How should I feel about this?

Tom Hopkins

Are you being serious?

Tom Hopkins

Vitodens 200 high-limit sensor failure

I was away on business when this happened, and asked my wife to call the outfit that was very helpful and professional with a post-install problem (but they did not do the install, I did).

There was a code indicating a high-limit sensor failure, and the boiler was not firing to provide hot water. They came at night so my family and guests would have hot water in the morning, so it was time and a half. 2.5 hours including an hour of travel time. Then again on the second morning (they didn't have time to install the part on the day after) 2.5 hours to install the part, including an hour of travel time.

My wife had to provide the manual to the techs both times (different guys). They both seemed "new" to the boiler. The second guy hung around after installing the part apparently he said to test the high-limit switch (by waiting until the DHW came up to temp). I don't see how this tests the high-limit sensor.

So, I think I should be unhappy about this. Seems like an awful lot for a high-limit sensor where the boiler tells you what's wrong with the code. (2.5 hours at time and a half, and 2.5 hours at regular time). I didn't think I'd incur this kind of cost within the first two years of operation. If I'd been around I probably would have been able to diagnose this myself, but a little hard to do with my wife reading the manual in the middle of the night.

I think these guys lost me as a customer, at the very least because paying for travel time seems insane - I think they may have moved since I first used them, and I know there are knowledgeable folks nearby.

My apologies if I violated any forum rules. I made sure not to mention money, but I couldn't find a "forum rules" to check.

Any opinions?

bob young

bad contractors

so you did not like the price, you did not like how they did the job & you did not like to pay for their time. report them to the better business board as unscrupulous contractors. ......but at least it worked. did they warranty the job ? did you get a signed invoice to take to court when you sue them ? i hate people like that ....first they fix your problem & then they want your money. such nerve.

eluv8

training techs

Unfortunately techs can not know how to fix every boiler make out there, many are learning on the job and dont have or choose not to study on their own time boilers they do not install or service regularly.
They did fix the boiler, and once they said it was fixed they didnt have to come back. They explained how they were going to charge, it sounds like up front. Unfortunatly it sounds like you got charged to help fund their training program. I often suggest to homeowners that they think of contractors in advance and write their names and numbers down, or at least know somebody "in the know" they trust for a referal and with that there still is no guarantee. Things could have been much worse.

Bob Sweet

Howie

May I ask how you attained this boiler in the first place?

Using the manuf. manual to troubleshoot a piece of equip. is not a sign of incompetence. There are a lot of techs out there that this boiler is "new" too, its a high end piece of equip. Error codes are not fail safe and somewhat elusive to the origin. Sticking around to make sure the equip. works after the repair is good practice.

YOU purchased the boiler and it broke down and you were not there to repair it so someone else did.You did call them out after hours (did they let you know what the after hour rates would be $$ ?) if not they should have, you could have asked what it would cost.


As a business owner, not sure why you assume I should absorb the cost of travel and not pass it on to you, the customer.


Charging you for the after hours charge not repairing it AND charging you for the actual repair, IMO you have a legit complaint. Doesn't seem fair to me.




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Darrell

Just a few thoughts from the other side of the issue:

1) The days of having one generic control or part that will fix any number of brands and units is gone. The truck that would carry all of the OEM parts for all of the boilers out there would be a tractor trailer. And yes, you have to use OEM parts...that probably aren't going to be available after hours.

2) Most of the newer boilers, especially the "higher zoot" ones have very specific operating values for each component and very specific troubleshooting guidelines. The good service man will always refer to the instructions when going through his discovery. The Typical owner has thrown them away or the installer kept them...so he'll either have to bring his own, or dial it up online with his PDA.

3) Many of the error codes give a single line diagnosis...many of them are wrong or leave out a great deal of informatiion that does matter. How many times I've simply taken the error code's word for the problem...replaced the indicated part, and wound up owning a smoked 200 dollar part because something else had shorted out...or the customer's buddy along with "Bud" and "Wiser" had preceded me on site...

4) Man Hours are the most expensive thing on almost any call now...and driving time, especially for a good service man...counts.

5) A good service man never leaves a job without checking all of the peripheral controls and making sure they all work...or he'll be right back and the customer will definitely be grumpy the second time...and so will his boss. Go backs are expensive.

6) It is difficult to give hard prices up front in service work...too many variables. Service men have to bill for every minute invested in a job...just like any other technical profession.

7) There is often a great deal of difference between an installer and a service man. Being good at one does not mean expertise at the other.

8) Don't know how all that fits into your scenario...but some of it might help explain what happened. I guess the bottom line is it did get fixed when you couldn't...and that is worth paying for...even if you could have done it faster, better, cheaper.

9) Could they have done it differently...seems like there was room for improvement on their part, but, it's easy for us to "monday morning quarterback" from here.

10) Start now interviewing for and establishing a relationship with a competent serviceman...and then let him take care of "his" equipment in your basement.

11) One last thought...used to be a boiler would go for a year or two or even more without any service or care whatsoever...not smart...but it would do it. The newer boilers are not so. I tell my customers that the older, simpler boilers have a manufacture mandated service cycle of twelve months...and if they have me back every year they can rest pretty esay that they won't have problems during the year outside of component failures that nobody can predict. The newer, more sophisticated boilers and equipment may/will require a shorter service cycle...probably six months...to achieve worry free operation. Combustion efficiency, (how much you burn), does not necessarily equate to operational economy, (what it costs per year to own).



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burnerman_2

my thought

another post says about online boiler purchases well until a tech arrives he cannot fix the problem then it can be a tripped breaker the list goes on but we can not carry every part known to man if we had installed the unit we would have had replacement parts on our truck truth is everyone wants to save a buck go to the doctor wait an hour even if you know whats wrong with you you pay full price and if they are wrong you go back and pay again so to enjoy the comforts pay up and bite the bullet. royboy

Bob Bona_4

I think

you got fast and good service.

Did you expect the techs to appear at your door for free?

They should be commended for using any and all resources available to verify the problem, even if it means asking for the paper work for YOUR boiler, which should have been at the ready by the boiler. Who knows it all?
I bet you they felt a little foolish inside asking, but their goal was to fix a problem for you. Does that make them bad? Or not worthy?

What's wrong w/ making sure by the book? They may have done a similar call before on other equipment, one- the V200 has not been out that long, and two-checking the manual for any idiosyncrasies or upstream/downstream components for cascading failure is the sign of a professional approach.

Speaking of, what if they took your word on the phone that "all there was was a limit failure" and got the part (btw, that takes time too), and showed up and found that there was more to the story. Sort of like insisting to the Dr. on the phone you need a scrip because you are sure you had a mild heart attack. What's he gonna say?

Professionals have a lot more going on in their heads concerning the issues at hand. Don't take them at face value. Yeah, the high limit failed, but is there more?, And why?..

A high limit failure is a big deal for heating pros'. What to follow can or will be catastrophic conseqenses.

Keep the manuals by the boiler like you're supposed to. You have one of the rarer boilers out there. Make it easier for the service people next time.

It's too bad your Viessmann broke, but it did, it was fixed in what I would say a reasonable manner, so pay them.

Sheesh.

ScottMP

So Howie

What if the tech Did'nt stay around to confirm the operation of the limit. What if he left ( to save you money since this is what your thread is really all about ) and the limit failed and the boiler relief blew and flooded your basement, or worse !! I can see the thread now " These idiots ruined my house ".

Checking the operation of equipment installed is a practie I tell ALL my techs to do. Its theright thing to do.

You say they lost you as a customer. You bought the boiler and installed it and would'nt have called them if you where home. I would argue that .. they never had you as a customer.

Scott

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Leo_10

12 years

I have been working for oil companies for 12 years and working with three different companies. In that time I have worked on three Viessman boilers. My point they aren't real common around here. So, if you search far and wide to get one make sure you find someone who will service it when the time comes. The first one I encountered was installed by a plumber who did nice work but didn't do oil. He told the owner to have the oil company come and fire it off. It was the first time I ever saw a Viessman Chassis burner. Nice equipment but we called the rep out because it was very different from what we already had. Simple once shown but my point, people need some time with these things to understand them.

As far as travel pay who pays for the tech to come out after hours?

Leo

Mitch_6

I often go to the manual

of even boilers I have installed. Better to read first than guess.

They went out for you on off hours to get heat and hot water up. They did not do the install are they to go out for free!

Mitch S.

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Tom Hopkins

OK, I give...

Everyone, remember I was 2000 miles away when all this happened. It makes it a little harder to accept that way.

1) I was asking about travel time. It sounds like that is normally charged, and I should just make sure I know what's involved ahead of time. It was not a surprise charge, and that's not what I'm upset about.

2) The first charge of 2.5 hours - that's also fine. The tech stayed around at 1am with the sensor jumped to produce hot water for the household. He didn't have to do that.

3) The second tech that came - another 2.5 hours - that seemed excessive to me. In my understanding - please you all tell me if I'm wrong - the high limit sensor prevents the boiler from overheating if it springs a leak. You will never reach the high limit unless you empty at least the upper part of the boiler of water. How can this be tested? This is the part I don't understand. Waiting for the DHW to come all the way up to temperature is not a way to test this sensor. The tech could also have lowered the DHW target to make sure the boiler shut off. That tests the DHW sensor, right?

Perhaps I was just spoiled by my first experience with this company, where the tech who came out knew the boiler really well. I expected the same this time, and thought that's what I'd be paying for. Live and learn. Next time I'll ask who's coming.

As far as procuring and installing the boiler, I understand you'd all prefer I paid someone to do all that - but it's a good install, and it's been verified by experienced Viessmann technicians. As far as me being their customer - they were great the first time they came after the install, and made me feel like their customer, even though they did not do the install. I hope you all make your customers feel this way, even if you didn't do the install.

Mad Dog_2

Yep, I think you are unrealistic and off base

Sounds like you got pretty good service. You are lucky you got anyone to work on it that didn't service it. The Viessmann is hi-tech system...I guess you shouldn't go away anymore.....you're the only one that really knows who to fix it right, huh? Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Right on Bob

Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

You should be an expert witness in court

Very powerful summation! Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

It sounds like you are confused..............................

A high limit is a max temperature limit and YES that is the PROPER way to test it. You want a real life, real time test, NOT a shortcut like lower the limit to see if it works. THAT is not the true operating temp! A LOW Water cutoff is what shuts down the boiler if there is a leak. Pretty scary that YOU, the man who installed this does not know the difference. You should be humbled, NOT questioning the company. Mad Dog

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Paul Fredricks_6

My guess is that running it up to temp didn't take 2.5 hours. I was just the last thing he did. As stated above, this is a very new piece of equipment and very few are trained on it. I'm sure the tech double and triple checked everything they did, as well they should have.

Bob Bona_4

ah.

#2. They went out on a limb bypassing "the high limit sensor" (which turns out to not be-in a minute) to get your hot water up for use in the am. For you. They could have just left once the "high limit sensor" was determined to be bad and told your wife tough noogies, see ya when we get the part. No, they manned the boiler for safety only to get some hot water for you to use in the morning. At 1 am. I would love to see an encounter w/ you and the dedicated tech who could have been sleeping instead.

I think you have components wrong. Which kind of invalidates any opinion you have of what happened in your absentia. Sounds like the flow switch was bad. You had an ailing boiler, where everything is now suspect. The tech babysat it once for the night to get you a shot at a shower in the morn. Sure, you could cheat out the DHW limit by lowering it, but once you have tampered w/ a setting that was there, and left it's set point temporarily, are you 100% positive that the former set point will work? The tech tested things that are set for normal use.

Again, sounds like the tech's had YOUR best interest in mind. They trusted you would compensate them for their interest. You are breaking the trust.

Tom Hopkins

Sorry to say...

You are wrong about this. The high-limit sensor cuts the boiler off at over 100C (not sure of the exact temp, but could be 110C - 120C). It is a safety sensor that will work if your low water safety cut off fails, or if you don't have one installed. It is not the DHW sensor. The Viessmann has a self-test built in for the high-limit sensor, and that's why the boiler would not fire.

Tom Hopkins

I must be wrong...

Not. I can read. It was the high-limit sensor, not the flow sensor.

If you read what I wrote, you would know that I was happy that the tech babysat the boiler while the DHW came up to temp.

It was after the replacement of the sensor that I did not understand. How about if you explain that to me? The boiler temp high-limit sensor doesn't do anything when the DHW comes up or shuts off.

Bob Bona_4

You

have to test it to make sure the boiler doesn't overheat.

The boiler is supposed to run up to the high limit on a DHW call.

Al Letellier_21

complaiint about the bill

One thing I didn't read in all the posts...or did I miss it. Did you call the company and discuss the charges? Did you give them an opportunity to defend themselves or make any adjustments, if warranted? I agree with Mad Dog that is sounds like you got good service and you should be grateful they did respond seeing that they didn't provide or install the unit. IF you didn't speak to them, you should. Go and see the service manager and discuss it with him....it's easier to keep your cool when you are face to face/it's too easier to get mad and hang up with a phone !!

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ScottMP

Howie

Lets all take deep breath and see if this can be cleared up.

As I see it, the high limit sensor shuts the boiler off whne it reaches its set point (high limit) or is this the redundant limit that shuts off the boiler if it goes Past its high limit set point ??

This does not shut the boiler off if it springs a leak as youmentioend earlyer. Thats why guys started asking you about low water sensor.

Either or, a tech checking to make sure it is working is the correct procedure. Your hot water is produced with an indirect tank correct ? If so then the boiler goes to high limit whne making domestic hot water and testing the high limit is the correct thing to do .

Does this sound right ??

You've hit a nerve ( if you did't notice ). Guys who go out of there way to help someone and then get questioned ... REALLY get P.O. !!

Scott

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Mitch_4

Depends on the control strategy

Some boiler will run to the high limit as an operating control. On Higher sophisticated ones, the high limit may be a back up to water sensor (modulating units) i cannot speak for a Vito as I am not trained or use the Viessman line (95% FA in my high humidity area so boiler systems are rare)

But I will say this: The only proper way to test it is to watch the operation. When a safety switch trips or fails replacing it is easy..but more importantly, WHY did it trip? Observation is the only way, and NO SHORTCUTS!! Something caused the safety to fail, and observing it in normal operating conditions is the only way..maybe the pump controller stops causing a spike in heat? maybe the sensor fails causing it to stay on high fire..WHY WHY WHY? that MUST be determined anytime a safety fails. Sometimes testing may only be a few minutes..sometimes hours. But without determining why, it will likely happen again. It may even have been a fluke occurence. Some of these switches are made by the million, and perfection is impossible, but again, you MUST check. The techs were A1 experts, the first babysat the unit in the middle of the night when he bypassed the safety to get you hot water instead of trusting and leaving it. The second to read the litterature, and observe.

I have been to a manufacturers (there is one nearby) and they have a WALL of manuals for teh products they make / made. Unless you are a dealer, and even then, most of us do not carry the manuals.. I keep contact numbers and call tech support if they are not onthe site.

You got a good deal in my opinion..


Mitch

bob young

do-it-yourselfers

Just a know it all do-it-yourselfer that can't stand the fact that he had to pay the professional rate for once in his life. it is arrogance like that that creates boiler explosions. they read a book & think they know it all. a little bit of knowlege can be a dangerous thing.

Unknown

In all fairness, what you are testing by bringing the boiler up to DHW production temps is that the high limit does not activate prematurely, this is of course prudent, and would not take all that long, (probably be faster to use manual override test switch though).

Not sure how you would test that this the device actually shuts off at high limit, except for putting it in some 190 deg water before installing it, I don't think too many of us are this thorough.

A good Viessmann Tech should bring his own literature, no big deal to ask for it but what if the owners had misplaced it? If you know your going on a Vitodens service call bring the supporting literature if you have it, If you don't this might indicate a lack of experience with the equipment, and I could understand a HO feeling a bit resentfull for paying previaling wage for an inexperienced tech.

As far as 6 month service intervals, I think thats ridiculous, It bad enough how much work a thorough mod con passivating cleaning involves, if a 6 month service interval comes with high efficiency, It certainly undermines the economic benefits for the end user. I don't even think they do that in Germany the most regulated place on earth.

Tom Hopkins

regarding arrogance...

Check the mirror, buddy.

DanHolohan

Gentlemen,

The Wall works best when we don't insult each other.

Darrell

Not looking for a fight....

But, I see direct spark ignition equipment with flame prover rods failing to ignite before the 12 month service cycle very frequently. I'd guess that a double digit percentge of my customers that have higher efficiency boilers, particularly with direct spark ignition and flame rods, are experiencing nuisance lockouts prior to twelve months. These are not new equipment...we're getting into the five and ten year age...and so far, nobody has come up with self-cleaning direct spark igition/flame rods. Maybe it's our gas and the sulphur precipitates onto the ignition and rod...maybe it's dust in the combustion air...maybe it's the family cat...but lockouts do happen before twelve months. I think it is totally fair to give my customers this information, so, at the very least they are not surprised, and may choose to have me back at the six month mark for a quick clean/check.

On another note...most customers are choosing, (or being forced, to have their contractor install higher efficiency equipment, as they should. However, most installers are leading them to believe that the new equipment is trouble free, nearly maintenance free, cheap to operate, long lasting and easy to fix if it does break. This is not correct and installers should be more honest/informed with their customers instead of being afraid of the truth and price. Anything more complex is going to have more maintenance concerns, a shorter service cycle, cost more to operate because of the level of techical service required, have a shorter service life, and cost more to fix...and probably be more efficient in combustion.

It seems that the original poster was under the impression that his equipment should not have cost him a service call inside of two years. Guess what? Components fail. And the newer boilers have more components. Would a comprehensive check by a compentent sercvice tech have prevented this call...probably not...it sounds like a component failure. Should he have had a competent servcice tech look at it t least yearly anyway? Yes...and if he read all of the instructions while doing his own install he knows that V says so. Most manufactures also void any warranty if their equipment is not installed by licensed, trained technicians.


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Rich Kontny_3

Was this something?

Howie,

Was this someting you would have fixed if you were at home? Sounds like you are more angry with the fact you were 2000 miles away then with the service charges. Best way to respond if you are unhappy is not to use this service company again.

They did however provide you service and results. Not a Federal case, pay he bill and move on!Use lessons learned the next time!

jackchips_2

Not taking sides,

it seems Howie asked a question "any opinions" about his situation and a simple "you are wrong based on what you've written" would have sufficed.

Some of us took him to task without any idea of his qualifications and he reacted in kind.

My 2cents. The company treated you fairly and if you disagree hire someone else. I would also suggest you get someone lined up before you go away again.

Jack

Weezbo

it is difficult to untrain a service tech...

the fact that the guys hung in there at one in the morning
seems to indicate that.

the fact that they referred to the manual seems to indicate that also.

sometimes what is readily apparent to one may not be in another's repertoire as is indicated by the replies you have gotten..

some companies have a minimum time to respond to some problems as the diagnosis may not be quite so superficial as one might hope ...

some problems are Caused by the Strategy originally piped into or wired into a system and while one would hope that anyone installing a quality piece of equipment had carefully considered the best ways and means such is not always the case...meaning someone may have a JOJO boiler say and yet it may be lashed into a horrible mess. with no means to walk up ,look at the gages ,check the parameters ,test the details and see on first perusal the exact Cause of the problem..

so quite often techs will take time to extract something from the IO that might offer some clue across a variety of causes that produce the results they find...

should the cause be a relife valve there are quite a few reasons How that can come to pass..

my experiential skill set usually will guide me to refrain from some work as the two cent o ring hardly seems to justify the labour cost. the same sort of thing when a "Sensor" or a sheetrock screw has found its way into the equation that is inadvertently not considered till the last..when suddenly a light comes on in another room...

my thought is go with it ...give God the Glory and move on..

Tom Hopkins

Waaa!


I feel Howie put himself at the mercy of a professional contractor when he called for service. It doesn't sound as if they took advantage of him; the cost of doing business has gone up a lot lately for contractors. Material costs have skyrocketed in the past 2 years, fuel costs have doubled in 24 months, insurance rates have increased also, I get the feeling most contractors don't really know what it costs to run their business anymore.
I really don’t think he was taken advantage of here, but of course we cannot discuss pricing.
I think Howie is frustrated because he had to pay for the repair and could not do it himself.
If you cannot fix your own car and have to bring it to a mechanic what happens? You have to pay the freight.
If your house needs a roof but you are afraid of ladders, what choice do you have? You have to pay the freight.
If nothing else, he now knows the true value of his ability to install hi own heating system.
He truly should feel lucky that someone would agree to work on such a complicated piece of equipment that was installed by the homeowner. I might shy away from that call myself.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

How should you feel?

Not sure how 'you' should feel about a service tech who's willing to leave the comfort of home & family to come to your aid, but I'd sure be grateful.

Hi-eff equipment changes today seem to occur faster than even Bill Gates & his team of twisted designers could dream up. Today's techs are hard pressed to maintain the pace that's being run in that regard. Needing the book to run a diagnostic check is no sin and neither is calling tech-service these days - if anyone even answers the call! (I'm not referring to any mfgr in particular)

Then there's the parts issues! Time was every truck could carry enough parts to get by with virtually any service call for about $300.00 in inventory - back when efficiencies were ultra-low, energy was dirt-cheap and no one cared what fuel cost. Today, we carry more than 100K in our shop inventory for HVAC parts & that doesn't even come close to being adequate! Our trucks carry more than 60K in parts each. I'd need a fleet of tractor-trailers to ensure we would have the parts required to service what we see in today's marketplace. Twisted Sister got behind the wheel of the parts-design-bus years ago and has had a field day working with Freddy Kruger to turn our service world into a nightmarish trip.

You called, they came, they got the boiler working. Pay the bill and if you're not happy, call someone else next time and consider it a lesson in the school of not-so-hard knocks.

Just my 2-cents.

J.C.A._3

At this point...

You should feel like you're beating a dead horse.

You've been given opinions from some of the best in the heating field.

Facts is Facts. You weren't there, and called a company to fix YOUR install.(sometimes....that in and of itself can be QUITE a Challenge)

They charged you for the time it took to make the system SAFE...and what it took to make it right.I don't really care if you were 20,000 miles away....that's what I would do without the parts to repair it...and would have stood around to check the parts that I installed too. I'm a serviceman. That's what I do...and I try to do it properly every time. Chris

Unknown

I think you guys are being a bit hard on Howie. Sure It's hard being a mechanic, there's a lot of mistrust, some people will assume that they are getting ripped off no mater what. This comes with the territory, (maybe it's part of what justifies our compensation) It does get to me that certain professionals may do very well in there chosen fields but somehow think that a guy who fixes their boiler or builds their addition is worth an order of magnitude less for his services. But do these resentments don't belong here?

Perhaps a flat rate approach would be more palatable in these cases, Lets try and see it from Howie's perspective. I'm sure it's hard to swallow the fact that a simple part failure may have eaten 2 years of fuel savings (just a guess). Especially for a guy who if he had been home could probably have fixed the problem with a philips head screwdriver and continuity tester in 20 minuets.

I'm not saying he was over charged, but I can sympathize. Did this outfit suggest a cleaning and combustion test when they returned to the house the next day? This would shown professionally and presented a way of recovering some of the associated transportation costs to the HO.

By the way Howie, you really do need to open the combustion chamber and clean it once a year, especial if your burning LP.

Rest assured the vito is a very well built machine and barring any really bad luck, your fuel savings will recover this unfortunate maintenance blip. Good luck.

Care to show us any pictures of your "do it your self" job? that might quiet (or perhaps inflame) those who rail against you.

Unknown

Semantics- working or faulty

The tech was checking if the new high limit was faulty not if it was working. The only way to test if the sensor is working is to expose it to a temperature above the functioning limit of the boiler.

This is a redundant safety device, exposing it to DHW production temps (assuming they are at factory default) makes sure the device is not faulty, It does not prove that it is working: ie. that it will accomplish it's safety purpose. Most would take this on faith.

Stephen C.

Nicely balanced

Well stated and worth a smile

hb_4

The company.........

..... should have stated it's charges up front, whether it would be T & M or flat rate. If they charge travel they should have said so and how much, either miles or time. In these times of $120.00+ per hour and $4.00 per gallon, service visits can be costly. A $400 or $500 service visit is more the norm than the exception any more.

I agree with the others with the fact that it is impossible to have everything you need for everything you see these days. I inventory almost every part of a Vitodens 8-32, but have virtually no specialty parts for Munchkins or others. My hope is that someday manufacturers will set up parts distribution for their vetted contractors to have access 24/7 via FedEx so contractors don't have to become wholesalers, since wholesalers don't want to carry a parts inventory any longer.

hb

Mike T., Swampeast MO

In my experience it's the installers and service techs who don' examine manuals before working on sophisticated or unfamiliar equipment who are the ones to worry about.

Timco

Out of curiosity, you mentioned you were 2000 miles away. If it was for business, were you paid for your travel or expected to be 2000 miles away at your own expense?

Tim