tips. In some service orders they left near the boiler, I found one that says, "85-80 (degree?) B Nozzle"
What is that? Is that the size?

Also, it says on another, "New Air Box." Is this what you mean? So this is not the burner?

Leo_14

KV84

The KV84 is a four section boiler.

Leo

Alan_11

your oil company

Lots of great responses,lots of people trying to help you out. Have you expressed your concerns to your oil company? I am sure they don't want to lose a good customer.It sounds like they replaced your boiler under warranty,probably adding an air box to quiet the burner noise and use outside air for combustion---both good things. They may have dropped the firing rate (nozzle) to try and lower your oil use ,but if lowered to much could cause the opposite effect. Most oil companies track your consumption using a K factor which is a factor of gallons used per elapsed degree days.they may have noticed a change in consumption but not know why. try working with them. The great thing about oil heat --especially with todays prices-- is that oil companies are not a monopoly,and most will bend over backwards to help you.

John_193

Educater yourself

some. There is a lot of great free info on this site that will help you understand your system. It will help you talk with a pro with some understanding of whats going on and whats needs to be done to resolve some of your issues. There are some excellent pros and there are some that can sell you BS and convince you that it taste good. The more educated you are about your system will help you weed out the bad ones.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/steam_problems.cfm

http://www.heatinghelp.com/heating-help.cfm?pageid=32

Brad White_195

Thanks, Mitch!

Hey Mitch, thanks for covering that for me. I am traveling this week, now in Houston then to Amsterdam and Denmark, so not always on-line. Glad you got my back!

Kelly, I am also in MA but am an engineer not an installer- There are a number of excellent steam practitioners around you or maybe up the road a-ways. You are in a good place actually.

Kelly Gilbert

Thanks to all of you...

so much for all the concern and advice. I have really learned a lot in short time and I am very grateful. I am going to continue to educate myself about my heating system and oil burner and try to find a steam professional who can help us out with our problems. (That's the tough part.)

Unfortunately, my oil company has never been consumer friendly--from the secretary to the repairmen; they all jump down my throat every time I ask(dumb?)questions rather than actually taking the time to listen to what I am saying and trying to solve the problem. This company is a family business that has been passed on from one generation to the next. Because they have never responded to our concerns is exactly why I came looking for help online, and I can't remember what link led me here...if I did, I would go back and thank them.

Thank you all and God bless.

Karen

aka: Kelly

Frenchie

New oil co.

Kelly- it's time for a new oil company. With natural gas and propane you are pretty much stuck. Oil you can change at will. Even though today's prices are not the oil company's fault, now is the time they darn well better be responsive to the customer. Go to another oil company and then find a good steam man to check over the steam side of the system. In a house that size, with a V84 boiler, you should be able to still economically heat it with oil fired steam.

Mitch_6

If it is .85 gallon and

the pump pressure for the burner is at 100 psi then you are most likely under fired. The minimum on the boilers label was 1.05.



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Leo_14

One of the nozzle sizes

The lower nozzle size in the Burnham specs is .85 @ 140 PSI.

Leo

Mitch_6

I do mostly gas so I did not know the spec in my head.

hence my assumptive pressuer.

I do not have a nozzle chart handy but if we do assume a .85 nozzle and 140 psi. (assuming they set the pressure right) Then the firing rate may be right.

If the tech set the boiler with the nozzle it came with and did not check the installation manual and set the pressure at the 100 psi standard or did not check and adjust accordingly if it came set off then we are back to low fire.

Either way someone has to make sure it is set right then go from there.

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Al Gregory_3

Is that a bronze circ on the aquabooster? It didnt look like it from the pic

Biged

what town in south east ma. are you?

Kelly Gilbert

Thanks. If you could recommend any steam professionals to me it would be an enormous help.

scott k_3

suggested steam man

Kelly,
Being a homeowner (located in northeast MA) and visiting this site to educate myself about my steam system. I would suggest the following
1) buy the book "We've got steam" from the online store of this site
2) Use the Find a Professional under Resources to find someone near you to look over the "wet" portion of your system after reading the book so you will understand their recommendations
3) Insulate all visible steam pipes in the basement
4) I might also recommend Norm Harvey at indoil.com (others on this site have his contact info-I found him here) He will be repairing an improperly installed system for me in a month or so

Also to give you hope I'm heating a 2000 sq ft 1870's era colonial for about 850 gal of oil and the boiler is not correctly installed, hence the need for Norm.

Good luck

lee_7

yes the air box is the yellow colored box covering burner