Three Phase III's in 2 1/2 years...

ddufel

Checking the list twice...

Good evening,
From all of your suggestions, I've compiled a list of things to check off.
First, thing was the condition of the water...check - nothing out of the ordinary...actually it's very good according the testing lab. And yes, I checked for everything - including Radon... nope not there.
Second, stray electrical - grounding issues... yup,you guessed it... that's fine, too.

Third, pressure - just tested - 55... on the high side of normal... but then we're at the bottom of a rather steep hill.

The only thing that hasn't been tested - is the water tank, and the last one hadn't been sent to the lab, though I had requested it.

Looking at a few of your suggestions for the hot water heater... the decision should be made by Friday.

Thanks for the check list and the very thoughtful questions.

Cheers, DD

n9uebot9611768781

You don't, per chance, have

a pressure reducing valve on your domestic water supply to get it *down* to the measured 55psi, and/or a check/anti-backflow valve built into/in-line with the water meter?
If so, do you also have a domestic hot water expansion tank on the hot water outlet of the failing Phase III's? (not the ex. tank for the boiler, but a second one for the hot water). Just a shot in the dark.

Might be worth checking w/ your water dep't. 'bout their meters.

ddufel

You don't...

Nope. The pressure reading was from straight outside faucet at our house. Our community well doesn't a pressure reducing meter. Good questions. And yes, we do have two expansion tanks - one for the boiler and one for the hot water heater.

A question for you - if there was a pressure reducing valve - why would that be important? Other than if it was failing - too.

Tony_23

Question

Is this unit leaking right now, and operating at the same time ? If it's not operating you've gone a week w/o hot water. If it is operating and you have hot water but it's leaking on the floor, it's a boiler side leak. That would lead me to believe that you have other leaks in the system causing make up water to be brought in and the attendant oxygen as well. Oxygen + iron = rust = tank failure.

If you have a domestic side leak at 55 psi it would overcome the 30 lb relief valve on the boiler at all times. The domestic side water cannot get out w/o getting into the boiler side.

ddufel

The End...

Good morning,
Thank you everyone who has taken his/her time to come up with wonderful suggestions and the check list.

Our plumber has reviewed all the information. Turns out the water tester wasn't correct when he said the water was fine. Upon review, our plumber saw that the seasonal chorides - not outrageous but a bit high. And we all know water flucates throughout the year.

So the decision is this: a stone lined hot water heater.

However, if anyone every has a stainless steel hot water heater fail in a relatively short time - have the chorides checked - like everyone told me...and make sure the tank is cut apart and evaluated for problems.

Again Thank you all for your help. This is an amazing site and I've shared it with many, many others.
Cheers,
Deb Dufel - New England....

Ken_40

Better yet, Maynard...

Maybe someone should open one up and find out what went bad.

The amount of guessing by us, the seller (be it Triangle Tube or Weil McLain), the installer, and the homeowner (or end-user) is purely an uneducated guess!

When Triangle Tube (in this case) puts a photo out that shows what they contend is the "cause," we can make a somewhat educated conclusion. The test, photo and analysis should NOT be self serving!!! How could it not be?

The integrity of the company and the product are at stake. If you lose integrity, you lose sales. Either the European manufacturer has dropped the QC, or the environment where installed was the cause of this demise. Either way, somebody other than the homeowner must be hld responsible!

Of some significance, the HO and installer were never told the unit leaked because of anything like: spurious voltage, cathodic action, bad water chemistry, etc.

As far as we know, what made the units fail has never been stated by anyone; yet, everyone has a guess.

My concern is, guessed upon what?

Nothing!

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Ken_40

High Chlorides?

Define "high."

The water in the town I still have a 22 year-old TT 40 in has chlorine levels in the 1.5 PPM lvels most of the time, double that when major storms come in.

Chlorine is not an "abnormal" condition. In fact, it is the norm. If you can smell it and/or taste it, then it is excessive for sure.

Of some note; have you noticed plumbers in the area gloating over the demise of all water heaters in the 'hood? If you think the TT and W/M units are prone to chlorides, imagine what stone lined and glass lined will do!

I think your onto something, but not a solution that will impact the indirect. If so, have the cold feed to the water heater filtered to reduce chlorides. Cheap, fast and a solution with legs.

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Home Depot Employee

Ken,

Chlorides should not be confused with chlorine in this case. As one of the first responses of the post (Nov 30)and witnessing this type of tank failure numerous times, this was one time I was confident in stating the chloride problem, irregardless of the initial water test claims. Certain chlorides are nasty and I don't blame any S.S. tank manufacturer for not warranting the 3rd tank. Read the warranty, chlorides are not covered and the responsibility of the user to check. High chloride levels are rare to most but, are found in areas that tend to have a salt vein and mining close by.

The chloride ion is formed when the element chlorine picks up one electron to form an anion (negatively-charged ion) Cl−. The salts of hydrochloric acid HCl contain chloride ions and can also be called chlorides. An example is table salt, which is sodium chloride with the chemical formula NaCl. In water, it dissolves into Na+ and Cl

Chlorides are salts resulting from the combination of the gas chlorine with a metal. Some common chlorides include sodium chloride (NaCl) and magnesium chloride (MgCl2). Chlorine alone as Cl2 is highly toxic and it is often used as a disinfectant. In combination with a metal such as sodium it becomes essential for life. Small amounts of chlorides are required for normal cell functions in plant and animal life.
Effects on environment and human health:
Chlorides are not usually harmful to people; however, the sodium part of table salt has been linked to heart and kidney disease. Sodium chloride may impart a salty taste at 250 mg/L; however, calcium or magnesium chlorides are not usually detected by taste until levels of 1000 mg/L are reached.
Chlorides may get into surface water from several sources including: 1) rocks containing chlorides; 2) agricultural runoff; 3) wastewater from industries; and 4) effluent wastewater from wastewater treatment plants.
Chlorides can corrode metals and affect the taste of food products. Therefore, water that is used in industry or processed for any use has a recommended maximum chloride level. Chlorides can contaminate fresh water streams and lakes. Fish and aquatic communities cannot survive in high levels of chlorides.
Remedial measures
Chlorides can be removed from water by reverse osmosis. Deionization (demineralization) or distillation will also remove chlorides from water, but these methods are less suitable for household use than reverse osmosis.

Yes it is true that chlorine can be filtered or eliminated by something as simple as running it through activated carbon however, it is not so simple for chorides.

HDE

Ken_40

Mmmm...

Your refresher of my high school chemistry aside, and of course you are right asks, "Why him and no one else IF (big if) corrsoive forms of the chloride family are in his city water? I would think the building depratment would be inundated with water heater permits or plumbers in the region would be overwhelmed by this problem, if in fact that IS the problem.

I repeat, we are guessing at what caused this failure. Until somebody examines the insides, we are all guessing.

Questions like: How come the first lasted 7 years, the last 7 months? Did the water source change? Did the water treatment change? How come nobody else (that we know of) has had similar failures? The far more "active" metals of copper, steel and ductile, also in the system, appears to go unscathed?

We typically overcome corrosive salts in trace amounts by using SS vessels to overcome this water chemistry anomaly. Surely copper, and the less noble metals would succumb even faster?

Whattaya think Homey?

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Home Depot Employee

Choices

Deb,

Stone lined may be an option for you however, it is still crucial to make sure the coil or heat exchanger is still compatible with the high chloride levels.

Someone earlier poo pooed the idea of a glass lined tank however, for high chloride levels this is one of the best choices. I'm not sure if it is MegaStore or SuperStore but, one of them have a glass lined tank and coil.

You see, the bad rap that glass lined tanks get are usually the standard gas fired water heaters. Being that they are direct-fired (meaning flame underneath them) is the leading cause for their failures. Be it chlorides, calcium or lime,these items settle to the bottom and bake themselves on to the glass lining when the unit is firing. Once this happens the water still permeates this porous material and gets under it. Well when the tank fires, it boils the moisture in the settlement causing a small explosion which pops off this hardened settlement from the tank bottom. Heres where the damage starts. Everytime this happens it takes a little bit of glass lining with it thus, reducing the glass lining to eventiually the metal of the tank and then tank failure is inevitable in a short period of time.

So, the term indirect on a indirect water heater means there is no fire in, under or through the heater meaning the glass lining degredation cannot happen. If I were you, I wouldn't disqualify a glass lined indirect as, it is your best value and option.

HDE

Home Depot Employee

I guess

Ken,

I guess I tend to read into things a bit.
Here are my clues:

10 years ago approximently, not to many people installed indirects unless they were rural (typically added to oil or LP applications)

(Different today with energy efficient boilers, there seems to be a growing use)

Stated later it is a community water system. Well mine is a city, municipal, whatever. To me community means small. Small community water systems tend to be lacking in treatment, monitoring and most of all sharing information with their users. In addition these types of systems tend to have multiple wells to meet demand allow reserve or back-up operation. Also, some will buy water from neighboring communities if demand exceeds production. All this combined with our ever changing aquafier is my theory for the water quality changes that could effect the life of her different tanks. I may be wrong in this case but my years along time ago designing, spec'ing and project managing these systems have swayed my thought pattern on this.

That being said, having experience with numerous direct and in-direct hot water heating situations, I can say, I've just about seen it all. Besides a bad weld, which shows up near immediately, Chorides has always been the main failure of S.S. tanks. More importantly it is the salt side of the complex of chloride that is responsible.

I also mentioned very early on in my post of EMF, stray current and grounding. This plays a intregal part combined with salts and continuity. Again as some said later, tank isolation (di-electric unions) on both domestic water and heating connectons besides a permenant bonded ground to tank are all very important.

HDE

Unknown

home water softeners

How does a salt-backwashed water softener affect stainless steel indirect water heaters?

Noel

Home Depot Employee

Good question

Noel,

Sodium Chloride is typically what is used to regenerate a water softener bed. And because of that, both levels of sodium and chlorides in the outgoing water are increased. Hopefully your incoming levels are acceptable and the increased levels leaving your softener (which is only slightly raised) is still within acceptable limits.

Most good water conditioning companies would of tested all of these, treated and pretreated and should share/warn you of any potential hazards. Hopefully, if you were not a good candidate for water softening your water company should of let you know. This is typically rare and only on certain rural well situations though. Proper backwashing/rinsing cycles are important and sometimes altered to lower the excessive sodium left behind.

Fortunately, the choride levels of the two properties mentioned typically is only minimally increased. If additional or excessive sodium is a concern, you might wish to change to bags of Potassium Chloride for your "salt" bin. For a few dollars more it is what I use to regenerate in a attempt to keep my sodium intake level to its lowest possible. I might add that I have a reverse osmosis system on my kitchen sink for all my cooking and drinking needs.

In answer to your question, it can effect your S.S. tank, but if you are starting out with decent water and are softening due to to hardness (calcium & lime) you are most likey OK and have nothing to worry about.

Unknown

I have huge amounts of iron

and an existing softener in the house I just bought.

I ordered a S.S. indirect w.h. this morning (I work for the manufacturer), but I could change it to a glass lined w.h., if it was that big a deal.

Noel

Home Depot Employee

Noel

I am aware that you work for Laars and so would be using the "Bradford White" tank right?

There are mainly three types of iron when you get down to it; ferris, ferric & bacterial. Then there is Manganese, Magnesium and a few other nasty staining products that can show up in our water.

Softeners do a OK job on the first two but the rest need to be killed first before it can be filtered or removed. Most often this is done via chlorine and a retention tank giving the chlorine time to work.

Ferris & Ferric can be dealt with via a high capacity sofener up to about 2-3 PPM. You will want to add "iron-out" or use the iron out salt to keep the resin bed from fouling.

Your choice of tanks really comes down to the water quality entering it. To make a wise choice,I would be sure to have the sodium and chlorides levels tested before making a decision SS or glass.

Noel, I would have you say hi to Tod H. for me but then I would have to share my real name and would be out of hiding. LOL

Unknown

I'll say hi to Tod

I travelled to Portland with him yesterday.

Now even I'M curious.

Noel

Joannie_15

HEY!

You even spelled Tod's first name right! You really DO know him!

:-)

Joannie

scrook_2

A PRV at the meter would not allow expansion occuring after the meter to expand back thru the meter to the supply infrastructure so an expansion tank would be required on the HW heater to keep the house plumbing pressure from rising.

Without a pressure reducing valve the expansion in the HW heater would try to increase the pressure in the entire municipal system -- needless to say the pressure increase would be negligble so a HW x-tank wouldn't be needed (though would do no harm). Just a thought of another possible reason for the failures.

[Deleted User]

I don't understand...

why you're hiding behind the orange smock in the first place...

Whatcha got to hide? You embarrased about something?

Come on out. We got no fears here...

ME

Home Depot Employee

Time to move?

Witness relocation is such a hassle
LOL
Besides, who say's we all wear orange smocks?