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Three Phase III's in 2 1/2 years...

ddufel
ddufel Member Posts: 11
in THE MAIN WALL
Indirect.
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  • ddufel
    ddufel Member Posts: 11
    Three Phase III's in 2 1/2 years...

    Hi,
    I’m extremely dissatisfied by Phase III hot water heaters. Has anyone else had similar problems? We’ve installed – three, yes, 3, Phase III hot water heaters in the last 2 ½ years. Phase III hasn't stood behind their warranty and expect us to buy this forth one.

    And no, we’ve not replaced any other large appliance: dishwasher, washer or even a shower head in the last four years. Therefore, it’s not our water.

    Suggestions for other high end hot water heaters would be appreciated and/or comments of similar experiences with Phase III.

    Thank you for your help, DD
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Wow,,,3 in 2.5 years?

    Never had that!! TT has been good to me, but I can certainly understand your frustration!
    There has to be something in the water that`s reacting negatively with the stainless.

    Dave
  • ddufel
    ddufel Member Posts: 11
    Not the water...

    Ooops, I forgot to put in my husband has over 30 years experience in water treatment, waste water therefore, knows how to read water tests as a Civil Engineer, PE and diploma - speciality? Water. Therefore it's not our water. DD
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Sorry,

    I meant no offense to your husband`s abilities, as water is the only thing passing through-it I was just suggesting something was (perhaps)missed?
    Out of curiosity, what model tank is-it?

    (Edit)- Did TT have any explanation? It`s not like them to "turn their back" on you.

    Dave
  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 870
    water quality and failures

    You didn't specify the nature of the failures; but can we assume they leak? The chances of 3 bad tanks in a row are nearly nil; I, if asked, would be looking at the installation. Is there a potable water expansion tank correctly installed? Was the tank piped according to the installation manual? Was it filled according to the installation manual (this is important)?
  • Home Depot Employee
    Home Depot Employee Member Posts: 329
    A Leak?

    Assuming the failures were due to leaks, it more than likely is the water quality. Excessively high chlorides in the water are most likely to blame. Since most don't test chloride levels, and it almost impossible to reduce besides Reverse Osmosis, you should consider a different brand or style of indirect. Chlorides in the water are one of the few properties that attack Stainless Steel. In addition, the high chloride levels would have little effect on the dishwasher, shower heads and so, these are poor indicators of water quality that would effect your heater.

    Since T/T rarely warranty a third tank after failures, and I respect that, due to the track record, you may wish to change style/brands to solve your issue.

    Look for a ceramic lined tank and coil for your next indirect to virtually eliminate your premature failures.

    Good luck, I have seen this happen so many times before. One more thing to check or add is to make sure the tank is grounded directly or indirectly to a proper ground source to assist in reducing internal magnetic reactions (EMF) sometimes carried in through water lines.
  • heatboy_2
    heatboy_2 Member Posts: 48
    Has anyone bothered.....

    .... to have the water checked? I sense it's not the water heater's fault.
  • Dave Larsen_9
    Dave Larsen_9 Member Posts: 10
    Indirect?

    Is this a conventional water heater or an indirect heater?If we are looking at an indirect, then we are looking at domestic water and "boiler water". One thing to keep in mind is that the outer tank is not a stainless, but a ferrous tank.Radiant with non-barrier tubing perhaps?Just a thought.
  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 933
    big question

    Was it the inner or outer tank that failed???

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  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,399
    What was there before?

    Assuming this was is not a brand-new house, I would ask, "what served the DHW heating function before that had a track record?"

    What are the differences? What survived (or DID they?). What variables have changed?

    Just another direction in which to probe.
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • ddufel
    ddufel Member Posts: 11
    What was before this..

    Good question. We replaced a 25 year old boiler and 30 gal tank (the originals) with a new boiler and a Phase III about seven years ago. The first Phase III lasted the seven years...on New Year's Eve 2006 it failed - with an abundance of water. The next one was nine months and this last one was 14 months. We haven't changed anything else as I said in my first email - none of our other major applicances have failed. Only the hot water heater. DD
  • ddufel
    ddufel Member Posts: 11
    question...

    How does one know which tank has failed without cutting it open?
  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,399
    Exactly.

    That is what you would have to do (or should have done).

    I think it was an opportunity lost. Much of what we are discussing here is just conjecture.

    There have been thread about TT Prestige welds going at couplings (welds on anything being the weak point especially on relatively thin sheet stainless) so I think that is a fair hypothesis. But just that, a reasonable guess.

    If it were a pressure burst, there would be bulging going toward the weak spot, if corrosion, likely at a weld where it would start, that could be evident. Just some thoughts.
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • Will_5
    Will_5 Member Posts: 85
    Water again

    Is this on a well or city water?

    I have seen many failures on Crown and Triangle tube stainless tanks where the Chloride levels are high, they almost always fail on the welds ( weaker metal). Many do water testing but hardly anyone tests for chlorides.

    Just a thought
  • ddufel
    ddufel Member Posts: 11
    Type of water

    It's a community well that is tested by the State -- every quarter I think. And yes, I do believe chorides are checked for the type water comm. system.

    So if the welds are weak - is that from the factory or the plumber? The problem is the tank fails, the water back washes into the boiler and the safety valve releases water all over our furance room that leaches into other parts of the house.
  • ddufel
    ddufel Member Posts: 11
    Model type

    No offense taken - many people in my situation don't know much about water other than what they learn in HS.

    Model type: Smart 40

    DD
  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,399
    Tuesday Welds

    The welds are factory-made. Few if any plumbers have a need to weld in the field.

    From what you say that the tank fails and the boiler backwashes into the boiler sounds like a failure between the inner (domestic or high pressure) tank and the outer (boiler or lower pressure) tank. If it were the outer tank only, the boiler water would deplete. Instead, the higher pressure water goes into your boiler system. Nary a backflow preventer in sight...

    Here is an idea, just throwing it out.

    I understand that when these tanks ("tank in a tank" types) are installed, the filling sequence is critical.

    If the inner tank is filled first, it can put a stress on the top weld circumference. The inner tank "hangs" from the outer tank. 40 gallons is 333 lbs. If the outer (boiler-side) tank is filled first, the inner tank will "float" (or try to) and put a compression stress on the top weld circumference of similar buoyancy.

    I am not certain of the actual filling sequence but I can imagine simultaneous filling of each to keep the stresses to a minimum and have the water weight cancel each other out. Maybe someone else can speak to that?
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • Uni R_2
    Uni R_2 Member Posts: 589
    You want some sequins?

    "If the outer (boiler-side) tank is filled first, the inner tank will "float" (or try to) and put a compression stress on the top weld circumference of similar buoyancy."

    The manual is pretty clear, domestic first so that the inner tank doesn't collapse from the boiler water crushing it from all sides.

    ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

    Was the original indirect a stainless steel tank?
  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,399
    Thanks, UniR

    I never installed one but remember a conversation I had with Guy from TT that stuck with me. The "crush depth" condition makes sense. May still be a factor.
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • Will_5
    Will_5 Member Posts: 85
    welds

    Sorry, What I meant by weak welds was that the weld is the inferior metal between the rolled stainless and the weld. A weld usually will fail first by chloride laden water on a stainless tank.

    Just my experience
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Uni & Brad are so correct!,

    I try to guesstimate the tanks inner and outer filling time, then do the 2 stages together at least a couple of times through the RV & vent.

    Dave
  • Wayco Wayne_2
    Wayco Wayne_2 Member Posts: 2,479
    I had a

    bizarre experience with a Polaris years ago. The house lost 4 stainless steel tanks in 4 years. The stainless steel welds were the culprits every time. Everyone was very upset. Here's how it happened. The house had no grounding rod to the fuse box. The ground was provided by a clamp on the water line coming into the house. (In a small dirty old crawlspace. Yuck!) The local water company upgraded all the water lines coming in from the street to plastic lines. Ta Da! No more ground to the fuse box. At least not a good ground. The stray voltage from the electric lines in the house, kept trying to leave through the stainless steel tank and causing corrosion on the weakest part, the weld joints. We drove a 7 foot stake and ran a new ground and no more problem. That was over a decade ago. To find this problem we drove a small copper stake into the ground in the front yard and attached a copper wire. Then we tested for any millivots difference between the tank and the temporary grounding stake. There was a difference and that was the lead to the solution. I have never had a problem with a TT Smart tank. It's what I install most of the time. I hope this helps. WW

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  • Boilerpro_5
    Boilerpro_5 Member Posts: 407
    I was thinking the same thing as Waco....

    I have seen poor grounds or bad service connection cause many unusual problems. If water is good, then I'd start looking at the electrical. Wind and age have a habit of loosening electrical service connections.

    Boilerpro

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  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,231
    TT is a good product.

    installation techniques may vary however the manufacturer's spec i/o paper work comes with....

    one thing everyone is harping about is water quality..maybe ..buh there are other variables at work one being pressure...

    Just how reliable is the water Pressure to the cold water side of this equipment? not all muni's have the same quality of distribution nor are every devise installed, free from mechanical decay... perhaps it has nothing to do with the mellow installation practises of the contractor ,though it may. might want to check the pressure regulator from the city water supply... just to illustrate what i mean by that we are required to use Grundfoss stainless circ's on our laterals (for freeze protection) as the Taco bronze body is only rated in the data sheets at 125p.s.i. i mentioned this to Wilo when they were here and previously at a contemplative juncture of a conversation on the telephone.

    that's what we do,...mention things ...

    i think your hubby can figure out from a handful of work orders if there was any correlation with muni service work and the apparent problems that you noticed...you would have to be clairvoyant to know this might be the cause of the effect....

    i read the electrical theory too, "you cannot fight the current". :) electron drift theory is also a definite possibility ...*~/:)
  • Joe Brix
    Joe Brix Member Posts: 626
    Could water pressure be an issue?

    Somehow stressing the inner SS tank?
  • oil-2-4-6-gas
    oil-2-4-6-gas Member Posts: 641


    ahh beat me to it --check it electrically ----the tank should've been grounded when installed
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 255
    dd...

    Trust me, if there WERE a problem with Triangle Tube's tank within a tank, THIS web site would be aware of it first and foremost. I think your problem is a localized one, and it is the inner (pressurized potable) water tank that is failing. That failure would occur from either chloride attack on stressed parts (many in this particular style of tank) or as Wayne pointed out, stray electrical current. I can understand your disappointment, but I think the problem is a local one, and I do not blame the manufacturer for not warranting your tank any more. They watch these problems like a hawk, and I'm suprised that your plumber or installer didn't pick up on these warning signs.

    ME
  • Paul Rohrs_7
    Paul Rohrs_7 Member Posts: 173
    Curious

    What kind of reading will we look for from a multimeter? Stray line voltage? Continuity? Any type of current or voltage would of course be wrong I suppose.

    Pablo
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 962
    Stray current

    I'm voting for the stray current theory. There's endless information on impressed current corrosion and corrosion control.

    As mentioned elsewhere, ground the tank. And the piping. Were dielectric unions used? If so are they allowing an impressed current from the boiler to the water lines thru the welds?

    Poor AC mains grounding can form polarized DC voltages in the presence of anything that can be a rectifier: dissimilar metals, WELDS, water, metal oxides (copper oxide being a wonderful rectifier), etc.

    To protect a metal, we want to push it negative with respect to the protective current.

    Stray currents can find a path thru a rectifying medium creating a DC differential >650mv, a level where corrosion at the positive element will begin. 850mvdc is full fledged corrosion. ≥850mvdc applied is also required to control corrosion, with the protected item negative.

    US Army primer on corrosion control, pdf

    -Terry

    Terry T

    steam; proportioned minitube; trapless; jet pump return; vac vent. New Yorker CGS30C

  • ddufel
    ddufel Member Posts: 11
    Thank for all the information and brainstorming --- now what?

    Thank you all who have come forward and given wonderful advice.

    Tomorrow: 1. water tested, 2. electrical grounding, 3. call water company about pressure 4. have new plumber who recommended this forum - to check into what caused this tank to fail.

    So, what tank do you all suggest... TT is not allowed.

    And we've decided to add a softner tank, too. Suggestions?

    Again, thank you so much for all the information. I truly appreciate your time and thoughts on this matter.

    Cheers, DD
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,839
    Tank type

    I like the Heatmaker Superstore, been good to our customers. No failures. But if stray current it will happen with anyones. Tim
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 255
    WHat TIm said PLUS...

    If the tank has an anode in it, I wouldn't go with a softener either. THey EAT anodes for lunch...

    We use TurboMax. Twice as expensive as what you're looking at, and if applied to the same stray electrical current problems, would probably fail as well.

    ME
  • Dave Larsen_9
    Dave Larsen_9 Member Posts: 10
    need to KNOW!

    There are some things that have still not been confirmed with this tank. I don't want to see you go without hot water but installing another tank of any brand without knowing your problem is a little premature. Where is the TT leaking? If the inner domestic tank is leaking,the relief valve of the boiler will pop due to introducing house pressure to the boiler. If you have a puddle under the heater itself, then the leak has to be on the boiler side. If the boiler fill valve is shut off then a decrease in pressure will be seen in the boiler. Where is the leak??
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,310
    God forbid...

    someone should cut open the tank and eliminate all the guesswork noted above!

    Until the cause of the leak is determined, everyone's guessing!

    Unless there's blatant evidence from TT that the unit is failing as a result of the environment it's in, they MUST honor a warranty! Since no one from TT has stepped up other than to state, without any physical evidence proving their position, I find that deplorable.

    They don't make the product, they import it, just like Weil McLain. Having installed well over 100 W/M "Plus" indirects, I have yet to see one leaker. The water they are exposed to runs from wells and soft to city and like liquid concrete, hardness of 10+ grains. Never saw a weld leak, never saw a problem. Granted, there may be some minor change from the TT model and the W/M one, but I doubt they use a diffeent robot to do the seams on the TT unit as opposed to the W/M.

    Unless the vendor, in this case Triangle Tube, can demonstrate a failure resulting from the method of installation, or the water chemistry, I'd make sure they meet their obligation in full.

    Unless your water is relatively soft, stay away from anything with a coil in it. You want to see short life spans? Think Amtrol and anything resembling them. Unless of course you have water with a pH of 5.5 and chlorides up the wazoo, and hardness over 6 grains.

    In which case, be thankful you got as many years out of all of them as you did (;-o)

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  • TK03
    TK03 Member Posts: 54


    I have had a lot of luck with the Burnham new Alliance. It is stone lined and no water problems will affect it. It also makes more hot water with smaller boilers than most others.
  • Maynard
    Maynard Member Posts: 74
    water leak

    Went To House Today...3 Weil Mclain Tanks in 10 years.
    Tank 1- Lasted 7 Years.
    Tank 2- Lasted 3 Years.
    Tank 3- 1 Month Old.
    Couple Of Years Ago Saw 2 Weil-Mclain Tanks leak In 3 years.
    Maybe The Manufacter Of All These Indirects Should Go Back To The Drawing Board And Try Plan "B".
  • decoder
    decoder Member Posts: 4
    Bermuda Chappee wood boiler

    I'm looking for the draft control for this boiler or an alternative control
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,310
    I sure hope...

    the formulation of that glass lining is completely different than glass linings used for the past 40 years!

    Glass linings were the poor man's way of making a steel tank last 5 to 10 years. The demise of the steel tank is certain, the glas merely slows the corrosion process down to acceptable levels for some. I had a S.S. Triangle Tube indirect for 20-years that never missed a beat, is still in place two years after we sold the house, and will probably last long after we;re all dead and buried...

    After a lifetime in the biz, I never saw a glass lined anything - last more than 15 years - tops. More likely, 5-8 years. If the water is hard, below 6.5 pH, maybe 3-6 years.

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  • Dave Larsen_9
    Dave Larsen_9 Member Posts: 10
    Diagnosis

    I agree with Ken. I've installed triangle tube for years, now I sell TT, never really had any problems.Triangle tube will step up and handle this, I'm sure. I'm stlii very curious as to where this leak is located. We don't need to cut it apart yet. what signs told you this tank is leaking?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I agree with Ken too,

    not up on electrical grounding (or bonding) issues, but these tanks should have lasted much longer.

    Dave
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