How should I feel about this?

Unknown

civility?

Tim, lets give this guy a break, Perhaps your feel threatened by a guy who has the audacity to venture into your field and then complain when he has to pay the piper.

I'm not one for censure. Before you cry hypocrisy I will admit that I have pissed off my share here at times. However, this guy had a legitimate question,.. he got some legitimate feedback.... end of story

We all have our different perspectives, and sarcasm and even put down humor have a place in getting things out on the table, but once the food turns poison what's the point of sharing a seat at that table?

Sometimes we need to vent, but shaming a HO does not serve this site's purpose. There will be others, (perhaps potential costumers) that may have questions but feel intimidated to ask, just because of the sort of thing you are engaging in.

Charlie from wmass

They do HB

Parts to your door dot com. they advertise here and have been mentiopned on the board.

Bob Bona_4

no offense

Scott, but Tim was offering his opinion as a pointed question, as was asked for by the OP. The only shaming I see going on is the OP mistakenly throwing the tech's under the bus for just doing their job and then some at 1 am in the morning.

If anything, calling Tim out is embarrasing.

Let's leave the policing of the site to the owner who does a pretty good job of it.

burnerman_2

good point scott

yes he had a question and we may have jumped on hard if we were the home owner and wondered where to ask a question here is the place to go i have even sent a few here so lets give our answers but try and be fair by the way here in penna. if my buddy goes out at nite $86.00 service call 1st hour no drive time and if we order a part the sec trip is most time free we try to make a buck on the parts but there are times the company loses money why? most are oil customers keep them happy boss's motto royboy

Mitch_6

Have to call you on this

I do not keep manuals in my shop and defiantly not on the truck for "ALL" the boilers and other equipment I work on.

The manufacture states to leave the manuals in a conspicuous place for future reference. Even the same make and model can change by series. With the exception of service bulletins and other tech support reference material after the product was installed. The manual on site is the best place to start.

Mitch S.

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Mitch_6

my prior post meant for Scott not Darell

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Mitch_6

To the call itself

Nice for the tech's to heat up some water for the morning. I myself am not a fan for bypassing any control except for testing.

When I do a repair on a complex piece of equipment ( I work on Ultras not Veisman but the concept is the same) I often test to a point of obsession ye it worked 19 times why did it kick out on the 20th. Best to take your time do it right the first time than come back again for free to an angry customer.

As to limits if it is like the Ultra the High limit switch will activate during lack of flow since the boiler goes ballistic (poor choice of words) and will over heat due to lack of flow you can have all the water you need in the system if it is not flowing you will over heat. On systems like the Ultra one pump runs flow for the DHW and one for Heat. If you are not paying attention you may think you have a bad sensor when it is actually a bad pump or restriction on part of the system not the whole. To easy to make a mistake best to take you time.

Mitch S.

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J.C.A._3

Amen Mitch !

N.M. JCA

Unknown

Apologies to Tim if my tone came off too judgmental.

OP- is this short for offending post?

Why is it off limits for me to question the boundaries of our discussion? I'm not trying to play cop, just expressing my concerns. Sorry if this was too presumptuous.

Opinion as pointed question is not my problem, I just think there is too much venom here for a guy who just wanted to balance his feelings against a larger community of people in the field.

Timco

OP stands for original poster. I get called out of my area all the time, and charge accordingly if they want it done by me rather than someone who is closer. I only asked this because he was so far away and likely on business if his family was home. Venom would be ripping him for installing his own equip, shaming the techs for refering to the manual (which I ALWAYS do unless it is really straight forward) and complaining about the rest. I just was curious if he is paid for travel, which is a complaint here I believe, but agree arrogance can leak out when we are not being careful. I really did not mean to shame anyone, but was curious if the shoe fit the other foot as well.

Tim

Bob Bona_4

I love this site

and I love all you guys that come here to take the time to share stuff. I don't know how I would do business w/o it. Been coming here almost 9 years, at least 3 times a day, seen a lot of stuff go down. Have hung w/ a bunch of regulars and partied w/ The Man himself more than once.. I can see why Dan keeps his hair short these days..saves on the "Mennen for Men"

Dan has always said the place is self policing, and I take that to mean as all of us as peers pretty much know where to draw the line when it comes to inflammatory posts and the like. Someone gets too jacked up, and Dan'll step in, and that is the end of it.

So, as peers, with the exception of Brad White, who is in a whole other dimension (j/k Brad) I find it MORE offensive when someone (not so much singling out you Scott, I have seen it before w/ other people) decides to "moderate" other peoples responses to a query. Most of the time, I bite my "typing fingers" but this particular topic is especially sensitive to me. The OP is judging what turned out to be a successful outcome by second guessing what, to me, sounds like a reasonable and typical service call. He was asking for opinions and I didn't see "only positive ones, please". If one doesn't want the bad w/ the good, don't stick yer neck out.

Nothing gets under my skin more than a client who arbitrarily decides after successful and dedicated service (in this case beyond the call of duty) that it wasn't worth the bill. The whorehouse syndrome, buyers regret, call it what you will. There were people standing by that night in case someone had an emergency. I think most people have better things to do, even when they are paid (I hope here).

For me, it's not about the money so much, it's just a little appreciation for the services we do, the extra effort we put into out jobs to make people comfortable and safe. And, recognition that our lives and earnings are just as important as the people we serve.

Bob Bona_4

Thank you

Mitch for adding the manual directions.. I forgot to add that. They are in big words on the packet pointing that out. They are meant to be used for reference, not for sticking in some drawer never to see the light of day again.

Craig R Bergman

Three ring binders

We put ALL manuals in a binder and clearly label it...

"MANUALS, KEEP WITH UNIT."

If only it were so...

Bergy

Unknown

Well received bob.

As for Policing, a recent 70+entry post was deleted by our gracious host from this site forever, saw this once before with regard to a specific theoretical equipment hack, from my observations it's a fairly unique occurrence.

There is a sound bite concept in circulation these days that I rather like. It's called Taking Ownership. People don't seek to effect something that they don't feel personally invested in. Schools that seek capitol improvement face this. Childless fixed income residence become pitted against what should be, by all rites be a focal point of their communities, They have no "ownership". The institution it's perceived as a blood sucker instead of incubator.

A healthy community needs members who have a stake in it's future. It's remarkable how well that works here, most of the time.

Giving Howie the trouncing that he may deserve, helps air legitimate frustrations, But it does little to serve the useful purpose that this site serves for non professionals. Remember the pro-press thread. What good did that serve? that event was tragic in that it chased manufactures from the site. Do we want to chase home owners away too.

Maybe it's a bit presumptuous of a newcomer like my self to be "taking ownership" this way, sorry if I'm overstepping. To be clear I like it when things get edgy here, but I think newcomers deserve a bit more empathy. Fellow mechanics, have you not known the frustration of having to "bring her to the man". Howie didn't stiff anybody he just wanted to know how to feel, I guess you guys want him to feel like a jerk.

Perhaps recent events put me in the same company, and thats why I'm sticking up for him.

Bob Bona_4

Had

to smile at the last line, because I admit a recent event in particular, involving similar circumstances, left me working for free. And vowing to never let it happen again

Leo G_101

Scott

in my area, we are havinng a heck of the time with mod/cons. seems our gas is dirty, but no for sure results yet. So yes, six month cleaning schedule is becoming more of the norm then 12 month.

Some of the debris found inside is magnectic. Kinda makes me wonder about the three failures I attended last winter, oldest unit was 5 yrs, youngest 3 years. All had leaking heat exchangers.

Hard to not gently push new clients back towards the old technology, or at least give them a price and a heads up, when we, the installers are the first in the target sights of irate customers!

Leo G

Heather_5

Outside Perspective

I understand how it feels to have your competency or honesty challenged by those you're offering a service to, but I also understand how it feels to be the consumer who is left in the dark, whether due to lack of knowledge or lack of presence.

As a consumer, it is necessary to refer to the professionals quite often, but it is sometimes very hard to acquire any sense of understanding about jobs done or tasks performed. I have a father who has taught me a great deal about automobiles and very rarely have to take my vehicle to a mechanic. Unfortuantely, there are occasions when my knowledge comes up short. I have found few mechanics who will explain their diagnosis or what corrective actions they want to take to fix the car. The few mechanics who have are the ones who get my business.

I assume that Howie was "left in the dark" due to being out of town. It sounds like he may have been told second-hand what work was done. Like any game of telephone, there's a good chance something was lost in translation.

It's hard to "put yourself in their shoes" when you're in the position of the "accused" and I wouldn't expect anybody to sympathize when they're bread and butter is being challenged, however indirectly. But I think Howie was trying to acquire knowledge he may have had trouble receiving from the company who performed the work.

Additionally, he may have come to "strangers" to avoid offending or damaging a relationship with the company who performed the work, just in case he was wrong or ignorant in his assumptions.

I work with contractors and wholesalers all day, and I know how hard both parties work to make sure their customer is satisfied. And I also realize how rare it is for a customer to be 100% satisfied with what they receive. I don't envy the treatment contractors receive, and I respect their willingness to "keep on trucking" when they're presented with confrontation or accusations from suspicious customers. I just think a bit of understanding should be given on both sides of the argument.

I work in this business, I spend my spare time at work on this site and manufacturer sites doing my best to learn how these things work. I'm still a greenhorn. I still have a hard time understanding what a customer wants, what a system does, etc. This is a complex, challenging, exhausting field, and it's way too broad, with way too many options for the average consumer to ever feel confident in what they're receiving if they aren't given the tools to acquire the knowledge.

I'm not implying it's the contractor's responsibility, by any means...but you work in this business. You know what COB is, you know what labor is worth, you know how to troubleshoot, how to fix, how to balance pricing. We're clueless.

Please keep that in mind. It's like trying to teach a 5 year old multiplication. He'll get it, but you have to start with the basics first...and you must have patience.

Timco

When a HO asks how the part I replaced works, I do my best to explain it. I always tell the cust what I intend to replace, why, and how the bad part affects the operation of the unit. I almost always get a blank look followed by " Oh, I see...well, if it needs it..." even after I just explained how the part works and why it is needed. I admire a HO's interest in knowing what is being replaced, but I have needed to tell a couple people I don't have time to teach them how a boiler or furnace works. Sometimes you just need to trust the pro.

Tim

Bob Sweet

Good point Tim

At a certain point it comes down to a trust between both the customer and the contractor. Some people have a pre conception before they ever make the call for service, either they trust who they are calling (thats where repeat customers are a blessing) or they have misgivings, whether it's because of a past exp. or what they have heard. Pre conceptions are a major part of expectations.

I try to always educ. and inform people to the reasons why I'm proposing to do the job at hand, thats all I can do either trust what I'm saying or get another opinion. Don't mean to be condesending or rude, I'm not out to pull the wool over anyboby's eyes. I completely understand why people are mistrusting of contractors lord knows there is a whole slew of reasons to do so.


As a contractor I am here to offer a service of which I believe is worthy of what I charge. Secondly I am offering that service to keep my business a business. Bottom line it is a business, and business is about making a profit.

I can not do what I do without customers. They are a my business without them it's over. However I can only make suggetions based on what I feel is in OUR best interest, if thats not enough so be it. A business needs to make a profit to stay around without that why be in business.

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Big Will

Saftey and Rolls-Royce

If the company was in any way unclear about charges for mileage that's a problem. As a owner I know that being upfront about costs is very upsetting to a customer and for me. That said the fact that the company came out that late at night is amazing. I won't do that for any but my best customers. A customer that has installed their own equipment is most definitely not on that list. That is one of the benefits of having a contractor install a piece of equipment instead of saving a buck. I warranty my installs for three years and after three years you are still a priority customer. You saved a buck now you pay a buck.

On the order of testing and time spent on the repair. The high limit safety is one of the things that keeps your home intact and your family alive. It can not be tested to long or too many times. With controls that involve customer safety I will not walk away without at least five full cycles. We are talking about something that is as important as the seat belt in your car.

Finally I can not think of a more sophisticated boiler than the vito 200 its the top of the line most advanced thing out there. Not only did you install it yourself now you are upset about maintenance. If a man buys a Rolls-Royce he can't complain about the cost of the brake pads.


A note about drive time. The cost of outfitting the truck was mentioned earlier in the thread. Stop and think about the costs with a service truck and the man who runs it. The service tech has to be extremely reliable well trained and smart. This means expensive. In my area about 50 an hour. now about the truck. It costs 50 grand, 60 grand in parts, 20 grand in tools, gets 10 miles to the gallon wears out in six years because it runs about thirty thousand miles a year. Now put that man in the truck at twelve thirty at night and send him to your house to fix a boiler that the company made no money on. My bill would have been about $1500

I really think that people don't realize the cost of business. I don't want to beat you up about it but, I think you will find that contractors are not rich men. I for one hate what I have to charge some times. Its buisness.

heatboy

Not to split hairs.......

...... but after re-reading the original post, there is a mistake. The fixed high limit on the Vitodens is a switch, NOT a sensor. The high limit will not give a fault to the Comfortrol. It will just open and stop the boiler. If the batteries in the controller are weak, the display will be lost because the limit is in series with the rest of the switches. The boiler sensor, on the other hand, will show a fault on the control since it doesn't interupt power, as the high limit does.

I just want to clear that up so other contractors don't get confused when servicing this equipment.

hb

Unknown

splitting hairs

My use of the term sensor was incorrect, a sensor provides an output (variable resistance etc.) A high limit disconnect responds to a fixed setting. Thanks for clarifying the nomenclature.

Cleaned a 03 vito combi on sunday. Hit it with pre-diluted stellar solutions, credit card in the groove, green scotch brite, trigger spray bottle rinse, even some compressed air down the bottom to stir up the silt.

Noticed that this 03 model has duel high limits, a nice redundancy feature. If Howie was clever had an 03 model (assuming he communicates very well with his wife) perhaps aided by a digital camera, he might have been able to instruct her to bypass the faulty high limit and use the remaining functioning one.( I'm not advocating this sort of thing, just mentioning it hypothetically.)

Why do you think Viessmann dropped this redundancy feature? I guess it doubled the chances of a nuisance shut down from a faulty part, but it would also double the safety margin, and provide a means to get things running (no jumpers) without a new part on hand.

The point I was making (when I misused the term sensor) is that (as far as I know) it's not standard procedure to test the safety function of a new high limit. What the tech was testing (at Howie's) was guarding against the possibility of a callback from a high limit that cuts out to at too low of a temperature. just splitting hairs I guess.

jp_2

switch = sensor

in machine control(boiler controls) I would qualify a switch as a sensor. after all the switch will sense a problem.

Unknown

Switch vs. Sensor

A switch is a sensor with 0 sensitivity, I think by definition a sensor has a variable output. but I'm not sure about this. Sometimes common usage is more important than a wiki definition. What's the general consensus is a switch a sensor or not ?

Bruce Stevens_2

I would call a High Limit

a switching sensor after it senses on over limit condition it switches the power off. Aquastats as they turn power on and off when they sense a temperature change. Some sensors do not switch and some switches do not sense.

jp_2

15 yrs in

industrial machine controls and I say they can be the same.

how many here on the Wall set up Boilers to boil water?

yet water heaters aren't allowed to heat a room?

Bob Sweet

A limit imo

is a switch, it's only purpose is to turn off or on. A sensor has the ability to show an error code whether it's by lock out or time delay it has limited intelligence, a limit to me is dumb.



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jp_2

ever hear of a

non contact limit switch? many,many times you are only interested in a yes or no, or on/off situation.
I think you are only focusing on a temperature device here?

also the error code you mention is really not part of a sensor but the system that is monitoring the sensor. an RTD can not give you error codes.

heatboy

The Combi......

...... has some extra stuff the others don't Scott. There is a flow switch that the 6-24 / 8-32 don't have. Could that be the redundancy you are referring to? There are also, if I remember, two additional sensors on the combi. As far as I remember, on the smaller ones, there hasn't been a double fixed high limit. With the low pressure switch set to cut out at 12 PSI, I usually (read always) set the PRV to maintain 16 to 18 PSI.

Unknown

These are high limits wired in series. I think it's unique to this older machine.

Can you clarify what you were saying about the comfortrol display and the batteries. It's my understanding that the boiler will run even if the display/interface is dead, you just can't change anything and maybe the sun/moon settings go to 68deg default. I had one with a bad display and this is what I remember.

Just tested my own boiler, breaking continuity with the high limit kicks the boiler immediately into purge mode and lockout fault. Fault was specific: fixed high limit. No interruption in display function.

Bob Sweet

Good point

"also the error code you mention is really not part of a sensor but the system that is monitoring the sensor. an RTD can not give you error codes."

Your right it's not the device but the system.







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jp_2

vagueness of english

thats the problem with english, we all often use words with slightly different to totally different meanings throughout different industries. depends on how bad you want to knit pic