Snow melt

steveex

cement is the best conductor, 11/2 dow blue board polystyrene for insulation. Keep your circuts as short as you can. For a low cost and dependable switch look into ETI simple snow switch model LCD-1. Personaly i like Raypak bronze header modulating units, good luck.

Jerry L

Snow melt

I'm about to embark on a first time snow melt project. I'm looking for information to get started, i.e. best heat transfer? asphalt, concrete, or maybe stone pavers? Insulating products beneath the tubing? I'm going to install a dedicated boiler in the the garage (Buderus GB142)and my local rep.said he will draw up what will be needed. I'm looking for any advise on do's and don'ts from anyone experienced in the installation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Rod Kotiga

Concrete first, pavers second and asphalt last. Keep your mains as short as you can unless you have a long skinny driveway. No more than 12" on center with 3/4 " tubing and 9" on center with 1/2". Insulate the supply and return mains. Use a 10 gauge wire mesh with 6"x6" squares so you have lots of places to ty tubing too and it's easy to lay those 21'x7' ft sheets or cut them to fit than rebar will ever be with some small bolt cutters. If it's concrete than you wont need more than a 130 degree water/glycol temp maybe 10 more degrees for pavers and asphalt but never go more than 150. If your the type that want's to tell your system when to come instead of a snow/ice sensor coming on for a half inch skiff that fires up the whole system than a 12 hr crank timer works great and it shuts itself off. Not sure where you live but 40% of glycol should be enough. Also make sure you have 125 btu's per square ft of melt. You do not want to be light there. Make sure the insulation you use can handle a car driving over it for life. You don't want two nice depressions where the tires drive over the snow melt every day. Figure 2 gallons per loop to size your mains and pump. 200 to 250 on 1/2 inch and 300 to 350 on 3/4 inch loop lengths. We like 3/4 for are bigger melts and we split up a 1000 ft roll into 333's. Remember this more than anything, INSULATION IS A MUST !! or your going to be heating more earth and expect the slab to take a while longer to heat up and you'll have to figure for a boiler that's at least 20 percent bigger. If asphalt then 9" ctrs no matter what. There, Iv'e just explained to the world all of my past screw ups for free. Ahh the school of hard knocks. I'm glad those days are behind me, in snowmelts anyways. Now I can sleep.

Rod

Rich Kontny_3

My Advice

If this snowmelt is for parking your Hummer on then disregard these comments. However, if you have any awareness about the looming fossil fuel shortage then I would strongly recommending hiring some youth to shovel your drive and save your money.

Snowmelts other than for emergency applications or safety (such as emergency room driveways, heliopads etc) should not at this time even be considered. Gasoline at near record levels, fuel oil at record highs, diesel out of site, natural gas continuing to rise. Have I made a point?

Many do this sort of install for two reasons because they can if they are the homeowner or because of the $$$$$$ if you are the contractor!

Do not even attempt to call yourself an energy conscience homeowner or contractor if you promote or install these systems. It is hypocrisy re-defined!

I would rather see those who have such affluency use the off peak electric type heat source. Power plants waste this energy anyway in there cooling ponds or towers.

The only exception I am comfortable with is a solar or waste heat type systems as a heat source.

Those who know me here, know that two young men who were sons of good friends lost their lives this past year fighting in the present oil war in the Mideast.

Can we be that oblivious for the need to conserve, conserve and conserve.What kind of future is there for our kids or their kids if we continue to recklessly manage our finite fossil fuel resources?


Go ahead and do one but keep in mind that this is one of those classic cases of not seeing the trees because of the forest!

Rich K.

Rob Blair

So when we turn them down and they go to the next contractor, how is that helping me out? I have to make a living and if it is installing snowmelt, so be it. I still drive my XB and my minivan for work most of the time, turn off the lights when possible, and keep the thermostat at 68 or less year round, but I am not going to turn down work (especially during these hard times) on the principle that I am ruining the environment.

Rob

Jerry L

Thanks

Thanks to all for your responses. I sort of got most of what I was looking for....your mistakes so I don't have to make them....For the energy conscious minded, as a contractor, I too need to make a living. I always do offer the most efficient way to heat and this project I'm taking on is for a good friend who is elderly on maybe a 50'x30' steep pitched driveway that turns to ice after every plowed storm from run off. Connecticut is the snow/ice line capitol of New England...Dealing with pure snow would be a breeze.

Ron Huber_2

snowmelt and the environment

Some of my current jobs are in the $220,000 to $283,000 range, and none of them have snow melt. Refuse to do it. Emergency Room drive ups, elderly housing sidewalks, helipads for hospitals, O.K. . But dumping all that carbon into the atmosphere to melt snow for residential, give me a break. Sorry that you need the work that bad. I had 5 kids when times were not always that good, maybe I would feel different if I was still in that situation.

Rich Kontny_3

So....

For the sake of profit two or more wrongs make a right?

I lived thru the early eighties when we had a strong enough government who outlawed gas fireplaces,gas yard lights and yes snowmelt systems. We also did a great deal of the foundation for today's energy efficient heating devices back then.

Why are Hummers getting smaller? Why are hybrids and flex fuel cars selling better? Why are we talking about and getting technology from Europe and Asia? Could it be that they have had high fuel costs since the end of World War II?

We have almost two generations of extreme over consumption in the USA and you are telling me it is OK? We have used the stock market as our nation's health barometer instead of a quality of life index.

Now we are paying the price big time and young men and women are doing their part to serve our country. Your worried about sacrificing a job to your competitor?

Shallow thinking without regard for the future. This is the end of earth week and I can see that the only "green movement" some truly understand is the stuff that goes in and out of the bank!

If so inclined I would recommend reading "The European Dream" by an American (Jeremy Rivkin) then you might realize the way co-operative mandates are shaping powerful and wise alliances.

I do not mean to sound harsh here, however all of us are in for a major reality check about the way we over consume.

A recent article about wood gasification by Hot Rod in one of his monthly columns addresses how the Europeans have improved wood burning to extract more energy while burning cleaner.

Of course there is reluctance to this as the USA has up to this point enjoyed what seemed like unlimited natural resources. Unfortunately we have followed suit by consuming them accordingly!

Enjoy the last day of Earth Week started over 25 years ago by non other than Gaylord Nelson from here in Wisconsin.

P.S. Think I will hug a tree on my way home tonite!

Rich Kontny_3

Ron,

Now were making sense!

Rich K.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Rich is right

If they call me I won't install snowmelt either. If they hit a few guys trying to talk them out of it, maybe we will change their minds. If they are willing to spend big bucks on a snowmelt system, why not install a large solar heating system instead. We have to make solar cool. Instead of telling their rich friends that they spent $100,000 on a snowmelt job, can't we get them to spend the money on renewable energy, and have them brag to their friends about that? Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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WV EGBERT_2

Ahh, the snowmelt ain't green debate lives on..

Well snowmelt is just another way mankind makes use, and attempts to control his (or hers) immediate environment.
We ALL try to manipulate our surroundings in many different ways. Some are "greener" than others, but then again that too is subjective.

Think of it this way, in some countries taking a hot shower everyday seems like such a waste. I remember a trip I took to South America, after a week of the wet, lather , and then rinse in two minutes or less shower dance, I wanted nothing more than to hop on the first flight back to the States to burn up some btu's steaming up my bathroom.

As for turning away work, to the naysayers I'll comment that a 1500 square foot house is much "greener" than a 5000 square foot house, you mean to tell me you won't accept that work?

I don't even buy the shovel method only argument, I don't know about you but I need energy to shovel the drive. I usually get my energy in the form of complex carbohydrates derivied from food. Well, mostly likely that food consumed a good deal of fossil fuels between farming and transportation, not to mention water, supermarket energy consumption, my jumping in the car to travel to the supermarket etc.. see, its all subjective. : )




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jp_2

Hmmm

looks like 2000 food calories equal 8,000 btu's?

I could shovel for several hours on 2000 cal. how many sq ft could 8,000 btu melt?

WV EGBERT_2

Bananas

How much energy was consumed to produce 2000 calories for 8000 btus?

How about this tidbit, the average American will eat an average of 5,067 bananas in his lifetime. Those bananas will have traveled 11,000,000 air miles.




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jp_2

so?

they ship them bananas one at a time?

guess I have a hard time seeing your point, you seem to suggest the snowmelts are the most efficiency means of removing snow?

i understand a freight train can move a ton of freight about 400 miles on a gallon of diesel.

Doug_7

Operating Cost of Snow Melting

Lots of good points on the energy cost of these systems, which I agree with.

I will give you a perspective on the annual operating cost of a snow melting system and the value of proper controls.

Condominiums often have driveway snow melting systems on the vehicle ramp from street level to the underground parking. I have visited several condos to see what they are actually doing.

Two condos had strictly manual controls - you turn it ON in the fall and OFF in the spring (if you remember). They heat the driveway 24/7 all winter long to above freezing, whether it needs it or not.

A third condo had proper tekmar controls but they preferred to heat the driveway 24/7 all winter long to above freezing, whether it needs it or not.

This way, the falling snow melts on contact.

Our condo has proper tekmar controls, and we leave it on melting control using the snow/ice detector, so it only heats the driveway when it actually snows and shuts off the heating when it stops snowing.

I did some operating cost calculations and had Unipor check and refine them.

To make a long story short:

1) If you leave the driveway heating all winter long, it is going to cost you $6,000 - $8,000 per year in gas costs.

2) If you only heat the driveway when it actually snows, it is going to cost you about $1,350 per year in gas costs. (This is my actual average cost over 5 years - not calculated - measured by boiler firing hours)

This was all calculated using $10 / MMBtu gas.

The largest part of the annual operating cost, is the cost of heating a dry concrete slab to maintain it above 32 *F all winter long.

This is for a 1,500 sq ft slab in Edmonton Alberta (9,300 degree days).

So if you must do driveway melting, you need to install and use proper snow melting controls. Also a great application for a condensing boiler.

Doug

Rob Blair

Good point Doug! Controls are a must!



And my question to Rich would be: what would it cost (to the world and environment) if everytime it snowed you called a company to pay two men to drive out there in a 3/4 ton truck, weighted down with salt and calcium and snowplow, to which they either drop the plow and then throw salt, or just throw salt? Remember that the salt runoff is polluting the environment.

Also, you tell me how easy it is to find any "YOUTHS" that want to do any hard work nowadays!

Rob

[Deleted User]

So....

Now that I've been turned upside down and dropped on my head for not being an energy consicencious person, let me ask you this. If my snowmelt systems could (and can) produce more energy (solar) for the heating of DHW than it consumes during the winter snowmelt season, am I still a bad guy for keeping the food on the table of 9 other employees?

Funny how certain people can come off as holyier than thou when they want to jump on the green band wagon, and continue to chastise those who do decide to jump on said band wagon.

I do not want to start a political thread here, but I do not believe we are in Iraq strictly beacuse of oil. And yes the loss of lives is very unfortunate, but it is being done to protect our and other peoples freedoms. Not to preserve oil as some would like to believe.

Interesting indeed...

ME

WV EGBERT_2

My point it is not black and white, and gets real murky . And to say or outwright refuse a snowmelt job is silly.

The human footprint is vast, and everything we do effects something one way or the other.

Or we can just wait til Spring

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Doug_7

Snow Removal - Don't get a Hotfoot

We do hire two youths to clear the snow from the sidewaks by shovel or blower. This is typical of condominiums

The sidewalks are not heated and not a lot of houses have heated driveways. These all have to be shoveled or blown.

Our public sidewalks must be cleared after each snowfall - there is a snow /ice removal bylaw. This is the property owners responsibility.

The same two guys could also clear the driveway as well as the sidewalks. What would the additional cost be, to clear the driveway in $ per year - you tell me ?

A funny but sad story on one of the condos I visited. The contractor connected the driveway melting system to a 160*F glycol supply header (used for heating the swimming pool through an exchanger) and installed a driveway glycol recirculation pump and a return line to the glycol return header. No controls - not even temperature measurement - just ball valves and a pump ON switch.

The contractor turned on the driveway melting system walked away. Melted the driveway great but a terrible waste of energy. An owner found this problem out a year later when their dog yelped and ran away when it walked on the driveway in the summertime. Got a real hotfoot.

The driveway heating system was left ON all year around. Operating cost probably over $20,000 per year. Contractor stupidity level 100%.

But Hey - the installed cost was cheap !! Saved all that money on fancy controls.

I gave the condo the design for proper snow melting controls and explained the cost savings to them. This was going in as part of a legal claim against the contractor.

Doug

Rich Kontny_3

Singh and Rob

You don't just expend when you hand shovel you gain (exercise and fresh air) Rob did you ever hear of the neighborhood youth labor force? (youth) This is a simple choice why complicate it with meaningless comparisons?

As far as the little old lady and steep driveway why not do a payback and operational comparison versus hiring someone to shovel and de-ice? Now factor in the fossil fuel costs on an annual basis. You could probaly hand shovel a good portion of the New Jersey turnpike if you are truly honest about comparisons.

Sounds like "the snowmelt money pit system to me!

My Grandmother was eighty seven and still shoveled her walks and driveway in Ashland, WI (on the shores of Gitchee Gumee) Lake Superior. Adjacent to the UPs big snow country. 200 plus inches of snow annually!

Maybe I am just not citified enough (my mistake)

Rob Blair

Sorry Rich. I should have figured it out that you are right and I am wrong, I hear it enough from my wife, I should be used to it by now!

Rob

Rich Kontny_3

Rob and others

I am very passionate about several issues (you can tell by the words misspelled in my last text) One is energy waste and over consumption (something we all pay for) the basic supply/demand thing economically and the environmental aspect of it as we become more aware.

The other is the old flat-rate issue which I am now comfortable with (if it is used with reason,ethically and without deception)

Other than that little pushes my buttons. I assume you love your wife like I love mine so I can take that as a compliment! (Or did I denote a little sarcasm there? )

WV EGBERT_2

Rich

I understand your passion. And believe me I'm just as passionate about our impact on the natural world.

As a practice, I make a conscience choice to not eat or consume small amounts of certain food products that have a greater impact, and consume large amounts of energy for very little food value, such as beef.
I don't consider it a meaningless comparison.
The total amount of snowmelt systems out there is small, but if we all can change our diets and habits we can do more good.

I for one will not turn away work , that I'm interested in being a part of. Although I do turn away AC work once in awhile, for many reasons, one of them I believe is that it is to wasteful for my three week cooling season.
But when someone comes here to ask for help, be it snowmelt or cooling, we should try to help, and not judge.

Devan

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troy_8

Preaching

Singh: I agree with you. I wouldn't turn down a snowmelt job. Personally I am getting REAL tired of the holier than thoughs wanting to tell everybody else how to live. I wish we all would try to be more earth friendly and we all can. I have done three snowmelt jobs for seriously debilitated wheelchair bound customers. They panic if the snow isn't melting as fast is it is coming down. They cannot exit their homes without it. For me to decide this is frivolous is crazy. It isn't our job as trades people what makes sense for our customers. You may not know the whole story. They may not want to tell you why. Hearing Al Gore tell me what I should drive as he lives like a king and flys the world in a private jet is a little troubling to me. Be careful not to get to judgemental. After all, most of our work would be considered extravagant in other part of the world. How do you decide what is over the top for your customers? You might want to take care of yourself and let others do the same. Lead by example. Just a suggestion.

Rob Blair

Just a little sarcasm. And BTW: God Bless Your Mother!!

Rob

Plumbob_3

Interesting thread.

I live in what is now deemed a resort town. {Was a small town with meager income until movie stars and ceo's found it and "saved us"} The hypocrisy blows my freakin mind.I don't really have anything constructive to add to this thread but I would like to vent on some jobs that I have seen and been a part of.

1 The ski resort in town,it's not just the snowmelt systems up there......there are ROADS with snowmelt systems in them because realestate is to expensive to pile snow on.

2 I am doing a project now that the homeowner has requested solar for DHW. When I explained to the contractor about sizing the panels he said" They don't care if it works they want to make a political statement" The same job they spec 240 gal. hot water. 285,000 boiler, 120gal indirect w/120 gal storage so thier guests never run out! This is a "camp" for thier friends and family.

3 A job I am completing {plumbing} had snowmelt installed on a relativly short driveway. I asked the contractor what the system cost to operate over the winter during construction. His reply was about $1'000 per month. When I asked what the HO thought the contractor said he loved it. That is as much as my mortgage. The same HO was bragging about the fuel effciency of his car, and how disgusting it was to see all the gas hogs on the road.

4 A large percentage of the homes I do every year are second or third homes that sit empty for long periods of time heating and cooling while they are empty. What a waste.

I could go on but I won't. This has been somewhat therapeutic, as I said there would be nothing constructive just some venting.

nicholas bonham-carter

a modest proposal

what about a "green" compromise here?
years ago the state of colorado installed some geothermal ice melt systems on high mountain roads [they called them heat pipes] were they ever effective?
what about a ground loop supplying 40 degree liquid to the driveway with heat applied only when badly needed.
the most important benefit would be prevension of freezing the ice to the concrete making easier for those kids to shovel.
what happens anyway when the melting snow runs down to the street--does it cause an even bigger problem??--nbc

Rich Kontny_3

Holier

Hardly holier than anyone maybe just a little more aware and willing to stand up for my principles. Sorry if I rub salt in wounds it is inevitable.Us elders are suposed to be teachers and role models.

Remember the part above about using fossil fuels, I have no problem with solar, groundsource or waste heat such as power plant steam etc.

You guys are great you must know by now that I like to stir things up every now and then!

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Rich is right

Again. Maybe instead of holier than thou, it should be greener than thou. My customers pay me to make decisions for them, with the price of crude oil up 80% in one year, heating a drive way dosen't seem to make much sense. And I'm not talking about handicapped ramps or heavily traveled sidewalks like restaurants and hospitals, I'm talking about the rich guys that just want to tell their friends that they spent big bucks, just to heat their driveway. There is a Lawyer in the Boston area that spent over a million on his snowmelt system, just to rub it in peoples faces. I met a couple from Germany years ago in Florida, and they wanted me to ship them a Jacuzzi tub because they couldn't get them over there, my supply store tried, but customs wouldn't allow it because they waste energy and water. We have to do our part and stop heating driveways. With diminishing oil supplies and the environmental impacts of burning fossil fuels, I think we have to take another look at the Plumbers slogan, "The Plumber Protects the Health of the Nation"

Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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troy_8

Socialism Lives

YES-It's for the good of all that I decide for YOU! Cause I'm sooo much smarter. WOW! Or "Its For The children". When I hear these buzz words(phrases) my hair stands up. Beware of those who are deciding for you. That's my motto. I still remember Bill Clinton saying to a crowd in Buffalo-" We would give you a tax refund but we don't know if you will spend it responsibly" I have no issue with anyone not doing any kind of work for any reason. That is up to you. But Don't tell me how much better than me you are cause You care. Or even that you are greener than I because you are selective on what your customers get. Give me a break. Sorry seems a little false. What do you do in your day to be more green than yesterday? That's the question I have. Wake Up America!

Doug_7

Socialism or Environmental Responsibility ?

Troy - It isn't called Socialism - it is called Environmental Responsibility.

Wake up America indeed. The lack of Environmental Responsibility is an embarrassment around the world and it is destroying the planet.

Europe is so far ahead on reducing their use of fossil fuels compared to America that it is an embarrassment. America is still in an advanced state of denial.

Defending your right to waste energy and criticizing people that point out the most obvious and flagrant wastes of energy is counter-productive, and positions you as you part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

So enlighten us - Tell us what do you do every day to be more green ?

Joannie_15

Socialism

A government telling someone they can't put a jacuzzi tub in because it's wasteful is socialism, regardless of whether it's good for the earth or not.

Doug_7

Socialism

Nice that you have a convenient brand for government regulations that you do not like.

What do you think the price of gasoline and heating oil will be when crude oil hits $225 a barrel ? Oil production is at it's peak, existing oil fields are being depleted and we are finding only one new barrel of oil for every four we use.

Personally I believe that some reasonable government regulations will necessary in the area of reducing the use of fossil fuels. If that makes me a socialist - so be it.

Maybe we can still get something useful out of this thread. People that post on this site have a unique opportunity to contribute to a more energy-efficient economy.

So tell us what you do to reduce the use of fossil fuels ?

Don \"Grumpy\" Walsh

Whoa Nellie!

Where do you find these "youths" that are willing to do manual labor? In my neighborhood, the little tykes are driving Beemer 645 CI's to high school,and the hardest part of their day is having to deal with an impertinent ATM machine.

Yepper, give me a half dozen of those $90K snow melt jobs each year, and I can assure you I personally will be saving tons of fossil fuel for the rest of mankind, as I will be on the golf course in sunny Florida all winter.

Doug_7

Snow removal

We actually hire them. They snow-blow and shovel the snow from our sidewalks. Hard to believe but it happens. They are well paid.

As mentioned in my earlier post, the public and private sidewalks are not heated and not a lot of houses have heated driveways. These all have to be shoveled, scraped or blown.

Our public sidewalks must be cleared after each snowfall - there is a snow /ice removal bylaw. This is the property owners responsibility. We do the most economical way we can.

troy_8

Responsibility

OK. I'll bite- What size home should we limited to? sq. foot per occupant? how many showers a week? I lived in Japan in a house with no central heat. Went to a school with no central heat. It wasn't that intolerable but I bet that it will be a hard pill to swallow if the schools turned off their heat and or cooling. You want to call me the problem. I agree that drastic change is coming. I am trying to do my part. I don't see change coming from the Gore types who feel that change is your responsibility but they are just too important to participate. Show me don't tell me. Make it fashionable to live small not mandatory. The problem is- who decides? Being green can be very tricky. You have to calculate the total impact. It isn't always as it seems.

Rich Kontny_3

Troy

Calm down you are just re-inforcing what I and others already know. Your name tells me you probaly between 25-35 ??? You make tough statements but no e-mail address or way to contact you.My guess is your a Rush Limbaugh fan and maybe a victim of his brainwashing.

It is not called socialism Troy it is called realism! We have to act accordingly. You most likely have never been thru a slowdown or fuel crisis and you are probaly basing your assumptions on inaccurate info. Call the others and me old, socialists or whatever, that is your right yet you look a little more foolish and out of touch with ever post!

Rich K.


P.S. Timothy is a cute name with no e-mail address also!

Rich Kontny_3

Here

We live in a market driven economy that through the old supply and demand process will dictate size etc based on economic status. Other countries such as many EU countries have a more quality of life for everyone attitude.

Right now it is countries like US (that have high maintenance) who suffer the most because we have not tightened our belts in over 20 plus years.This is just the start Troy, I hope you took notes while in Japan they too are far ahead of us in energy conservation and thinking about the future!!

troy_8

Excess

I'm not at all defending excess. Just the freedom to excess. The more I work in McMansions the more my future home plans shrink. I need very little space to be comfortable. I don't even like these huge houses. They are fun to engineer and install but i don't envy the occupants at all. I just designed a retirement house in the woods that doesn't even have a tv planned. They are still building it themselves after two years living with just an outhouse. These are the people I admire. But to tell the populous this is what you should do cause I say so. That's not for me to decide. And when you decide for me you better also ban guns. Excess will dry up on it's own. That is the beauty of a free market. As energy prices rise sizes will shrink and the snowmelt jobs that I proudly installed as efficiently as I knew how will probably not be used much.

Rod Kotiga

Snowmelt

39 posts later and Jerry has two people who helped with the do's and don'ts of installing a snowmelt system. I'm with Don. How about I install them, the owner pays me and I'll put a lock on the gas line. There, problem solved. Next topic

Rod K

Rob Blair

Here is troys email address rich

LVGHEAT@verizon.net

Rob