open radiant systems

gww

Erick,

You state: "The cost of a simple 35k-75k heat exchanger, and pump that can be wired parrallel with the existing pump, a few fittings and an extra 30-40 min versus risking the lives and health of the occupants does not make Cents."

< Am I reading & understanding this correctly? Are you trying to lower, not raise the bar on the hydronic/radiant heating industry? I'm confused. Are you, or the company you represent/work with still a member of the RPA that Larry Drake has yet to figure out how to exclude? If so. it confirms who your identity is and what company you're with. Hint: it begins with an R.

I (as well as others) wish you wouldn't have to hide your identity here, or anywhere elce for that matter, but if I were selling & installing open systems and were steadfast in my solomn beliefs (wrong or not) I'd stick to my guns untill proven otherwise. For this: I respect your argument(s)however, I'd advise you to walk away with your tail between your legs at this point my cyber selling inexpensive radiant system friend.

Is your competion that cheap; that you have needed to lower your prices in order to feed your family? Mercy me. At what cost? Shame on the seller/contractor who puts himself above the rules of common decency.

EJ hoffman

'zene product

the 'zene product did not appear in every home of the 8plex condo I don't think there was a definite culprit for the entry point into the system though it did concentrate in the storage water heater. I believe the initial entry was in the coldwater as levels of the product were found there also.

EJ hoffman

design

I think you made a point for my arguement, you can design around things especially in certain geographical areas so why should everyone be subject to one code. We have code written for certain geographical areas, why is it so important to ban entire options for areas that could benefit from certain things such as a water heater as a heat source, instead of only boilers as many here have posted. Code should be design for the system.

EJ hoffman

house size

I did a house that was 800 square feet 400 main floor 400 upper floor. The home owner wanted radiant for the lack of allergens that scorched air blows around, but we still had to fight for the 4x4 wall space we used, cost was also very tight

Dekstrous

I think I wam going to change my name for future comments on the wall, or go back to just a avid reader again, I am not the same erik that is for open loop systems, look at the email addresses when posting. Perhaps I was not clear. What does not make cents (Pun intended)in my mind is that the cost for a single wall heat exchanger (where code allows) and some other small expenses, given the opportunity most end users, our customers, would choose to error on the safe side and WANT a closed loop system. I at ONE TIME believed, and thankfully NEVER installed, an open loop system when designed correctly was safe. Thanks to the WALL and the internet I learned otherwise, and have sold many closed systems over my open loop competition because of it. Case in point I went to a home on a service call No Heat. Its a simple problem bad relay on the wall. I didnt fix it. I explained to the customer about the concerns I had with how her water heater was Piped into the heating system. She then went on to explain her current health problems. She had the system converted very shortly after. She was not aware that the heating system could be making her sick. Neither were her doctors. She just was a sickly woman. Was it the water heater I dont know. Did she have alot of the same symptoms. Yes. How many systems are out there, going undiagnosed and causing health issues I dont know. I know I dont want one of them to ever be mine.

As for water heaters as a heat source I think they have their place. In small 1300 sqft or less projects or garage heating with low loads. But ONLY with a heat exchanger to isolate the heat source as a closed loop or not suppply water to domestic and do a radiant Heat Only application closed loop .

Unknown

wow, and you can't fit a plate HE in a 4x4 space??? we routinely custom fab these type of systems in spaces that size. call us up if you need help.

How about you answer the important question; at what point do you finally decide that all of these added risks, even if they are each individually small, results in a HE just being good practice?

How many of these events are you just going to blow off as aberrations, and not even accept the reality that insurance covers the stuff you DIDN'T see coming, and there are a lot more of those things on open systems than on closed systems?

Seriously; what's your watermark here? Or are you just going to keep saying "it never happens to me"? Cause last I knew, that was not responsible design. I've never had a boiler melt down in a basement either, but I still think pressure relief valves are probably a pretty good idea.

EJ hoffman

watermark

I will get you test results of the water from these systems. I don't have any stagnant water in my systems, my water temps rarely go above 90 and my heat sources are set at 160.

zeke

OK,let's say you have an argument for the spawning of Legionella somewhere in the "open" system. If I set my HWH to 140, then where is the threat of spraying out the bacteria in the mist of a shower.
By my reasoning, any of the offending bacteria would be killed in passing thru the HWH.
What am I missing?

Chap

contact time missing

You've forgotten, or perhaps don't know, that at 140F there is a required contact time of 20-minutes to kill off MOST (not all) of, and this is important, FREE ROAMING bacteria. You won't touch the embedded bugs and you don't kill all of the free-roaming bugs.

Will there ever be a time when someone is utilizing a bathing module while your bacteria-laden water is energized to colonize/recolonize the tank? Of course there will and when that happens, the tank's storage temp will often be below that 140F and some of the infected water gets a free pass right on through to the distribution network of piping.

Scalding is an issue too. ANSI regs governing water heaters permit that setting for 140F to be as high as 170F and still be in compliance. At 160F as noted above, that's a 190F limit! You'd best be utilizing a certified ASSE scald-guard mixing valve, properly set & adjusted as indicated in the attached warning tag, and ASSE 1016 certified scald-guard faucets at all points of use.

Confused? No need to be. Dave Yates produced a 28-minute DVD on these subjects for Watts and it is available for free by visiting Watts' web site and clicking on the link. From what I've read in this thread, a few of you should seriously consider getting educated or getting out of this business due to the dangers your ignorance is creating for your customers.

jrc

I will repeat my complaint, since no one wants to address it. The title of this thread is Open Systems not Domestic Water Heaters. The problems described occur in warm stagnant water and that exists in nearly every house without a tankless heater yet there seems to be no condemnation of tank heater manufacturers, only people using open systems for space heat.

In so doing many people with extremely low incomes (with more chance of dying from the cold than legionella) are denied the oppurtunity of using an open system for effective and economic heat.

Again I also ask about frequency. Each one of you leaves for work in a vehicle subject to deadly collision. I walk and use an open system to heat my house. I very seriously ask whose life is at greater risk?

Just to shake up you guys with the cigarettes and mercury--every morning for the past 15 years I have used a neti pot to flush my nose--with warm tap water. I am 70 years old.

Andrew Hagen_2

Instantaneous for Space Heating

Space heating is a misapplication of instantaneous water heaters. I would rather see a standard tank-type water heater misapplied as a stand-alone closed-system heating appliance than an instantaneous used in an open system. There are proper applications for instantaneous water heaters, and I believe those applications are rare in residential situations. That goes for dhw production as well as space heating. Imagine the stress these high-input instantaneous water heaters place on natural gas distribution systems. And for what? Most people I have talked to want instantaneous water heaters not because they have a need for one but because they think they are somehow better or more modern than a tank. If we're looking to get cheap here, why not just use a tank-type water heater? This whole thread is about short cuts...those willing to take them, and those who are not. Proper design does not have to be ignored in order to build an inexpensive heating system.

Dr. Kvorkian

you need

a check up from the neck up!

[Deleted User]

JRC...

I'll try and answer your questions as best I can. THe bacterium responsible for legionella is omni present. It is everywhere. In the dirt, in the water. Under certain ideal conditions, it will flourish and multiply. Eveyone is exposed to legionella who drinks water. IT's not the drinking of swallowing of legionella that causes problems, its the inhaling of the bacteria in an aersolized form that causes bacterial pneumonia.

In my case, my immune system was compormised by being exposed to a bunch of hackers, sneezers and splooters on an airplane trip (both directions). There was enough of a bacterial culture in my water heater, that when I tried to take a "hot steamy shower" to break up the chest congestion I was feeling, I inhaled the bacteria. I felt sick within an hour of exposure. I originally thought it was the flu.

It is virtualy impossible to condemn the use of tank style water heaters. How the heck are we going to fill these three woman, one man soaking tubs?

Dave and I do intend to address the issues at a code level, requiring storage tanks to be mantained at temperautures around 140 degrees F, with the distribution system being maintained at 130 degrees F, and that will require not only mixing devices at the hot water source, but also all points of use. We are fighting a major uphill battle here because of the homebuilders lobby. They won't do ANYTHING that increases the cost of their product, regardless of how many lives it will save...

So, yes, we are aware of the potentials, and are aware of the need to address it, but there isn't anything going to happen until the next code change cycle which is next due in 2010.

For the mean time, I have started putting a mixing valve (antiscald) on every side arm heater I install, and set the tank for around 140 degrees F.

As I have previously stated, the CDC has said that it is the most misdiagnosed disease in the world.

Typical case scenario, "The old boy died." "Aw, that's too bad. How old was he and what'd he die of". "He was 75 years old, had a good long life, and died of bacterial pneumonia"...

No one bothers to do an autopsy on an 75 year old man who died of pneumonia, hence another missed case. Cases of hospital outbreaks (noscomial) are QUITE common and well documented. They know exactly where it comes from (the DHW system), and they have programs in place to attempt to keep it at bay and it STILL kills a lot of people.

In my own case, had I not put 2 and 2 together, and asked the doctor to do a blood test to confirm or deny exposure to legionella, I would have never known. When I first asked my doctor if they could do a blood test, she said "Sure, and if you want to wait for the test results before we start feeding you broad spectrum antibiotics, you could be dead before the results get back (1 week). Do you want to wait?" I opted to not wait because I was coughing up bloody foam...and did the blood test anyway. It came back as positive for extreme exposure.

The only good thing about catching legionairres disease, is that there are NO known cases of anyone contracting it twice. As for your personal case, if I were you, I would have your water tested (from within the system during summer shut down), and if you are comfortable living with it, then go for it. But having been thru the sheer hell that is legionairres disease, I would not wish that malady on my worst enemy.

Not everyone that is exposed gets sick. But most of those that have compromised immune systems do, and the fatality rate is rather high.

I hope that answers your questions/concerns. As for water heaters as heat sources being an economical solution, it is not. It is a major waste of gas. And radiant floor heating is not for everyone nor is it in everyones budget.

ME

Stephen C.

Well said, but did you not swear off this thread

[Deleted User]

You have me confused...

with someone else.

As far as I am concerned, the use of open systems is not up for debate. At least not in my book. Some people in denial would LOVE to argue, and that is their perogative. But as has been seen through this thread, we are here to educate people with FACTS, and let THEM make a decision based on FACTS, and not pure conjecture on other peoples part because they don't see a pile of bodies, or a trail of evidence leading back to their open systems. The preponderance of evidence is there. All you have to do is open your eyes and your mind and look it up.

Me thinks your thinking of the other writer :-)

ME

jrc

Thanks Mark for your attention and concern. The information you and Dave have provided is new to me and I will be guided by it. In the meantime, your proposals for news code restrictions (140, 130 and anti scald) pretty much describe my system right now.

My system is like your original one--the internet was not available to me at the time and I had a 1920s book that said design radiant for 140. I will certainly use the information gathered here in any updates. I disagree that a water heater and chimney in heated space is not as efficient as a boiler.
And I disagree that radiant heat is not in everyone's budget.

[Deleted User]

You are welcome...

and if you feel the need to debate the other issues, I'm willing to listen and respond to your concerns. I have thoroughly researched these issues, and have been "doing it" as an educator, and a businessman for over 1/3 of a century.

Debate away :-)

ME

Lurker_2

re

Just because something doesn't kill ALL of the people who use it does not make it a good thing. Even cigarettes don't kill everyone. once you are educated, you need to give it up. You are simply being stubborn