Gas burner in oil fired boiler

JackR

I did ask that question to a Burnham rep recently and he stated it was being looked at but with the amount of new product being introduced by Burnham they had a lot on their plate.

I don't see why a Carlin E-Z Gas or Riello would not work, I think the problem would be it would not be certified. I'm sure if one of the gas burner manufacturers went to Burnham and offered to do the applications and offer the burner as an option themselves it might be an alternative quicker.

Do you think there is much of a market for a gas power burner on a residential three pass steam? Is anyone going to want to pay a substantial premium over a standard atmospheric steam boiler? Just thinking out loud.......

joe lambert_2

Has anyone ever installed a gas burner in an oil fired boiler? Here is one from Riello http://www.riello-burners.com/2_products/3_gas-burners/3a_40-series-gas-fired.asp

Rocky_3

do it all the time

Buderus boilers (as they don't care what kind of fuel you burn). Normally people would think of these as "oil" boilers, but we put Riello gas power burners on them all the time. Nice set-up.
Rocky

joe lambert_2

steam boiler

Do you think that the Riello power gas burner would work on a steam boiler such as the Weil McLain SGO series or a Burnham Mega steam boiler? I can't see why not!

joe lambert_2

I don't know

Probably not but there might be a market for those who already have a fairly new wet base boiler with oil and because of the high cost of oil right now might want to switch to gas without replacing the whole boiler. With a wet base boiler you could also switch from oil to gas depending on which fuel was cheaper.

With an atmospheric boiler the AFUE ratings are in the low eighties range but if you had a wet base boiler like the Burnham mega steam boiler with a gas power burner maybe you would get higher efficiency. Just a thought!

Keith_13

This is a good question. Would it be an economical conversion option for someone to go oil to gas by changing the gun and throwing a liner up the chimney instead of replacing the whole boiler? You guys are saying that local codes and manufacturer's warranties would not allow that?

Bob Bona_4

that's what

I'm thinking Keith..If a boiler was modified like that w/o mfr blessing or approval, and something goes wrong...oh boy. Lawyer heaven.

Steamhead (in transit)

The thermal efficiency

of a wet-base boiler with power gas burner is something like 6% better than the typical atmospheric.

There are two reasons for this:

1- the power burner does a better job of mixing air and gas, so it needs less excess air for clean combustion, and

2- a wet-base boiler almost completely surrounds the flame with water-backed cast-iron, so it sends more heat from the flame to the radiators.

We like the Solaia 3-pass boilers with HeatWise power burners for gas-fired hot-water, and the Smith G-8 series with Carlin EZ-Gas for steam, since they handily outperform atmospherics but are still able to use standard chimney venting. In the old houses we work on, there is almost never a good place for mod-con sidewall venting. Both boiler lines are available from the factory with oil or gas burners, so there's no field-engineering involved.

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Rocky_3

Gas burner manufacturer usually assumes liability

for a conversion. For instance, a Burnham oil boiler with a retrofit gas burner on it. Burnham will basically say, "you change the burner to gas and all bets are off. You just voided our warranty." But, most gas burner manufacturers have tested their product on a myriad of boilers and given their blessing. Usually gas burner manufacturer says, "yeah, go ahead and use our burner on this particular boiler, we know it works." On a separate issue, bear in mind that if a boiler burns with an 86% efficiency on oil, if you put a gas burner on it, you will lose about 2.5% efficiency off of whats stated for oil. For instance, Buderus literature says a 315-5 boiler with oil has an AFUE of 86.8%, while same boiler with gas has an AFUE of 84.2%. Not apples to apples when converting from oil to gas. Just keep that in mind.
Rocky

Steamhead (in transit)

But even with a slightly lower AFUE

you're still getting better AFUE than the usual atmospheric boiler, and the better thermal efficiency (not the same as AFUE) makes it a no-brainer.

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Bob Bona_4

understood

but if the boiler the gas burner is retrofitted to develops some warranty issue (leak/noise/whatever), the homeowner is stuck.

I'm just saying that the last thing I need is to drastically modify what was a matched, approved, engineered oil burner/boiler combo, and then something go wrong. The fingers will be 'a pointing, and there will be a sole, lonely, forlorn figure at the foremost..the installing contractor.

This excludes dual fuel approved units, of course.

joe lambert_2

oil to gas conversion

There is one manufacturer that uses both burners in one boiler and that is the Smith G8 for gas or the Smith 8 series for oil. Same boiler just different burners! I just wish other manufacturers would follow. Think about all the snow men that were retrofitted from oil burners to gas successfully.

Steamhead (in transit)

Not just the Smith 8

for hot-water, the Solaia series of 3-pass boilers is available from the factory with HeatWise power gas burners as well as Beckett and Riello oil burners. We have installed both (as well as the Smith G-8 for steam) and like these boilers a lot.

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Bob Bona_4

Frank

how does the stack temp differ between the two burners? (oil/gas)

Steamhead (in transit)

I'd have to look that up

I'll try to remember that when I get back to the shop.

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joe lambert_2

G8

Steamhead,

Do you think the smith series boilers are as good as boilers from Weil McLain and Burnhan Hydronics? Why do you think other boiler manufacturers haven't offered a power gas burner like Smith?

Bruce Stevens_2

Yes the Smith

is as good as Weil and Burnham although the Mega Steam is a three pass boiler, why they don't have gas versions is because they do not feel that there is enough market to go through the certification process from what I have been told.

Boilerpro_5

Peerless also offers both burners

in many of their boilers. The SC, LC and TC offer both oil, gas and oil/gas burners from the factory and all are both water and steam. The SC is the smallest of the bunch, good for larger residential (can be fired at 300,000 btu/hr input). Power Flame also has some small modulating gas burners. Haven't ried them yet, but things are looking up!

Boilerpro

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Lee Covino

Gas Gun Conversion

For me, the Arabs have just priced themselves out of my house. When we installed our Burnham V-87 (steam system)in October 2002, the cost of oil was $1.39.9/gal. Today, my most recent delivery was $3.41.9/gal, a 241% increase!! My local gas company is offering a free conversion burner and I'm taking them up on the deal! I won't have to change out the boiler and only have to pay for the installation and running some black pipe. Even with the difference in BTU's, gas is now affordable for my 1918 2-family home in Staten Island, NY. We also belong to the NYPIRG fuel buyers co-op (http://www.nypirg.org/fbg/), which has a gas contract at 10% savings from the current cost. We've belonged to the co-op for over 20 years, and this was the first year that they could not hold the cap on oil prices. So now, I'm getting off of the hamster wheel of escalating oil prices. Gas is a domestic product not subject to the turbulence of the middle-east, refinery fires and the like. It's not cheap, but certainly more affordable than oil than before. I don't see that the price of oil will ever come back down to reasonable levels in the near future...

Steamhead (in transit)

Wait till

all the power plants in your area finish converting to gas. What do you think that will do to gas prices?

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Lee Covino

Our local power plants are already dual-fuel. When the price of oil is good, they fire on oil. If gas is down and oil is up, they fire on gas. Plus, gas is regulated by the Public Service Commission, and they can't just up the price without going through hoops. You'd never see a 241% jump in 6 years! New gas fields have just been found in Appalachia -- enough to power us well after my lifetime and my daughter's, too!

Unknown

As someone who has installed

over 3,600 conversion burners over the last 40 years it is rare when you will find a design oil boiler that will not work with a good conversion burner. It is a typical installation properly done that will give you a minimum combustion efficiency of 80% or better with low CO.

I have a manual available on Conversion Burner installation and combustion testing of same.

Lee Covino

Thanks for your thoughts, Tim. My wife is a little squeamish about the volitility and CO issue of gas. I'll be installing CO alarms in all three floors of the house, as well as the basement. I don't think the manual is necessary, as the gas company is doing the installation, and we'll probably get a maintenance contract for the burner with them.

RonWHC

Hmm.

Wonder if the the folks who are gearing up for LNG Terminals are whistling into the wind. Or. Do they know something about domestic natural gas supplies we don't?

Might be worthwhile to convert - - if you can lock in prices for a few years. Otherwise, your money might be better spent in Vegas. Or Atlantic City.

And. You had best make sure the guys who do the conversion know about steam. It's not as forgiving as hot water. Lower price per btu means little, if they shoot for high combustion numbers, & forget about needed btu input.

Mitch_4

Question Rocky

Will the burner manufacturer cover the heat exchanger if it fails?

What I was told for oil to gas conversion (forced air inthis case and it IS a different reason) is that tha H.E. in an oil furnace is not designed to extract the heat as efficiently with lower combustion gas temps from NG or LP. Heavier in design. Due to that, there is a definite possibility of condensation. Oil furnaces (with the manufacturer I use) that have a conversion burner on them are not covered under warranty, not eligible for tech help, nada..they never built it that way, tested it nothing, essentially you built your own furnace, and in reality, unless there is a letter from the gas burner manufacturer DOCUMENTING the approval, then a field approval from TSSA (our AHJ) should be done.

Maine Doug_70

I am curious about

how you know where your oil comes from. Is it stamped "Product of xxxxxx"? I wonder if the oil from Canada or Mexico or from the US is cheaper. I know that oil from Venezuela came to Maine and several other states at low cost to be used for residents that ran out of money. The captain of one of the tankers that docked in my town came into my shop.

Since 2006, oil is up 60% in dollars but only 30% in Euros. Going to get worse so moving to dual fuel might be a good move now. Investers are moving out of dollars and into oil and gas futures.

Maine Doug_70

Lee, I am curious about

how you know where your oil comes from. Is it stamped "Product of xxxxxx"? I wonder if the oil from Canada or Mexico or from the US is cheaper. I know that oil from Venezuela came to Maine and several other states at low cost to be used for residents that ran out of money. The captain of one of the tankers that docked in my town came into my shop.

Since 2006, oil is up 60% in dollars but only 30% in Euros. Going to get worse so moving to dual fuel might be a good move now. Investers are moving out of dollars and into oil and gas futures.

Lee Covino

Hi, Doug--
It doesn't matter where it comes from. What matters is that 6 yrs ago, it was $1.40 and now it's $3.42 and climbing. My conversion will allow going back, if oil ever gets competitive again. I never thought it would become more costly than natural gas. But it is now, and there's no end in sight...we homeowners are just starting to wake up.
--Lee

Frenchie

oil to gas

Bingo, Lee. Me too! as soon as my tank runs dry I will be putting a Wayne natural gas conversion burner in my Crown oil boiler. Whan I had the boiler installed in Jan. 2006 I bought the gas burner at the same time, and had the gas line capped off right next to the boiler. Should be a 20 minute changeover. I'll be switching on a yearly basis from now on- Whatever is cheaper!

Lee Covino

Way to go, Jason. If I do ever have to replace the unit I got in '02, it'll be a dual-use boiler. If we'd have gotten a real winter this year, I would be belly-up! I think the market will be driving many of us away from oil in the coming months/years--Lee

Unknown

20 minutes WOW

If that was the case I could have put in 10,000 power burners. There is a lot more to the conversion than just sticking a burner into the boiler and walking away.

George Endres

Yes to gas conversion!

I did an oil to gas conversion to my boiler in 1980. I have moved to a no gas area now, but would do another conversion safety item, though.in an instant if I could get nat gas here. The yearly clean up and tune up were gone from my life for 20 years, and when sold, I got the gas company to check it (for free too), all adjustments were still correct.

One Check the flue the year after you convert. All the old oil soot falls off the inside and piles up. In my case I spotted the lack of draft and found the whole thing blocked up with buckets of old soot that fell down the flue. I then cleaned up the boiler one final time, too. Nice to have it get cleaner instead of dirtier each year!

Lee Covino

Thanks! And, I'm sure we've come a long way since 1980. I'll be putting in a sleeve in the chimney, so we start off clean. I haven't heard any real horror stories yet about conversion. If the only horror story is that the heat exchange dies after a number of years of additional moisture, by then it will be time to replace my 6 yr old system anyway...I'm getting an estimate on the job from my gas company Firday.

Frenchie

Tim-Correct.

Tim- Yes I know there is more to it. Lots of the work was done in 2006 when the oil boiler was installed. The chimney was lined in stainless steel, and the nat gas line was run down the side of the boiler and capped. I have access to an analyzer from my former co-workers at the LP gas company. In this case 20 minutes should be realistic. I am leaving the oil tank and lines to the boiler fully intact.I put this boiler in with the intention of being able to switch fuels. Even though Crown doesn't offer a gas burner for this unit, I am willing to eat the possible warranty loss. Also, the boiler is already nice and clean with no soot inside-no problem there.

Unknown

Jason are you

changing the barometric?

Frenchie

Sort of The damper that came with the Crown is an el cheapo-can't remember the brand-The only thing that stops it from swinging outward is a stamped out metal tab bent upwards to stop movement in that direction. I tried bending it down and firing the AFG up to watch it. on ignition, the damper moved outwards to relieve the initial "puff" pressure, then returned to normal operation. So.... I should be able to get away without replacing it. I am a big fan of oil heat, so I hate to do this, but I can't keep ignoring the growing price differential. I have gas in the basement for DHW already anyhow....

Unknown

Jason it is somewhat

important to get some education on gas conversions. For example with gas you need a double swing barometric. That is just the tip of the iceberg. There is a lot more to it than you think.

Lee Covino

Gas Gun Installation Costs

The gas company just gave me an estimate. I won't have to insert a sleeve in the chimney, nor decertify my underground tank (it was there under the garage floor we I bought the house). The gas company will file the permit and install the pipe (about a 22' straight run from the main) and gun in one visit. Since it's union work, the cost is $3,400 -- even though the gun is "free." Still in all, I feel compelled to do it now when I get my tax returns. I'm not going to be at the the beck-and-call of OPEC next heating season, no sir!

Frenchie

Lee, could you get a separate heating contractor to do it for you? I know pricing is taboo here- But I suspect you could get a better deal than the gas company. The other thing possible is get a plumber or yourself to do the piping, then have a heating guy set up the burner.

Frenchie

Tim I wish I was in your area! You should see what goes on around here. I would love to take your class. When I worked for an LP company here you would probably vomit seeing the sorry on the job training I received. Still, even though I left the LP biz, I trust myself more than the hacks around here. I just looked at a friends 20+ year old Utica dry base oil boiler that was converted to NG by a local company- I was frightened by what I saw. The blast tube was halfway in the chamber- impingement city, and that was just the beginning. I wish I had a pic for you! Here in Rural farm country there just aren't many options. No inspections are done around here. Scary stuff! I will follow the manual from Wayne when I set mine up.

chris_95

Converting

I just found out I need to get a new set of oil tanks installed costing 2,600.

it's making me consider gas as an option. I currently use it for hot water and cooking so, I have it in the house next to my boiler.

I have an 8 or 9 year old Burham bolier (pv73sc) with and 81.4 effcency rating and it was suggested to m by someone that I can simply get the burner changed over making this economical. It sounds too good to be true and I don't want to look like a dope when I call the plumber in to ask him about this.

Also is gas a better option than oil ? I've always used it to cook but never to heat it would get theoil tank out of the house and free me from worrying about a spill as well as reducing the number of utlity companies i have to deal with. on the down side it would mean that I have less alternatives in the house for heating it and I am not sure if it really is more cost effective.

I'd welcome any opinions.