Snow melt

Rob Blair

That's what I want to know!!

My buddy has a landscaping business and is looking for those "yutes" (From "My Cousin VInnie)!

Rob

Doug_7

Thanks Rod

I thought you covered the basics pretty well for installing the slab, the tubing up to and including charging the glycol. But it is important to explain the operating costs and the Do's and Don'ts of the snow melting controls.

Proper controls can save the owner thousands of dollars per year in operating cost.

Three out of three buildings I visited either had no snow melting controls or had controls that were not used. The installer had said - Don't worry about that - just turn the system ON before it snows.

Installing proper controls and instructing the owner in the proper use of these controls is a pretty big DO on behalf of the installer. Then you won't have to lock the gas line.

Doug

troy_8

Asphalt

I agree. 3/4" tube 9"oc. 300' loop length.125btu/sq. foot. I have installed a few asphalt driveways in the asphalt. I tied the tube to mesh and the driveway guy puts down low temp. binder. The difficulty is it has to be wheelbarrowed and hand tamped over the tube. After the initial layer covers the tube and has been tamped and cooled, the finer layers are applied and rolled. During the asphalt laying I run cold water through the tube.

Mad Dog_2

Now.....Now, Rich

I was staying out of this until you brought Rush in to this. Was that necessary? Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Even in my neigborhood.................................

Where most folks have Chevys or Toyotas........it is a RARE event to see ANY body show up at your door when it snows...looking to make a buck...ain't happenin! Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Very good points, Troy

Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Even BETTER points....

But who degenerated this conversation? Mad Dog

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Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

It's not easy being Green

Troy, no one is telling you not to do snowmelt, we are only telling you that we won't do them. I'm not exactly an historian, but doesn't socialism keep people from saying what they feel? Like Rich I'm going to say what I feel. I'm not any better and I'm definitely not any smarter than others on this site, where did you get that from? What I am is real stubborn, and I work really hard at something I believe in. It's funny you ask what I did today to make me greener than yesterday. I'm a member of Lowell's Green Building Commission, and we had a meeting today at 8AM where we worked on a Green Building Checklist that the building dept is going to include in their permits to raise awareness. I was elected chairman of the policy subcommittee. I know, your going to say "big deal". But here in Lowell the green movement is really gaining momentum, and I am proud to be part of that movement. Also today I got the neighbors kid to agree to recycle. He asked me many questions about how recycling saves energy. I'm going to get the kid a recycling bin tommorrow along with 4 others. There is only about 5 people on my street that don't recycle and I think I can get the kid to go around with me to get 100% of the people on my street recycling. Tuesday we had another meeting with the City Council about how we can increase our city wide recycling rate. I have attended about 6 green meeting in the last month alone. I am a member of the Lowell Canal Waters Cleaners and this past Saturday we had a cleanup with 88 people and filled 100's of bags with trash from our canals. I'm on the Canal Cleaners Board of Directors. After that cleanup Saturday I had a table for renewable energy for school aged kids at an Earth Day event where I made Solar Hula Hoops out of PEX, and it was the hit of the event, except for maybe the Eco Fashion Show. I'll post a picture when I get one. This coming Saturday we have a citywide cleanup where we expect 200 to 300 people for The Great American Cleanup. I have gone more than two years without burning fossil fuels for heating or domestic hot water. I cool my house only using well water, and I flush my toilets using recycled shower water. If you want me to show you what I have done come by my house anytime, or go to my website at www.BobGagnon.com I walk the walk and I try to lead by example but I'm also trying to get more people on the Green Bandwagon. Your pretty angry and maybe we'll never get you on that bandwagon but maybe we can change the minds of a few other people. It's really easy to scoff at something and criticize something, but it's really hard to make change.

Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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Rod Kotiga

Proper Snow melt controls

I'm all for proper snow melt controls. I was just saying that snow sensors will fire up your system with only a sciff of snow which is a bummer when your not there to overide it. I only use a high eff.condensing boilers for my melts and that's where alot of the fuel savings lie.

Rod

Rob Blair

REvised, Rich, then rob, then *****, and so on and so on.....

You get it.

rob

WV EGBERT_2

Not me

I did not degenerate this topic.
I don't like being call a Hypocrite though.

And once again, I'll state my feelings, if all residential snowmelt systems were ban in the U.S. it would not change things one bit.

But, if we limit our intake of red meat (and other not so green foods) which is consumes a great deal of energy to produce just one pound, maybe, just maybe we'll may make a slight difference in our environment. Not to mention a healthier lifestyle, and a trimer waist line. : )

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jp_2

don't blame the cows

whats wrong with free ranger red meat?

I can't tell, is this religion or politics?

Doug_7

Placement of Snow Sensor

Another important item is proper placement of the snow sensor. Needs to be located where it will sense fresh snow, but where vehicles are not very likely to drive over it.

When the driveway is cold, dry and bare, and a car comes off the snowy street and drives their wet tire right over the sensor, you get a false melting startup. Wastes a lot of money heating cold dry concrete for no reason.

Our sensor placement was right in the middle of one driving lane which is a poor location and cars drove over it a lot. Cars would come down the middle of a two lane driveway and run right over the sensor.

Big education problem in a multi-family building - don't drive over the snow sensor.

We didn't move the sensor, but were able to make some small physical changes to the traffic flow - just enough so cars now miss the sensor.

Need to get the sensor location right the first time, because there is no second chance.

What snow melting control do you like ?

Doug

WV EGBERT_2

JP

Free range good!!

Just the other night I bought some "organic" beef patties for the grille, They were so tasty, it was a religious experience : )


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Jerry L

snow melt

A boiler rep.giving a class referred me to this site saying "just type in snow melt and you will get all kinds of contractors helping you". Well as Rod pointed out, I didn't know this was going to turn out so political. I have read all the threads, and after sifting through the opinionated ones, I say thanks to those who helped me with what I asked and not how to conduct the rest of my life on earth. I just cut down a huge tree in my front yard that was into my sewer... Now I feel guilty. Maybe I should of moved my house!

Rich Kontny_3

Jerry

Any kids or friends in the military? Have any friends or neighbors who have lost anyone in Afganistan,Iraq or anywhere? Are you ok with someone else doing the heavy lifting when it comes to doing our heavy lifting for the very freedoms you mention?

Design a system around that and then maybe you will understand. We all can sacrifice just a liitle to insure some fossil fuels for important things and our kids future.

Go to the the funeral of a friend's son who died in Ramadi then top it off by going to another friends son's funeral who died training for Iraq. Hug your neighbor's son who left last week for Anbar. Then take into consideration the four years my son put in the Marines in Kuwait and Iraq. Today he is at Fort McCoy as an Army drill instructor recertifying for his week as Drill Seargent starting next week at Fort Benning.

Many take for granted what these young men and women do for us and show appreciation by arguing against conservation and plain common sense. Yes your free to choose and waste. At least take the damn time to help those who maintain those freedoms!

IF you have a problem sacrificing a few dollars (or jobs) that is indeed your right. But you had better bark up another tree if yiu think I and others don't have a right to suggest or promote conservation!

Once again where are the e-mail addresses of those who claim I am socialist or tree hugger. Contact me direct you don't have to post it on line! Where are the backbones?

Proud father and supporter of our country and those who sacrifice!

Rich Kontny

Rod Kotiga

You did what !

You cut down a tree !!! And then you posted it !! What were you thinking !!! Couldn't you have moved your septic system or moved your house or sold it!! Here comes another 57 replies It's not usually like this Jerry, just keep asking the questions and most of us will answer.

Be good, Rod

Unknown

thanks rich

Some may feel that a discussion of btu's, loop lengths, and tubing diameters was hijacked by a political agenda. Maybe so, and maybe thats a good thing. We can talk btu's any-day but how often does this intersect directly with the things that really mater to us ?

Personally don't think the connections between snow melt and resource conflicts are so abstract, the actual impact of snow melt is not important. It is the symbolic significance of such extravagance that brings this indignation

Ignorance and indifference is chilling. Snow melt may be an insignificant aspect of our national energy flow. But in it's wanton disregard for what makes sense, it has come to (for some of us)represent what is wrong with this country, Looking back on this period It will be understandable that an affluent society chose to eat more meat than it should have, that rich people melted the snow off their driveways will seem absurd.

Rich I'm sorry for your losses, thanks for your dignity and courage in connecting the dots.

Didn't ME start this? and unprovoked this time, a sort of preemptive strike of sorts guess.

troy_8

Bob

I totally respect that you chose not to perform any job for any reason. What got me hot was the attack on a legitimate question about a legitimate job. I would have felt like some immoral turd. He was told the only reason to even consider such a job was for $$$$. And he was basically raping all our natural resources. That was the reason for me jumping into this thread. I keep trying to get out but I'm personally attacked and I won't back down from a good fight. How anyone can determine they are more environmentally concerned simply by my statement that banning snowmelt is wrong. That is very presumptuous. And may I say Elitist. That should get the big govt. types boiling. Sorry I couldn't help myself.

troy_8

Thanx Rob

My emails no secret.

troy_8

Wrong,Wrong And again Wrong

Rich. I lived through gas rationing of the 70s. Oh that was your favorite pres. Right? Using your logic-judging by your name you have a trust fund? Am i right?

troy_8

Rich

You can really get under my skin. My son is a reservist. Before you ask- No he was to be in Kuwait Aug. of 06 but he was diagnosed with cancer. Now that he is in remission he will probably go his fall. By the way- he calls himself a Liberatarian=Less Government. He volunteered to defend your free speech. I agree with free speech and free market but nice try. I don't want to limit your views, I applaude them. And your efforts to educate. However I can't back you up when it comes to you dictating my morality. Or calling me less concerned. You my friend need way more info before you have an argument. Peace.

Rich Kontny_3

Troy

Who called who a Socialist ??? I think I deserve a right to respond to that and I guess you just don't get the connection of applicatons using fossil fuels foolishly because obviously you are not an easy teach.

Snowmelt Away! Buy a Hummer as a service truck! I truly feel you have shown your true colors regarding conservation and I find it laughable!

This thread is over for me it has gone beyond common sense!

jp_2

hey rich

I find it funny how many libs hate Rush. wonder why?

I find the lib radio pretty comical, washed up actors and good old micheal moore.

Doug_7

Original Purpose of This Thread

The Original Purpose of This Thread was to help Jerry with some information on Snow Melting systems.

Attached is an old ASHRAE document on Snow Melting systems. You don't have to understand the math, but Table 3 shows how much energy is used for actually melting snow and how much is used while Idling with a dry slab waiting for it to snow. It covers 46 US cities because energy use varies with the weather.

The interesting thing to note is that as little a 5% of the energy is used for actually melting snow and as much as 95% is used while the system is Idling with a dry slab waiting for it to snow,

This is why snow melting controls pay off - by saving energy and money if you don't need instant melting. You don't have to leave the system idling waiting for it to snow. You can save 95% of the energy that would otherwise be required.

Don't be deceived by the lowball cost calculation at the bottom of Table 3. This calculation ignores the cost of Idling which is 95% of the operating cost and assumes the boiler is 100% efficient, which it isn't. It was also done using 1999 gas prices - which are at least double today and may double again in the future.

This 1999 ASHRAE document is freely available on the Internet.

Doug

Rod Kotiga

Idiling snowmelts

Idiling snowmelts are a HUGE waste of fuel. Never saw the need for that in a residential application, but then again I haven't seen or heard it all. Maybe if I lived next to hot springs then what the hey ?

Rod

Paul Rohrs_7

Lawsuit

Anyone ever slip and fall on an icy driveway or sidewalk?

Are lawyers trained to handle these types of cases?

The installed cost of a snowmelt system with proper controls with normal operating costs are peanuts compared to the TOTAL cost of lawsuits and verdicts that reward the plaintiff large sums of money.

I will install snowmelt systems all day long. Lord knows I need the work.

Paul

[Deleted User]

Bottom line for Jerry L...

Jerry, As others have pointed out, concrete is really the best heat transfer media.

Use a minimum of 1" XPS foam beneath the slab.

Run 5/8" diameter tube at 9" O.C.

We use the FLAT 6X6 welded wire mesh to tie to. Keep your loops at less than 250' in length.

We use 150 btu/sq foot per hour NET for sizing the boiler.

Use a good snowmlet controller, i.e. Tekmar 600 series.

Also provide a twist timer (12 hour variety) to allow the homeowner to preheat the slab for fast moving hard hitting storms.

ALso, install another 12 hour twist timer and a relay to allow them the ability to turn the system off for those fast moving, small dumping snow storms that don't warrant firing the system for.

Consider offering an option of a GSHP to preheat their hot water during periods of time that the slab and the OSA is above 50 degrees F. I am positive that the system will deliver more energy than it uses for snowmelt.

The only other consideration I would make is that the aluminum boiler does require some rather expensive glycol. Either consider the use of a flat plate heat exchanger to isolate the 2 fluids, or another boiler that does not require AL safe glycol.

Sorry this post seems to have slipped the hydronic bonds and turned into an environmental disaster....

Snowmelt system properly done have the possibility of producing more energy than they consume. Some people just have closed minds and are set in their ways. THere are two ways to do it in their minds eye. The WRONG way, and THEIR way. Think outside their box.

With that said, I too am done with this thread.

ME

Rob Blair

Thanks Paul.

Rob

steveex

Looks like were back where we started. enjoyed all the posts.

Unknown

Paul why not reform our litigious culture, this is such a drain on our nation, I agree, a much bigger waste of "energy" than snow melt.

This culture needs start making better choices. go ahead and install away if this is what you need to do, but I'd stay clear of promoting, except special cases.

Rob Blair

Well I guess I should remove the big "Snowmelt" words from the side of my truck and van!!

Rob

Rich Kontny_3

Rich Kontny_3

Subject Matter

As a graduate of the "Sigrid Olsen Institute of Envionmental Studies" I have read this forum for energy related knowledge and ideas.First time to post.

I wish the responses here vould have been greener and more avare of vasteful practices. When we cleaned up the vater with the "Clean Vater Act" it resulted in more jobs with more opportuities. The "Green Movement" vill do the same.

Many are either to stubborn to change or afraid of it. It is happening anyway for sure. Many left Sweden in the 1850s due to lack of fuel even wood. Now my homeland is an energy leader with very high standard of living.

Vell I guess it boils down to who are part of the solution and who are part of the problem.

The former makes great sense to me. Vhy is this so hard.


Lars of Minneapolis

Doug_7

Thanks Lars

Thanks for posting. Agree 100%.

In America we are missing huge economic and environmental opportunities.

The people that post on this site have the opportunity to be leaders in the new environmental economy. Many are. Some are but don't yet realize the size of the opportunity. Some are just starting to realize that the world has already changed. China is looking to Europe for environmental solutions.

I read as much as I can on what is going on in Sweden and Denmark. Very helpful. Canada is the largest importer of pelletized wood to Sweden, but we don't use much of it ourselves - go figure.

Doug