Should manufacturers monitor the Wall? Darin Cook

Tekkie

Glenn, you make a valid point of email addys and posting rants but speaking as a homeowner I think you should give us more credit. We can separate the chaff from the wheat. It is very telling when someone says "hey I represent the manufacturer and I tried contacting you via email but it was invalid" takes the wind/credibility out of the rant(er). Also makes the manufactures more accessible to the techs and end users, which I look for... The rants ARE going to be posted and by not replying it just gives the impression of indifference. I have questions about the manufacturers that DON"T post! I also get suspicious of posts which were written by the legal dept. EVERYONE claims the best things since sliced bread. Let me decide... I don't know you but your reputation is solid on here and you have earned that by your knowledge and reasoned posts. I get this by the knowledge and reasoned posts of other posters. Since I rarely make a cognizent thought I end by saying "Just keep on keeping on"

Darin Cook_5

Is it important to you?

Do you think that ( place your favorite manufacturer's name here )should monitor the Wall? I personally think that they should and it also shows that said company indeed takes an interest in what is going on out here in heating USA. Do you consider an employee from a manufacturer to be "wasting company time" who is on the wall and responding to contractors or homeowners questions or comments? Please post your opinion on this. Thanks,








Darin

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hot_rod

Why do you ask?

I'm curious

hr

Darin Cook_5

I do not want to say any company names or individuals but this is an issue going on right now with a boiler manufacturer we are all very familiar with.





Darin

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Unknown

Which one?

Unknown

Darin

It's funny you should bring this up because I am in the progress of addressing this topic very shortly in another thread which I intend to post tonight or tomorrow. I personally don't think that anyone should be allowed to post here (monitor yes) unless they can register and establish a real identity first. The 150+ posts thread you are referring to keeps getting resurrected by individuals with no real identity. If you look at yesterday's posts they were from persons with an identity of "baxbooch" and "Ed & Kim" but with the same bogus e-mail address. I sent them an e-mail and as expected has not gone through.

In reality, many of the posters in that thread are people without an identity or possibly the same individual with an ax to grind. I could also see this as a real nifty way for anyone from a competing manufacturer to gain some market share. Take a close look at the posters identities and e-mail addresses and you will see what I mean. If I see posts like this I make it a point to try and contact them but with bogus e-mail addresses and identities that isn't possible. I have spoken to Dan about this with no results whatsoever. If this is allowed to continue, you will see more and more manufacturers stop monitoring "The Wall". For now I'll stay but I would like your thoughts. Should anyone who posts be required to first establish a "real" profile first. Other sights do this and it keeps the banter to a minimum. What are your thoughts?



Glenn Stanton

Manager of Technical Development

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Robert O'Brien

Glenn

I agree.It's too easy for someone with an agenda to smear a product or individual unfairly.I have to give a lot of credit to Mfg's who participate in this and other forums rather than just read what's being written about their products.

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ALH_4

The Wall

I have thought that profiles might be a nice feature to the Wall, but that would almost take the place of the paid "Find A Pro" section.

The internet is inherently anonymous. Unless Dan requires a CC number or Paypal account to post on The Wall, I dont see how to identify people positively, and that would stop most people from posting at all.

At times threads have gotten out of hand, but that is relatively rare and Dan takes care of it pretty quickly. It is not often that manufacturers are bashed for no reason. As internet bulletin boards go, this one is pretty tame and very friendly.

lee_7

All it should take is a section for Dan's eyes only that you must give name, first and last, location (ie.. Philadelphia, pa) home onwer or contractor, and this info verified by email. If email doesn't work, then no posting. It would keep people for posting under different names. I'm sure has smart as Dan is, getting his IT dept. to get that going shouldn't be a problem

Lee Morano III

DanHolohan

Glenn,

you got a result, just not the one you wanted.

We give voice to many people here. Some of the people in that thread are being critical, sure, but there are also many in that thread who are very supportive of Burnham. You've had all the space you want to say what's on your mind, and you may take more space if you'd like. You're seeing this as the workings of your competitors trying to gain market share; I'm seeing it as the Internet.

Other threads have been critical of other manufacturers, and many of those manufacturers are your competitors. A very recent one about Weil-McLain comes to mind. And then there was a long one about E.K.

I think I run a fair website, Glenn, and one that is respectful to everyone who visits here.

Unknown

Dear Dan

A lot of people don't voice an opinion here because of the bashing they get if their product is not the correct color. We have seen this many times.

What I also always see first is the Dunkirk banner. This website is about money. Yes you do a nice service for the hydronic community, but it is what it is.

Edit in: I believe that Dan should be paying people like Glenn to post responses to potential customers. (Customers of Dan and Burnham).

DanHolohan

But then

I questioned you earlier this week because you use a false name when you post. I asked who you were because you were humping a Slant/Fin product. Slant/Fin is an advertiser, but if I found out that you were a rep using this site to promote your products, I would have deleted your post. And I explained that you by e-mail.

And of course this site is here to make money.

bruhl_2

HO here,
I agree 100% with Glenn. He is a highly valued resource from a 100% professional company. Folks here should value his involvement on this site. I am sure that the professionals and the legit HO's here do just that. I am paraphrasing here, but I believe that I remember "Steamhead" saying "no one knows more about Burnham boilers than Glenn".
My 92 year old dad [deceased] "misplaced" the literature on his Burnham V8. When I called Burnham and asked about getting a new copy, I was treated with the greatest repect, and a new version arrived shortly thereafter.
I hope that I don't need a new boiler for a long time, but if and when I do, it will be a new Mega Steam for me.

bruhl

DanHolohan

Lee,

what's to keep someone from giving me false information? How would I verify it?

David Nadle

Pity party for manufacturers? No thanks.

If manufacturers are smart they will continue to monitor and contribute to the Wall and thereby generate goodwill for their brands. I wish more companies were doing it and I'm thankful for guys like Glenn and Bill from Honeywell sharing time and information. It's too bad what Glenn has to put up with sometimes, but the cure is worse than the disease. He and his company have plenty of defenders here and we're all big boys and girls, right?

hvacfreak

I guess I'm the one who missed it..

When " The Wall " started I was under the impression that we ( HVAC or whatever pro's , trades-people ..could speak our minds about products , trends , whatever ). And I guess we did , for a short time.

Now we realize that anything we type is bound to the same " legalities " as any " publication " ( such as a newspaper or magazine ). The " biker bar " quickly became a ....nevermind...

So , here we are...I stopped voicing my opinion on specific products long ago...hell , even a good debate is " off limits " here. But on the other hand , I have recieved help on specifics recently....old timers are still here and aware of the " logistics " or " confines " and the best conversation is to be had one on one with them. This site has strayed from it's original intent , it's not what it " should be " ...but still a great resource . I'll still post exotic music and Honeywell 7800 topics...just so as not to be offensive. Any product available is great , fantastic , and superior to the competition ( just so no brand names are mentioned ). Heck , leaks aren't even leaks sometimes on here. " It's All Good " -M

Steve Ebels_3

Ditto

Personally, I'd just as soon see more manufacturer involvement. Doesn't have to necessarily be hype for their product but it sure is nice to pop in here ask a question and get an answer with no BS from a sales rep or parts counter guy.

I have the utmost respect for Glenn and Burnham for their can do customer service attitude and for chiming in here when appropriate. I know that a lot of boiler manufacturers lurk here and wish they would chime in to a greater extent.

Keep it up Glenn!

Leo

To comment on Darin's question

Yes they should monitor the Wall. If for nothning else to see where their strength and weakness is at. Some have made a choice to watch and contact off line if necessary and that's fine. Some are professional like Glenn and know when to speak and know when to listen. Some have taken the childish approach and gone away, I have no respect for those who run away but that is just my opinion.

Leo

[Deleted User]

Only a fool....

would ignore The Wall.

As for responding, I can see where it can become an issue. Some companies dedicate that responsibility to one person, and he typically has to run his respose by an executive officer before posting it because of liability issues.

Remember Mike Gordon?

As it pertains to people dragging manufacturers through the mud, its the internet, and its their game. Kind of like wrastling with a pig in the mud. The more you wrastle, the more they enjoys it.

I can see the manufacturer taking a stance on the situation, as they have done, but I think that we the working, installing contractor knows how to discern the difference between rhetoric and real issues, and most of what I see going on in that particular post looks like rhetoric, tempered by some real BS thrown in by who knows.... It too shall come to pass.

But as I've said before, I know for a fact that some of the biggest players in the industry read the Wall daily, and they have a handle on the pulse of the industry.

There is not another web site for other trades people that comes close to the Wall in this respect. It stands alone, proudly in that arena.

ME

Bob Sweet

When I see

people like Glenn, Mr White, Hydronics Mike, (haven't seen him in a while) Noel and others post here it means a lot. These guys are stand up people it makes me respect them and their respective companys even more. It's nice knowing these guys care about their products AND the industry

This is where the rubber meets the road imo. more manuf. need to monitor and contribute to the Wall. Putting a price tag on what this forum brings to the table would be near impossible.

Can we here from the Mod/Con manuf. across the pond. Dont get me wrong I love em and use em, but the silence is deafening at times.

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Paul Fredricks_3

Should manufacturers monitor the Wall? They are very short sighted if they don't.

Should they participate? I am very glad that some do, I wish they all did, but I understand why some don't. Kudos to those who stand up to the occasional bashing. It's great to know they have their ear to the industry.

As far as the few recent posts, one thing I notice when I step back is how well the regulars to this site defend the manufacturers, even if they don't use the particular brand. It is very easy to spot the hot heads who have to one-up everyone else. The regulars add the voice of reason which brings it all into perspective.

Trying to make the site more secure would be quite an undertaking, not to mention expensive for our host. As stated above, unless you require a credit card anyone can forge any ID.

This site works and works well. I enjoy the educated discussions(not the pot shots). It may not be perfect, but it certainly ain't broke, so don't fix it.

craig_11

tech advice

I appreciate your monitoring and responce both on and off the "wall".

Couderay

For what its worth to me

Glenn please don't ever go. I feel for you and you company to see that post. Yes it's B.S. but its a price we pay when we deal with idiots. Dan please keep this sight going its my favorite past time. And to all the knowledgeable people who respond on this site and you all know who I'm talking about, just keep doing what you are doing. Great people great manufactors and above all a GREAT forum.

Dan Joyce_3

> Should manufacturers monitor the Wall? They are

> very short sighted if they don't.

>

> Should they

> participate? I am very glad that some do, I wish

> they all did, but I understand why some don't.

> Kudos to those who stand up to the occasional

> bashing. It's great to know they have their ear

> to the industry.

>

> As far as the few recent

> posts, one thing I notice when I step back is how

> well the regulars to this site defend the

> manufacturers, even if they don't use the

> particular brand. It is very easy to spot the hot

> heads who have to one-up everyone else. The

> regulars add the voice of reason which brings it

> all into perspective.

>

> Trying to make the site

> more secure would be quite an undertaking, not to

> mention expensive for our host. As stated above,

> unless you require a credit card anyone can forge

> any ID.

>

> This site works and works well. I

> enjoy the educated discussions(not the pot

> shots). It may not be perfect, but it certainly

> ain't broke, so don't fix it.



Dan
I AGREE WITH MOST OF THE POST ABOVE.I rarely post,but your site has been a wealth of information.Thank you.
Also thank mfg."reps" who reply, your realy upstanding people.
36 years in the busines,just retired,we can tell the "hackers" from the pros.
Thanks for all you have done.
Dan Joyce

Matt_67

manufacturers

The level of expertise that Glenn brings here would take an average service tech 2 lifetimes to accumulate his level of knowledge. It is ashame that people will hide,and be afraid to reveal their identity.If it really is a competitior,they should stand up and be counted.I see that if the bashing continues,some manufacturers may just lurk,and not post for fear of being pounded. if that happens everbody loses a valuable resource that they made need to help them in a bind someday...

Andrew Hagen_2

Open Forums

I agree completely that the manufacturer involvement on The Wall is invaluable.

I also appreciate that threads critical of products are allowed here because where else in this corporate sponsored world can we openly criticize legitimate flaws with products? Most trade magazine articles I see are blatant advertisements. That's fine sometimes, but some critical judgement would be nice sometimes. Does anyone else read the Engadget Reviews of electronics? It's brutal, but very honest and it holds manufacturers accountable for the flaws in their products. I have also seen them praise many well designed products. Why should the hydronics industry be any different?

I really dont think there are many product criticisms around here that are completely unfounded, and I think Dan does a good job of weeding out the flames and trolls, as do many of the regular posters.

Darin Cook_5

Glenn

I was in no way referring to you or about you in my query.

Let me put a hypothetical question out there. Say someone at XYZ boiler company monitors the Wall and offers input to questions, or praise for nice installs, or even has to take a whooping in the name of the company but also takes care of all of their duties at work. Is this good or bad for the XYZ boiler company? Does this person make or break sales for the company? Do you feel that this is good for the industry in general? All of this controversy at XYZ boiler company started because someone working in the same office said that this "Wall poster" is on the internet too much. My feeling is that considering the power that the Wall has in our industry, that posting here should be encouraged not discouraged.







Darin

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mikea23

pump

I posted a pic a few weeks ago of a circulator that went bad the next day I had two emails from the company. Then a phone call. Most companys want our input and respect it. Glenn does a great job on this site as do other company people, to not have them would be our loss as well as theres
Mike A

Unknown

Darin

It doesn't matter that you may not have been referring to the thread about Burnham that has lingered here for almost two months now. What does matter is that too many of the posts in that thread do NOT have any legitimate identities or e-mails. I'm a big boy and can handle what goes on here but what does bother me is that legitamate people looking to purchase our products for their homes as in two threads yesterday don't know that the posters are bogus.

To clarify the stance of my company regarding what I do here, noone from Burnham has ever told me what I should or shouldn't say here, whether I should post here or when I can post here. I can tell you that some of our senior management people do in fact monitor this site and also respond, like I do, to the people that have legitimate e-mail addresses. I choose to monitor and answer posts here on my own free will, mostly on my own time in the evening and mainly because I really do care! Anyone that knows me well can attest to that. As Leo stated, I know when to get involved and I know when to watch and listen.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Technical Development

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Leo

Goes to show

Darin said, "All of this controversy at XYZ boiler company started because someone working in the same office said that this "Wall poster" is on the internet too much."

It just goes to show all comapnies are plagued with petty people and issues.

Leo

Paul Fredricks_3

Here's more of my .02

In my opinion, manufacturers reps who monitor and those who respond are a larger asset to their companies than those that don't. It would be like a doctor being told, "Just read the books we give you, don't look for real world info and don't talk to other doctors". Anything a rep can do to improve their knowledge is good for their company. Anyway that they can get real world input is good for their company.

Companies can't be afraid to show their face. The idea of an ostrich hiding its head in the sand comes to mind.

[Deleted User]

Time wasted on the internet is an issue...

And I don't consider the Wall a waste, but there are some people that don't get as much done as other employees who don't hang at the Wall during working hours. Theres a LOT of stuff to read, just on the Wall at this web site alone, not including whats listed in the Library and other places besides the Wall..

What an employee does on their own time is their business, but if they are just frittering away time reading the Wall, then I too would have an issue with their use of time. As would any employeer. 8 hours of pay for 8 hours of WORK. Is that asking too much?

I will occasionally check in from work, but usually to look for responses to a question asked for work. Most of my posting is done from home.

Here's an interesting read on internet wasted time.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2005/07/11/wastingtime.TMP

ME

Unknown

Monitor the Wall - YUP!

Darin’s question is a good one. I’ve heard comments about the time spent on the Wall with apparent concern for time wasted.

My personal feeling, as a rep, is that we all learn from each other and this is a great training ground. Time I spend here has taught me a lot even though I have many years in this business. My principals seem to understand and support my involvement [small as it is].

With that in mind I’d like to state my feeling that Reps, such as myself and others in the supply chain, should refrain from taking up too much of the Wall and in general, leave it to the installers for whom it was designed. We should only post when we have something to say that will be helpful.

I have seen suppliers and reps who post obvious sales promotion thoughts or negative thoughts about a competing product. These posts have no place on the Wall. Dan seems to keep an eye out for them but I’m darned if I can see how he does it. I don’t think he ever sleeps.

Should manufacturers monitor the Wall? Absolutely – They miss a wonderful opportunity if they don’t. An opportunity to see what those who use their products think about their functionality. An opportunity to see how they can make their products more attractive to those who influence the buying decision. An opportunity to quickly see a fault as soon as the market discovers one.

These gifts are valuable and I thank Dan for this forum.

rich pickering

Should they moniter the Wall? Sure they should. But unfortunatly, legal chill is setting in. I know 3 people who have been told not to post here or at htalk. They still look in and see which way the wind is blowing, but they have quit posting.

I think the industry loses in the long run.

Weezbo

There is enough apathy in the country as it is.

Here , the end user can ask a manufacturer Whats Up with this "Feature" on our new XZY product...? and get an answer from other proud owners of it never happened to me ,the down right disillusioned , technicians that repair the items, Engineers that spec the materials ,contractors that install them...so why wouldn't the manufacturers feel welcome to diffuse any perceived ripples on the calm crystal pool Wall's H2O watering hole ,

where everyone who drinks water will one day find the way here ?

*~/:)

John White

I love this web site. It is a great source of information for me, as well as all of us at Taco. I don't respond to every Taco issue, as there is someone at Taco that will, but don't think for a minute that I miss any. I am on here 4 or 5 times a day. I will always jump in when I feel it is necessary. Sometimes people personalize their comments. Oh well, gee wiz. It's a free world! Let it go. My focus is to keep making Taco a better company, and I view this web site as an aid in doing so. If you want to help, I'm listening. If someone doesn't care for Taco, or what we do, I'm listening also. I'm not sure why any manufacturer would be reluctant to take part in such a valuable thing. Thank you Dan. Just my 2 cents. By the way, happy New Year to you all.
jw

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

registration bounce

I have joined a number of sites where I must register and provide a valid e-mail address in order for them to send me an activation code before I can participate. Basically, all of my other info could be bogus and they also permit you to choose a "name" for the BBs. Owner knowns how to block me if I get out of line.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

Praise & a Raise IMHO

Like others have said, I am impressed when I see manufacturers representatives step up and answer questions - especially when they take on problems presented - heading off issues that would otherwise cause (IMHO) customers (contractors & HOs alike) to avoid their products. For those of you who have run the gauntlet and remained, I beleive you are the unsung heroes within your companies and that your company's sales are better for your having been here.

If that individual is continuing to perform their business duties, then I see no harm. Besides which, I know for a fact that those same representatives are taking care of business 24-7-365 on The Wall as the voice of the product(s). Try calling up XYZ at 10:00 PM with a problem on a Saturday night. If anything, the rep should be receiving praise & a raise.

It's damned good for the industry. Gone are the days (thank God) when we (contractors) never had the opportunity to deal directly with the mfgrs. The chain of communication was long, convoluted and (often) broken. On top of that, the answers that filtered back down sometimes scarecly resembled what had really been said.

It would be great if flame posts without legit e-mails would get burned themselves. If that became the norm, I suspect there'd be more mfgrs reps here, or coming out from behind fake names, to represent their company's products.

As a public spokesperson for a company, the responsibility is great to properly and politely face the critics, defects, and do so in a polite professional courteous manner. Those who have done so have earned everyone's respect. That, in turn, has garnered much praise and customer loyalty - priceless.

I wrote a letter to Burnham a year or two ago expressing my praise for Gelnn Stanton's work here.

tim smith

Response to Glenn

Glenn, just my thoughts. Part of this sites appeal is the "banter" that takes place here. A place to air out frustration, praise, gripes etc. To ask that a thread be removed is to censor. I agree with Dan that he should not remove a thread just because a mfr does not like what they hear. Now with that said, I know some of the thread in question is at best somewhat malicious. But as long as foul language is kept out of the mix it should be allowed. If Burnham thinks there is libelous comments being made, which I am against, there is always a way of tracking down a bogus e mail, may be via a computer forensics person, but can be done. Respectfully, Tim Smith

tim smith

? for Mr White

Mr. White, if the long thread in question read "Taco product defective" how would you handle it? Tim

Dave Larsen_2

Getting big heads!

I really think anyone that has a mind to, should have the ability to post on this site. The wall has no equal on the internet as a tool for information and advice. We've all been around long enough to seperate the BS from an honest effort to help. Deleting a post because of a bogus email would truly be censorship at it's worst. Not only is it fairly easy to tell the BS from other, we also all have a chance to agree or disagree with the post, or opinion, in question. Dan has provided us with a great tool, why mess it up for others because someone may object to another's opinion. As far as time spent on this site by reps, again, it is not our place to decide whether or not it's "too much time". That resposibility lies with the company signing your check, not any of us! If you are performing your duties at a high level and your employer agrees, then what's the problem?