Should manufacturers monitor the Wall? Darin Cook

Unknown

that's useless. there are numerous sites out there where you can get unlimited, free, disposable email accounts. All that does is add 15 minutes to the creation of a false "mad guy".

I have moderated several forum communities other than radnet, and let me tell you, all registration does is slow down the rate of "trolls", it cannot stop anyone with any time and computer knowledge and an agenda.

let's not get into "security theater" around here. All registration does is give you a false sense of security. I think it's far better that here the trolls are obviously present so we are reminded that this is the internet, not a coffee shop, and all may not always be what it seems.

just two cents tho.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

good points

For instance, the thread Glenn referred to is one I stopped following a long time ago because its life-blood was being supplied by a flamer with a fake e-mail. And, I won't be reading it. As you've correctly noted, we can sift and normally toss out the chaff. However, this site is viewed by thousands of folks each day who don't have the base-knowledge to sift and they're reading the garbage posted by the flamers. Requiring a legit e-mail for registration would be one way to at least trace the post by the host. I doubt registration is going to become a part, so there's not really any way to regulate. If it gets too far out of hand, anyone can simply change the channel or ignore the offending thread, which is how I deal with the issue.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

appreciated

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for a view from the other side!

Steve Ebels_3

A point about flame threads

I don't recall seeing or reading the post referred to above where someone was evidently bashing Burnham. Can't say as I care to either, however, in light of the fact that registering and verifying every person who writes here would be at the least very expensive and probably almost impossible, I feel it's incumbent on all of us to do what we can to help with a little self policing.

Whew..shoulda' made that one maybe two or three sentences..........

Those of us who consider themselves professionals, visit here often, post regularly and receive great benefit from this place, have somewhat of an obligation to help maintain the "decorum" that abides here.

First, we need to hold ourselves to high standards in our own posts and resist the temptation to use the Wall as a weapon against someone or some company we may have an issue with. The title of "Professional" needs to be taken seriously in the way we deal with each other, our business associates and suppliers as well as customers.

Second, we can all help contain the type of posts referred to in a couple ways. A polite rebuke from "peers" is often all the music necessary to "sooth the savage beast". Having one or more of us chastise a person for being out of line does indeed carry a little weight and will work more often than not. Dan knows when to step in if things are totally out of line. Another way to encourage flamers to go away is to ignore their threads and not respond. Visitors here will quickly see that something smells fishy if someone keeps bringing up the same "broken record" story over and over and no one responds to the post. They'll also get a good idea of the "politeness protocol" required to be a part of this amazing place.

I for one want to encourage ALL manufacturers to at the very least monitor the Wall and at best be a presence here. Bring your expertise and give it as freely as do most of the contractors that visit here. We can all help to keep this the best site on the WWW for all things hydronic.

big willy

what I buy

Is greatly influenced buy what I read about here on the Wall. If a manufacturers rep is posting it means that much more. You can't stop angry peaple from posting. I think alot of the threads like that are a from peaple who dont know what really went wrong. We all know that the machine is only as good as the install. Joe homeowner has no idea what a good install really intails. All he know is he has a Ford boiler and it failed after a couple of years and it must be junk. Next time buy a Chevy. But how did he drive it? On the part about tracking who is posting to make sure they are who they say that cant happen. I can have ten email acounts under ten diferent names wright now in less than 30 min. and yes this is the best forum i have come across period. I have learned so much from reading and posting that it has become a part of my buisness.

Unknown

Everyone should monitor

what goes on here.

Yesterday I was meeting with a salesman from a local supply house. First of all he had never heard of me and I am right here in his back yard. He stated that his company has been looking for training on gas and could find no one. A call to the local gas company (who I used to work for) and they stated that there was no one. My fault for not having better advertising I guess.

Then I pointed out George Lanthiers picture and materials I have in my center and next to him is Dan Holohan and his materials. He had never heard of them and knew nothing about what they offer. His supply house distrbutes a boiler which is advertised here on the Wall by the way.

I told him my aplogies as perhaps I am not forceful enough when I call on these supply house owners to emphasize what is available.

After he left I checked my schedule and found not only had I called on this company but had left them materials several months back.

My four hour sit down and discussion left this salesman shaking his head with all the knowledge he recieved in four hours sitting and talking with me. He even found solutions for a couple of jobs that have been haunting him for several weeks.

Not only should everyone monitor but they should participate.

We all get flack every so often. That is just life move on and learn and grow and do not let it get you down.

Steamhead (in transit)

I did say that

about Glenn, because I really do believe he's one of the best in the business.



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Steamhead (in transit)

Darin, if the Wall did not include

people from every part of our industry- including our customers- it would not be the invaluable resource it is.

It's unfortunate that some companies have petty issues with their employees' monitoring and posting here, and on other boards such as OTT and DragonTalk. I'm sure part of it is internal politics, but whatever the cause I think it hurts our industry. C'mon guys, this is the Information Age and communication is key.

In the long run, I think manufacturers who participate in these forums will do more business than those who don't. I know if I ran such a company, I'd be on here every day.



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Tony_23

I agree

All the mfgs of hydronic equipment would be wise to monitor this site, at least.

I know my business has changed for the better since I started coming here 8 years ago.

Don Regan

I for one...

enjoy reading what others have to say. We, as an Insulation mfg. Company are under constant scrutiny. We only view a post as credible if the author positivly identifies themselves. Bashing any product with fake contact info helps no one. How could an issue ever get resolved? If an issue exsists???

Thanks Dan for providing this forum.

Joannie_15

The Wall

Hi, Glenn. I get what you're saying. That post is an irritating reminder of what the internet is, and much of what a couple (or one?) flaming idiot has said about your company is unfair. I know first hand, as you do, that responding to some postings can be very uncomfortable for manufacturers. But, I think not responding can be worse.

Having said that, I'd rather not see any kind of registration/verification process for the Wall. All in all, it works very well, and it's a great resource.

I've responded to unflattering posts before, and I've also completely ignored some posts that I didn't think would be productive. In those instances, I've emailed the person directly, and most of the time, I have found that the email is bogus. Oh well.....it doesn't happen much. And it's up to me to decipher what I believe is legit. And I think the vast majority of the people that read the Wall can also decipher what is legit.

People in my group at Laars (Paul, Bill, Noel) do respond to the Wall posts. (Heck, I see Paul's posts from midnight on Saturdays). Now, if any of us were just sitting around reading the Wall at work all day, that would be irresponsible on our part. But checking it during the day, scanning the posts to see if we could help answer a question, and even reading an off topic post once in a while is appropriate in our line of work. If we don't abuse it or post something irresponsible, our company is going to support us.

And now....I'll get back to work.

Joannie

Laars Heating Systems Company

John Barba

Lurker/poster

I've been a constant luker/sometimes poster on the Wall since day 1, and I have to agree with many of the participants in this thread that involvement here is a must for any manufacturer. You guys are our customers, and what you have to say, both positive and negative, matters.

My previous employer was a little less Wall "active" (although Dave Holdorf -- one of the industry's best -- generally tackles any question head on!); Taco is very active in monitoring the Wall -- anyone with a question, problem or an issue generally gets a response from Joe Matiello (also one of the industry's best!) ASAP.

Many years ago, a gentleman named **** Finnin -- a true legend in our business -- taught me a valuable lesson, although it's one so obvious that it shouldn't have to be pointed out: Every manufacturer has issues at one time or another. Those that claim they don't are full of it. What separates the good ones from the also-rans is how they deal with those issues when they arise. The Wall is a great forum for us to find out about, and deal with those issues.

troy_8

Wall posting

Any professional contractor that has done this very long understands that all manufacturers have problems now and then. We deal with mechanical devices. What distinguishes the good from the poor equipment is the involvement and support of the industry. That to a contractor means- are they really here for me when I need design questions answered. Do they back me up when it doesn't perform as advertised. Or do they duck and run- "never heard that one before" "we have never had a bad one", You must have installed it wrong. Coming here and answering questions shows you care. That is HUGE. and mostly absent in our industry today.

Bruce M

For Glenn at Burnham

You complain that some of the posters in the recent thread concerning cracks in Burnham V series boilers have fake e-mail addresses. You have not provided any e-mail adresses or names that you consider to be fake. They may or may not be fake but you are not telling us anything that is concrete or demonstrable. In addition, you could put an end to this controversy by telling us the actual number of V7 and V8 boilers that have developed a crack prior to the end of the warranty period. I notice that you have never given us this information which I am sure you will claim is proprietary information. Even if some of these postings were fraudulent, that still leaves many that are not fraudulent. I am sure you must know that this history of cracks is reported on other web sites. Just so you are clear on this, I do not own a Burnham boiler and I do not work for or represent any other manufacturer of heating products. Yes, my e-mail address is real and my name is real.

Tony_23

Demonstrable

He doesn't need to provide proof that an e-mail address is fake, you can do it yourself. Or, just look at some of them.

He's not denied a problem with a certain model, but he's also not obligated to tell you or anyone else how many they've replaced. At least he's got the backbone to be here and responding. Some reps won't even answer phone calls, let alone respond to internet chat lines.

You seem to desire a pound of flesh. Have they slighted you ? You have taken a post by someone you do not know, with a system you do not know, and treated it as if it were a sworn deposition. IIRC, she never even posted a single picture.

I also do not work for, or represent any manufacturer. (In fact, I've only worked on 3 Burnhams in 25 years. No cracked ones.)

Bruce M

Tony, You Got it Wrong

When someone makes a claim that there are fake e-mail addresses and phony posters THEY need to prove it and verify it. It is not my job to confirm or investigate that. Even if someone wanted to do that, they could not do it because Glenn did not post any names. It is not one person alone that has made that claim, it is many. I do not desire a pound of flesh. If Burnham or any other company has made a defective product I believe they should correct or replace the product. When people buy a cast iron boiler they expect a 25 year life span. I am sure you have seen quite a few steel boilers that are 30-40 years old. In actuality, this is just the tip of the iceberg because many elderly and poor people do not have computers. They do not have a voice to post here. I think of Mary, who some of you bad-mouthed. She was finally able to post pictures here. Do you think people make up these stories? I think not.

Unknown

Bruce, it happens. It really does. We caught some red handed on Radnet posting false testimonials.

JackR

Fair Bruce?

I'm a customer of yours and I feel you over charged me, I would like a list of all the installs you have done in the last five years so I can validate your price with the other consumers. Would that be fair?

Bob Bona_4

I'm not

sure what you are trying to accomplish, Bruce. Glenn has verified and proved fake addies to himself, when he has tried to email them, and they get kicked back. He doesn't have to share his trials and tribulations w/ anyone in the process, and good on him that he makes the effort to contact these so-called disgruntled customers. I'm willing to bet he has done so beyond regular working hours, to boot.

I think you are reaching with your statement about the elderly and poor/tip of the iceberg thing.

Tony_23

Don't be so sure

I've been in a lot of places where people are sitting in front of their Wal Mart computer on a cable modem and they can't afford to replace their Coleman mobile home furnace. That, and their $350/month pickup truck payment.

Seems to me, if Burnham was ducking a huge issue, there'd be a class action lawsuit. Since there's not, and they are upholding the written warranty, what do you want ? And why ? You seem to be taking this issue personnally, that is why I question your motivation.

Also, he doesn't have to provide the info for you to check out, you can do it yourself. Simply reply to a post and scroll up to see their e-mail address, click on it and you can try to send them an e-mail. Pretty simple, just takes time. Wouldn't you like to know that the posters you are defending are truly different people with a legitimate issue ? They could all be "Mary". Think about it.

ScottMP

Bruce M

I'm sorry but I belive You have it wrong. You are insinuating that Glenn is stating that all complaints about their boilers are from fake address and flamers. Thats it NOT what he said. What he is saying is that many of the most inflamatory comments where made by people with fake address.

I have seen and read Glenns comments about the V7 problems and I have never read a post where he claims that a problem does not exist.

From your comments I assume that you do not know Glenn, since if you did you know, as the rest of us do, that he is an honest, stand up guy who strives for the best for our industry.

I do not work for Burnham.

Scott

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ScottMP

Bruce M

I'm sorry but I belive You have it wrong. You are insinuating that Glenn is stating that all complaints about their boilers are from fake address and flamers. Thats it NOT what he said. What he is saying is that many of the most inflamatory comments where made by people with fake address.

I have seen and read Glenns comments about the V7 problems and I have never read a post where he claims that a problem does not exist.

From your comments I assume that you do not know Glenn, since if you did you know, as the rest of us do, that he is an honest, stand up guy who strives for the best for our industry.

I do not work for Burnham.

Scott

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Bruce M

Scott, I Never Said That

You need to reread what I said. This is what I said: "You complain that some of the posters in the recent thread concerning cracks in Burnham V series boilers have fake e-mail addresses. You have not provided any e-mail adresses or names that you consider to be fake. They may or may not be fake but you are not telling us anything that is concrete or demonstrable." When I say "some" of the posters that does not mean all of the posters. Glenn has made the accusation and it is up to him to prove it. It is not my job to send e-mails to 150 plus people who posted on this topic and then make a judgement that they are fake. He has made a claim with no names, no e-mails and no proof. I have been using computers since 1982 and e-mail can be rejected due to spam filters, server problems, full mailboxes, antivirus programs and a host of other reasons. Just because someone sends an e-mail and it is not received or rejected that does not mean that it is a fake e-mail. By Glenn's own admission, he posts here mostly on his own time. That is a semi-official posting as far as I can tell. It would be good to see an official reply from someone at Burnham concerning their casting problems. If you go to the Burnham Foundry web site you will see their mission statement: Here is a quote from that statement:
"Our Vision
To be the lowest cost boiler foundry in the world."
Now if I owned a foundry I think my mission statement would be to have the highest quality product in the world. Here is a link to that mission statement:
http://www.burnhamfoundry.com/

Joannie_15

Names

Bruce, you said Glenn did not post any names. Yet, Glenn wrote:

"If you look at yesterday's posts they were from persons with an identity of "baxbooch" and "Ed & Kim" but with the same bogus e-mail address."

Those look like names to me.

DanHolohan

On the other hand,

if consumers were looking to start a class-action suit against any company, wouldn't the begin with sites such as HeatingHelp.com? This is the internet age and this is a very popular heating site.

I do my best to find balance between all of our guests. Thanks for understanding that.

DanHolohan

Joannie,

no one is required to post their true e-mail address. Mark Eatherton posts "at hotmail dot com" as a way of cutting down on spam. And as Rob mentions, it's very simple to get a phony e-mail address. I don't have a way to police this.

Joannie_15

I Agree

Bruce kept saying that Glenn didn't say which names he was talking about, but Glenn did. That's what I was pointing out.

My email address is shown with "at" instead of "@" as well.

I don't want it policed. I think it works very well as is.

:-)

ScottMP

Bruce


That’s how I read it, sorry if I took it wrong. I do feel that Glenn does not have to prove anything. If you don't believe it that’s your prerogative but if you want to prove him wrong then go check the thread. I believe him.

I have been coming to this site since the mid 90's and have seen Plenty of flamers who post a fake address (some are obvious Pig@pig.com). Its part of the anonymity of the internet. It unfortunate, but needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Glenn let it get under his skin.

I don't believe there was ever a post denying there was problem with the V7.

I don't know how long you have been coming to this site but Glenn Stanton is a man of honor who has gained a great deal of respect on this site due to his actions and words.


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