Viessmann Plant in China

Constantin

Bruce M

Viessmann Plant in China

Are any of the products made in the Viessmann plant in China shipped to North America? I read that the Viessmann RS series had many of the parts made by Fonderie Sime SPA in Italy. With all of the outsourcing it is sometimes hard to know who makes what and where it is made.

Constantin

I doubt...

... that you will get a official reply here. Viessmann employees are not allowed to post at HeatingHelp, last I heard.

As for that plant in China, I can't help but think that Viessmann is following in the footsteps of other manufacturers like Weil McLain to build up local resources for a ~300M household market. Shipping complete boilers to China makes a lot less sense than casting the heavy, bulky stuff locally and importing the electronics, burners, etc. to then assemble the boilers in China. It's a big market over there!

This model is not that different from Toyota, Honda, etc. who for a long time imported high-value items like engines for assembly into their US auto plants. As local suppliers get better, the foreign content shrinks and the currency risk associated with selling in that country declines as well.

From what I recall, the RS was special in the sense that it was someone else's boiler that Viessmann rebadged and upgraded with their controls. This is quite limited compared to the rampant re-badging that is common in the mod-con field. In the cast-iron boiler field, consider the many labels under which you find a deDetrichs boiler. No boiler manufacturer is 100% vertically integrated anymore, though Viessmann comes closer than most.

Kelly_3

You are correct

We are currently manufacturing in China, Taiwan & Korea under our strict guidelines. We cannot compete in the world market manufacturing in Europe. All of the others have followed suit. Hope this clears this up.

Hermann Dautrich
Div.of Sales
Viessmann

Bruce M

Herr Dautrich

Thank you for the reply. It is good to know that a top quality company like Viessmann is providing quality products to Asia. I know that your company has to compete throughout the world. I wish you the utmost success.

MFG

Bruce

Kelly_3

Question

What do you think the working conditions are in those areas? What's the pay 2 dollars a day? Shouldn't the Vitodens come down in price since it's being produced by child slave labor? A great boiler being made in deplorable conditions. Shame on you Viesmann, shame on you Herman! Buy American!

Bruce M

Kelly You are Wrong

You made a statement about child labor without any proof. Do you really think Viessmann would risk ruining their reputation by doing that? Viessmann has a plant in Canada for North American equipment. Almost every successful manufacturer has plants worldwide. The current high value of the Euro and the cost to ship heavy items to Asia makes Asian plants a necessity.

Bill Baker

Get Real Bruce

Do you really think that because it's Viessmann that they pay asian employees more than market value? Why do you think everything is made there? Because kids make stuff for 2 cents an hour. GET REAL and watch the news. Everytime you buy a boiler you are guilty!

Nron_13

even in china there are good companies that pay a decent living wage , a friend of mine was just there to visit family and they work in a manufacturing industry and are not office staff and there doing all right , not much different than us , you get what you pay for no matter what country you live in ,unskilled workers nerver give you reliable product.

Paul Fredricks_5

I picture a country full of working children, all the parents are on unemployment. Not.

Things like that happen all over the world. But I tend to believe it is the exception, not the rule. I would hope that any good company would make sure that things are done right. I'm not so naive to believe that things are all OK, but I have to believe things are OK with most companies doing business in China.

Paul Pollets

Viessmann in China

Dr. Viessmann discussed the plant in China when giving his speech at the 25th anniversary bash in Toronto several years ago. The products are made for use in the far east only. Viessmann has also instructed the Chinese to build "green" manufacturing facilities, that greatly reduce pollution.

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Ex-Chinese factory worker

Conditions are terrible, I know I was there!

Poor working conditions in Chinese factories, as well as a lack of workers' rights, are not new. Other groups have documented worker abuse and working conditions long considered unfathomable in the U.S.

In February 1999, a report released by the Hong Kong Christian Industrial Committee found that workers in "south China producing clothes illustrated with Disney characters are working for cripplingly low wages and in poor conditions."

"Workers from one factory reported being paid only 10 cents above their standard wage for five-hour overtime shifts," said the group's report, adding that "in another factory, employees regularly work 16 hours, seven days a week."

"Workers in a third factory couldn't afford to go home for the Chinese New Year holiday because they had not been paid for three months," said the report.

Yet, despite repeated documentation of poor working conditions in China, policymakers, members of Congress and the Bush administration are still pushing for more free trade of the kind that would allow more U.S. companies to set up shop in China – enlarging the trade deficit and doing little to protect the rights of Chinese workers.
Restrictions extend to the number of times that a worker can go to the toilet and the length of time spent there. In one factory employees were fined two days wages for going to the toilet more than twice in a day. A survey of more than 1,530 workers found that such regimentation was widespread, as was the use of corporal punishment. Many factories also prohibited marriage, steady relationships and penalised women workers who became pregnant.

To enforce their rules, companies employ small armies of private security guards, often armed with electric batons and other weapons to patrol factories and dormitory compounds. These guards work closely with the local police who are brought in to suppress protests over working conditions, unpaid wages, layoffs and unpaid pensions.


Please, not for one moment think that working conditions in asian factories are good because of the name of the product. I thank God I was able to come to America.

Zou

¹«¼¦³ÔµÄÈË

Unknown

what was Brad?

What was Brad trying to say in last message?

Brad White_185

Was not me!

I have no idea.....

I just know what Confucius say: "Man who get on plane sideways going to Bangkok".

Darin Cook_5

Brad

You kill me Bud!!!!!!!!!!!





Darin

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Supply House Rick

Brad, That's My favorite

Confucius says, Crowded elevator smell different to midget.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Kelly, Hermann and Brad

Kelly is right, buy American

Hermann is wrong, NOT ALL boiler manufacturers have plants in Asia

and Brad, cracks me up

I heard that half the people in China drive with cataracts..

The other half drive with rincolns

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Supply House Rick

Amen

Well said Bob...

Steve Ebels_3

To all of the \"Buy American\" dudes

I challenge you to go to your closet and look at the tags in your clothes. I don't know if you can find any article of clothing that's made in the USA. How about that pair of Nike or Adidas or New Balance tennis shoes? Or, do a little check on where the hand tools in your tool box come from.

Reality is that it truly is a global marketplace. It will likely stay that way until rising energy and transportation costs make it infeasible to ship products across oceans. (Hint, read Tom Friedman's book "The World is Flat") We can't change the fact that manufacturers are always looking for lower costs of production. Doesn't matter if they make socks or boilers or do back office bookkeeping. If they don't they go out of business. Just look at the afore mentioned US clothing industry. The East and South used to hum with the sound of mechanized looms. Not anymore. It's ALL overseas and will stay there until we figure out how to manufacture it more cost effectively here.

As to the fact that working conditions in some factories are deplorable and even inhumane, the people working there must consider that employment better than other alternatives available to them. Unless of course it is indeed labor forced under threat of bodily harm. Still, we have to remember that standards of living enjoyed by those here in the US who are declared to be below the poverty level, are far above those endured by the vast majority of the rest of the world.

By the standards of human treatment we hold to dearly here in the US, the conditions in a lot of these factories are deplorable. But I have faith in the human need for freedom and think that in time doors to it will be gradually pried open by the same market forces that started the exodus of manufacturing jobs from the US and other developed countries in the first place.

Do we stand idly by and simply enjoy the savings supplied by "forced" labor? By no means! We should all, as much as possible, keep an eye on companies that utilize underpaid and/or abused workers. When one is exposed, their products should be boycotted at the least. The country allowing such practices should be penalized with tariffs or imports shut down.

The pulpit is now empty.

GLENN_14

good luck there

I agree with the post that buy American is stupid. We have seen the American made products leave the wholsale shelves as cheaper inports have replaced them. What drove this trend. All of you consumers demanding more for less. Consider that fact. I do not agree with the fact that the conditions that are deplorable are still ok based on the alternative. Sanctions will do little to help these poor people though (sigh). There is no easy answer to this global problem.....

Steve Ebels_3

Read closer Glen

I said conditions were better than the alternative, not that they were OK. Big difference. I agree that the lust for cheaper goods (Wal Mart mentality) is what drives the whole thing. When was the last time Wally World had a year where they lost money. And while we're on the subject of Wally World.......there is probably no American company that beats up their suppliers more than them. If you want to sell to WalMart, you're placed in a little cubicle with a buyer and basically told what you will be paid not asked how much your product costs. Lot's of suppliers take the plunge for any number of the wrong reasons. Then let's talk about demanding no questions asked product warranties, or withholding payment for 90-120 days as standard procedure. WalMart for a large part, built their empire on the backs of their suppliers. Who do you think is the wrolds largest importer of most of those dry goods from China, Thailand and other third world countries.

Pulpit empty again

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

I can't buy everything

Made in America, but I can try to buy the big ticket items like vehicles and boilers. I know US cars are often manufactured in Mexico or Canada but at least its North America. If you choose to send your money for boilers, and repair parts overseas, thats your option, I prefer to keep my dollars in the USA economy. I know they say its now a global economy, but when the Germans start buying some of these great American boilers they are making over here now, maybe I'll take a look at German boilers. My uncles were old union plumbers and they wouldn't even drive in a foreign car, they would roll over in their grave if I bought boilers from overseas.

Signed, Proud to be a "Buy American Dude"

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Steve Ebels_3

Last time I looked

The domestic content was higher on the Toyota car I looked at than the Chevy I checked out on the next lot down the street. Ever look to see where the ignition control for any W/M, Burnham or Peerless was made?

It's a fact of life Bob, not one that like especially, but one that we will all adapt to or fade out of the picture.

GLENN_14

steve I see little difference

I agree with the Wal Mart mentality problem, But i also feel that we fail to understand just how bad conditions are for others around this little ball we call earth. We take for granted our rightr to do what we do along with the right to speak our peace. That freedom does not happen in other countries and we can not fathom the real human toll for our purchasing decisions.. I agree that WalMart is a very big gorilla in the world market. Consumers have driven this mentality though, just as consumers have driven American made products from the shelves of wholesalers. I have seen the change over the past few years from the perspective of the wholsale community. It the buying habits that dictate many of the moves made to keep customers coming in the doors....

hot_rod

that Wal Mart story, Steve

isn't exactly true. A bit of sensationalizing by the shock jock media. Being in the shadows of Wal-Mart headquarters in Arkansas, a lot of my customers work for Wal-Mart and Sam's club. Many small manufacturers around here sell to them.

They treat suppliers much better than that 'old' story and any manufacturer has the right to say no to selling to Wal-Mart, if they don't like the deal.

WalMart also runs the largest trucking fleet in the world. All their trucks I see on the highways are built in the USof A and driven by Americans

I have a customer that is an mechanical engineer for Wal-Mart working on their new "green" buildings like the one in Aurora, Co. with radiant, solar, and wind power.

They plow plenty of money back into this countries economy, and give millions to worthy causes.

hot rod

Steve Ebels_3

Glen

I agree with everything you said.

Leo G_101

I read

an op piece by a local writer recently. He feels that WalMart should be given the nobel peace prize.

The gist of his argument was that by being so big and all over the world, they have literally raised hundreds of thousands, if not millions of peoples living standards. Also by constantly pushing the market to lower prices, they have helped millions, not just third world, but also here in NA and europe, of very poor people to be able to buy items that were always out of their reach. Also by having these lower prices, the poor among us have a bit more discretionary income for maybe better food, clothes, or a decent present for their kids.

Funny, after reading this piece, my dislike for WalMart dropped right away.

LG

Couderay

Wall Mart

Yes life is so much better with wall mart. It amazes me how did we ever get along with out wall mart. Every one wants change. Well no one asked me but hey gotta love the way the world is going. It just gets better and better and better.................

bovide_4

I would like to hear more

from Zou, the ex Chinese factory worker. He has a story to tell, and can shed better light on the moral dilemma of buying from China.

Maine Doug_70

I imagine he has

some interesting stories to tell.

I can't get too excited over moral issues buying goods from anyone. I have some real issues with the fact that we accept the loss of thousands of teenagers every year to vehicle accidents. Same for the loss of 14,000 people or so every year to drunk drivers. Over 100,000 to medical and hospital errors. Have you looked at the annual deaths from the flue and check out our national murder rate.

The issues with buying China made products were decided long ago when we built huge container ship ports. You can guess where the cranes were built. When you think of it, the invention of standardized containers and container ships was a real defining moment in low cost global freight. A connected world no doubt. Curious how China is looking at Indonesia, India and Viet Nam for lower cost production, China is getting more expensive as their Industrial Revolution proceeds.

Kelly_4

Gracious Thanks to you

Eighty percent of the interviewed workers at the Viessmann facility said on top of the normal work day of 10-12 hours, they worked an additional 2 hours of overtime every day. Forty percent of the interviewed workers said that overtime work is compulsory and 75 percent mentioned that if they failed to work overtime, they would receive a fine or a warning. Although 60 percent said that the overtime work was not compulsory, they said that if you do not complete your daily quota, you had to stay behind to complete it. The Chinese Lab our Law and both the Viessmann Codes of Conduct all say that they will not use forced labour. However, coercing workers into forced overtime--particularly after a working day already well over the legal limit--directly violates both the Codes and China's Labour Law.

Moreover, according to the China Labour Law Article 44, overtime pay should be at least 1.5 times the regular wage. In the survey, half the workers who were paid by piece rate did not receive any extra pay for overtime work. In addition, many workers did not know how much they got for overtime. Monthly wages ranged between $48.19 and $72.29 (400 and 600Rmb), including their overtime pay.

Social security benefits, health care, child care and bereavement leave were not provided by the factory, although they are mandatory by law. Health care is also not provided on a regular basis, and less than half said health check-ups were given by the factory.

According to the interviews, 80 percent of the workers said they did not need any safety equipment or protection for their jobs. However, many workers recalled accidents which had occurred in the factory, particularly workers' hands or fingers being cut off by the machines.

While workers said that the ventilation in the workplace was acceptable, they complained about noise, air pollution and fumes. Many of them have skin irritations, and several suffer from dizziness and headaches.

The workers at Viessmann have to participate in mandatory calisthenics every day. Unlike workers in other factories, they are not allowed to talk to their coworkers while working, and the management favors the use corporal abuse. However, verbal abuse and fines are popular methods of punishment. Many workers mentioned that for minor offences, the fines were $3.61 (30Rmb), but for major mistakes the fines could be as much as $10.84 (90Rmb).

Because of the [Tiananmen Square] crackdown in 1989, people are very cautious about joining a formal organisation. The government has responded with a policy of repression during the past 18 months. Arbitrary detentions have increased, new curbs have been placed on petitioners and controls on the internet have been tightened.

Human rights campaigners say more local authorities are also using hired thugs to deny people their legal rights. Nicolas Becquelin, of Human Rights in China, said some local governments have their own private militias, often comprised of relatives of local officials and police officers.

It is becoming more and more dangerous to be a rights activist because of the increase in intimidation using unlawful means. There are some areas that are totally lawless. This is one reason why insurance companies rate journalism as the second most dangerous profession in China.

Buying American sounds good to me, I love this country, God bless the Red White and Blue.

Zou

Kelly_4

C'mon guys

Now what do you think of your precious product being manufactured under these conditions!

Shame on you Viesmann, shame on you Herman! Buy American!

scott markle_2

high cost of low price

H.R,

While this documentary (high cost of low price) clearly has a perspective that is very unflattering to Wall mart, I found it to be an interesting piece of Journalism. I suggest you give it a watch. It might change your perspective a bit.

Maine Doug_70

How do you

deal with the American companies that actively seek foreign manufacturing? Many US based companies make just some of their products outside. Would that be buying American if you could tell what was local? A US casting of a boiler with foreign made controls either with the boiler or online running the casting plant would be American?

What do we do with a Washington administration and a Congress that encourages world trade and designates some countries as favored nations?

What companies make TV's and Microwaves in the US?

What US companies buy precious metals and special raw materials from countries that practice ethnic extermination?

Too bad our buying decisions could not be made simpler.
This is an excerpt from The Triangle Building fire in 1911. US history is full of worker abuse. It seems to be part of the evolution of industrial revolutions. Perhaps we will live long enough to see the point where China has to import because all the Chinese workers have good pay, short hours, vacations and health care like the US workers and it is too costly to manufacture there.
All this reminds me of Dan's story about the copper elbow.


"Eight months after the fire, a jury acquitted Blanck and Harris, the factory owners, of any wrong doing. The task of the jurors had been to determine whether the owners knew that the doors were locked at the time of the fire."

"Customarily, the only way out for workers at quitting time was through an opening on the Green Street side, where all pocketbooks were inspected to prevent stealing. Worker after worker testified to their inability to open the doors to their only viable escape route, the stairs to the Washington Place exit, because the Greene Street side stairs were completely engulfed by fire. More testimony supported this fact. Yet the brilliant defense attorney Max Steuer planted enough doubt in the jurors' minds to win a not-guilty verdict. Grieving families and much of the public felt that justice had not been done. "Justice!" they cried. "Where is justice?"

Twenty-three individual civil suits were brought against the owners of the Asch building. On March 11, 1913, three years after the fire, Harris and Blanck settled. They paid 75 dollars per life lost."

And here is a more current example. Perhaps this would be labeled a mild version.
http://tinyurl.com/2m3tmp

Give em' hell Harry

Constantin

Do you prefer latex or silicone?

HP

Viessmann Plant China

Maybe I can help.

Our facility in China is built and constructed similar to our facility in Warwick, Rhode Island. The office contains a showroom; upstairs we have working models installed for training and education, together with a seminar room. The attached warehouse/assembly facility is approx. 1-1/2 times the size compared to Viessmann Warwick. We only have five adults assembling from prefabricated components the wall-mounted atmospheric gas-fired heating boiler series Vitopend. This is straight-forward assembly work similar to our assembly line in Waterloo, Ontario, except even cleaner. The Vitopend boiler series is assembled in China for the Chinese market only. None of these Vitopend boilers are either imported to Europe or North America.

In China, we furthermore sell our fire tube boiler Vitomax series made in Berlin/Mittenwalde, Germany. Also the Vitogas cast iron boiler series and the Vitodens 200 series; these two products are produced at Head Office in Allendorf, Germany. The flat-plate Viessmann Vitosol solar panels are made in France and also shipped to China. All these products are imported into China.

In total, we employ 70 people in China; however, most of them in sales, service and office positions. We also have five sales offices in China, in addition to Headquarters.

All our facilities worldwide receive a total of over 60,000 seminar participants per year and our facilities are open at any time to any Viessmann partner or homeowner.

Anyone wishing to visit our Headquarters in Beijing, China (address available on our website: www.viessmann.cn/zh) is welcome at any time.

Harald Prell,
Viessmann North America

Bruce M

I Think Some of You Need to Apologize to Viessmann

There have been quite a few negative comment concerning Viessmann posted here. Unfortunately, too many people relied upon the information from the person named Zou. Rather than choosing to believe this unknown poster, I will take the word of Mr. Prell from the Viessmann Company. I believe that his invitation to visit Viessmann in China should dispel any untruthful postings here. I have seen a picture of the Viessmann facility in China and it is exactly as he described it. Just to prevent any misunderstandings, I do not work for Viessmann or own any of their products. All of you who were ready to think the worst of Viessmann need to apologize.

Bunny

How do we know Harald is real

Just a thought? ("I believe that his invitation to visit Viessmann in China should dispel any untruthful postings here.) Yeah, we will get right on that! Pack up the bus boys we're going to China! Too bad their market share is less than .5%

Bruce M

You Do Not Need To Get on the Bus

You can see pictures on the internet. That will save you the bus fare.

Bunny

I'm Real Too

Sincerely,

The Tooth Fairy