open radiant systems

EJ hoffman

proof

What would appease you for proof? water samples from a system?

EJ hoffman

Constant circulation

What happens to the water in house unoccupied or apt ?

EJ hoffman

not caused by open systems

the pipe was the culprit in this story

EJ hoffman

not caused by open systems

the pipe was the culprit in this story

EJ hoffman

people like me

Liscensed plumbing contractor bonded and insured we also do open fire sprinkler systems.

ScottMP

Fresh water

has not been heated and has been moving frequently

Scott

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ScottMP

Eric

As a licensed Plumber I am surprised that you have no problem supplying domestic water for your customers that has been heated and allowed to sit stagnant.

“The plumber protects the health of the nation ".

The lesser costs of this type to system do not outweigh the danger you put your customers in. Why not drink boiler water ? Thats circulated ? Were do we draw the line ?

I knew nothing of Legionella until I came here to this site. I have been converted. I hope you can see this also.

Scott


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ScottMP

jrc

All of those things where once thought to be safe and acceptable. We learn and we change.

We are trying to help you and others learn about this danger.

I don't consider them Red Herrings. Sticking your head in the sand dosn't make a problem go away.

Scott

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Bruce_26

US Navy Information

Here is a link to some very good information on this subject. Important to note that the recommended water heater minimum temperature is 140 degrees F. Also states to avoid piping system dead ends and no-flow sections, for potable and HVAC water systems. In this link there are other very informative links.

http://www.wbdg.org/pdfs/legionella.pdf

The fact that in a particular system there has not been a case of Legionnaires disease does not prove that a system is safe or Legionella free. It may actually be that a person in one of the high risk groups has not been exposed. I am of the mind set that it is better to err on the side of caution.

wopotoket

as a sprinkler contractor

you should already be aware of what stagnant water looks, smells and feels like! Are you a licensed and certified backflow installer/tester?

"Open" fire sprinkler systems?!? Not sure what you mean by that, but in my neck of the woods no "open" fire sprinkler systems are permitted to be connected to municipal or private water systems. A DCDA is required to isolate the sprinkler portion if it is air or water-only based & an RPZDA if it is chemical or glycol based. Each device must be tested annually by a licensed certified backflow technician whose work is subject to spot-checks and reviewed by the NEWWA. We are one of only two local firms certified for confined space entry and the only local firm that utilizes OSHA-compliant gear for confined space entry and that utilizes continuous air-quality measurement via a certified 4-gas analyzer.

[Deleted User]

Absolute proof...

http://www.legionella.com/index.html

You're not going to like what you find though. As they say in the law business, "NEVER ask a question that you already don't know the answer to"

It is OMNIPRESENT. It's like oxygen, it's EVERYWHERE.

Were you sitting in the back of the class in San Francisco when Dave was doing his presentation on legionella at an RPA conference a few years back?

ME

[Deleted User]

Yes, but...

Had the system been done as a closed system, it would NOT have seen the heavy concentrations of chlorine and oxygen, and would NOT have failed, hence it was the constant circulation and the fact that it was an open system that caused it to fail. NO?

ME

Paul Pollets

These WERE open systems

and I've seen them personally. In the project, fan coil units were installed. To get the fans to run, the water temps had to be boosted to 140-160. High temps, high chlorides, which attacked the piping. Pex-Al-Pex was used on some of the units, non-barrier pex on others.

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Unknown

others commented on that already. there is another case of 'zene products leaching into the drinking water, through the walls of pipe in a slab, which was an open system as well.

limiting exposure to contaminants is always nice. that kind of thing also cannot happen in closed systems.

EJ hoffman

absolute proof

Wouldn't that require testing and say trying to make the system fail? We could do that. we could also try to find some open systems and test them for bacteria colonies. we could also ban indoor running water or storage tanks or any stagnant water, we could recirc hot and cold water plumbing systems, why not ban through the code non-oxygen barrier tube and anything else we disagree with.
I didn't know I was in a courtroom I thought I was here to share ideas, but then if I am in court it feels like I am the persecuted I mean being prosecuted therefore the whole burden off proof falls on you.
I did not attend that particular confrence I think I was busy talking with a few water works engineers getting their opinion on legionella in our water system.

EJ hoffman

Misapplication of product

Sounds like to me. Which pipes what pressures what velocity what size pipe and pump. These are questions that need answers. Before throwing stones read the directions and know your products.

EJ hoffman

Wirsbo and reahu

both design and sell products for residential flow through fire sprinkler systems. Yes I know what stagnant water feels and unfortunately tastes like I do not have stagnant water in my systems

EJ hoffman

why not test

why dont we require testing of water at the home/building yearly. I wish the energy lobby would get with the clean water lobby and come up with a program or product that would sastify both camps. One side is telling us to turn down our heaters to save fuel the other to turn them up so we don't get sick

[Deleted User]

Erik...

This is a free society. You can do anything you want so long as it does not affect other people. Like it or not, what you are doing IS affecting other people. You can continue to live in your state of denial for as long as you want, until someone catches on.

As Dave said, I have no dog in this hunt. I don't compete with you on a daily basis, and if I did, the consumer would be able to see through the wool.

We are here to help each other out. You simply don't want to recognize the facts we have laid out on the table. The fortunate thing is, numerous people have read this post, and one of them has publicly stated that we changed his mind.

There is no doubt in my mind that you would never intentionally hurt someone. It is just not in your make up. You continue to do as you please, just remember this conversation, and if you are a good person, you will test the waters, and if they come back at a higher than normal count, you should do something different.

Change is slow, and trust me when I say I am working on all the issues you have addressed as it pertains to DHW temperatures, stagnant distribution systems etc. These are all serious concerns.

Best of luck to you in your ventures.

ME

Derheatmeister

Just dropping in on this...

Did not Read all of the posting, just some..

Listen to Mark and GrandPAH. why be Cheap? doesn't one's heath mean anything to some of you? shame on some of you!You should Subject your self to this!But if your Children or elders become sick... then but only then may you change your mind..

I Europe this has been settled long time ago!!!!!

But Maybe the lawyers are good for something after all!

Ever take a Six shooter, put one bullet in it, Spinn the barrel, put it to your head, And pull the Trigger?. I think they call this Russian Roulette! GOOD LUCK .HM.

[Deleted User]

Constant circulation...

Now THAT sounds real energy efficient. What do you suppose your life cycle costs are compared to a closed system that would not require constant circulation ?

You're grasping at straws my friend.

ME

[Deleted User]

You are in the courtroom..

of public opinion. And you are losing your case. Look around. Do you see anyone else standing on your side?

ME

wopotoket

constant circ at 120F?

No problem ME, chust turn on the A/C to regulate temps(G).

wopotoket

as has been proven

the mantra to turn down water heaters is absurd given they already come set for 120F! And, as I've quite clearly proven in a number of articles, it's a fantasy to think turning down the storage temp will save either energy or money! The only difference will be the stand-by heat loss & that amounts to a whopping $12.00 per year if you turn down a standard chimney-vented tank-style water heater from 140F to 120F. But, they're already set for 120F, so that a mute point.

wopotoket

tugging on my ear ME

Sure sounds like the same guy. His name was Erik too & I remember the 'discussion' well. Went pretty much along the same lines.

It's the same old same old refusal to read about and understand the implications surrounding the issue. I sell them - I don't see any bodies - therefore they are safe - I will not accept existing scientific credible backed-up evidence to the contrary - I cannot produce evidence to support open systems - put up smoke-screens while ignoring requests to provide reasonable evidence.

It's time to move on ME. I'm tired of arguing with someone who obviously is in a state of denial fueled by personal interests. I feel like we're stuck in a Twilight Zone episode!

Unless some new and compelling evidence shows up to refute the rock-solid previously-produced evidence that open systems are a virtually perfect super-amplifier, I'm done with this thread.

EJ hoffman

Again I ask you

what sort of proof do you want? Scienctific proof is ever changing as we learn more and as science fights nature nature fights back, ever read about super bacteria?
Testing studying is how new products are developed would you like water tests from existing homes or would you like me to create a test model?

EJ hoffman

Yes

jrc a homeowner did, Grundfoss usa lists their pumps for open systems and closed systems on their website, and all water heater manufacturers make at least one model for open heating systems. UPC code approves open systems.

EJ hoffman

120?

why would you need 120 water in constant circulation? why not inject hot water using outdoor reset controllers? basic injection system.

EJ hoffman

Dog in this hunt

We all have a dog in this hunt even if we don't compete on a daily basis. The biggest is system design, the next is the internet. Some of my customers ask questions on forums such as this I could lose a customer ( i hear you cheering). Case in point I spent 4 hours with a new customer man is mechanical engineer and woman is a chemical engineer addressing their concerns over an open system, they are going with an open system now.
System design, we can always improve with better products, better design.

Unknown

If you have a basic injection system, what's the big deal about the plate HE?

that's cheap money if you're otherwise already all set up. One of your pumps can even go cast iron to offset the cost.

You spend a lot of time defending open systems, but I still haven't seen a good argument that justifies even a small risk on a cost basis here. A plate HE on a small system is not that expensive and again prevents any possibility of any issue regarding the DHW OR the heating system.

Dekstrous

For the record, not for open loops

For the record, not the same erik as above, just to add to an already suprisingly lengthy yet informative thread on a simple subject. Hydronics technology seems to be a very passionate industry with many diffrent beliefs. Insulate or no Insulation, then what type bubble or extruded. Why not the foam. Then theirs the Aluminum, Stainless, or Cast Iron Debate, Condensing or Non-Condensing. Zone valves or Circs, Open or Closed. Who is RIGHT? In what application. Well, time will tell. Currently my belief with current information and technology that is available to me is thus. The cost of a simple 35k-75k heat exchanger, and pump that can be wired parrallel with the existing pump, a few fittings and an extra 30-40 min versus risking the lives and health of the occupants does not make Cents. If they can afford to put in a hydronic system they can afford to do it safely. How many of those customers wanting to save a buck would do so if given full disclosure of the possible consequences of that savings. I guess everyone has their own opinion to what is right and deemed safe. How many jobs do we hear about or personally witness daily that could have injured or killed someone. Some done so not by intention but lack of education, fudge it will work, time, money. Then the famous I know more than you, im a professional, I have a license, I have done it this way for years with never a complaint, who needs all that technical crap that can fail keep it simple. ETC ETC ETC...(Not: I do think systems can be simplified but that is another subject) One is dangerous because of ommission. He or she doesnt know better and hopefully is open to learning and becoming better at recognizing when he or she is out of their skill level, for that person this site is an incredible resource and tool. The second person well, we see them come and go and clean up their crap. Hopefully before anyone is injured.

EJ hoffman

wher do you think bacteria comes from?

City mains bring bacteria why do you think they flush them and "fresh" water is still stagnant if not used, ever been in a building left unoccupied with the water on for two months?

ScottMP

Sure

take test sample of a an open look system that has sat for a week and test for bacteria growth.

Please do.

Scott

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Paul Pollets

Please....

State your qualifications, please. I'm hardly throwing stones. This incident makes 5 lawsuits for premature system failures in Seattle over the past 2 years. I don't think you understand that this was not a pipe sizing or pump sizing issue. It is an issue using water heaters as a heat source.

Know my products? I don't think there are many products I haven't used or know about in my 38 years in the pipe trades.

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EJ hoffman

I was not accusing you of

not knowing your products. I have been following the Seattle fiasco for quite sometime also. I personally have not seen this project but from what I have heard from others the design was not quite right. What I meant by knowing your product was meant for the designer of the system.
I, like you, have seen people not qualified try to solve these heating problems, one I witnessed was a scorched air guy trying to fixed a hydro air system, HO was not warm enough so he kept putting in bigger pumps until the pump was screaming 40 gpm of 160 degree water through 3/4 pipe at 80 psi you tell me how long that system will last, from what I have heard some of this went on in Seattle too small pipe too large pump, to much pressure for the heat. You have seen them I beleive you said what size lines were they using with which pumps and at what temps are they running?

EJ hoffman

double wall

There are still jurisdictions that require double wall or double plate when using heat exchangers, so the cost is more than stated, also space currently housing cost is $300 dollars a square foot to the homeowner. They want every usable inch they can get. Mechanical rooms have become mechanical closets. Also some of the footprints of the house have been reduced for a lower impact on the environment.

Unknown

the fact is, open systems are potentially much more aggressive to the heating system than closed systems are.

Are they in every case? no. Can you design around it, in specific geographic regions? Sure. I myself used to when I worked at a company who did open systems.

But it's just one more set of risks. One more I can't see any good reason to take, when using a heat exchanger is relatively painless.

Unknown

oh please. a heat exchanger is really going to take that much space. that has got to be the weakest argument I've seen yet; you're really reaching.

Yes, the double wall issue is ridiculous (I personally prefer a pressure gauge and relief valve for the EXTREMELY unlikely event of a plate breach) and that does radically inflate the cost of the system. In those areas, however, open systems are not even an option.

I'm asking, in areas where you have a choice, exactly what level of risk do you need to justify a simple heat exchanger? the list of possible problems with open systems (restricted heat sources, no glycol, aggressors to the system, health risks) may not individually be big deals, but each one is a tick in the "value" column for a heat exchanger. and when you're done, poof, none of them matter, at all, ever, for the price of the HE.

That seems like awful smart money to me.

EJ hoffman

here is the design

EJ hoffman