New Boiler: Piping seems wrong....pls look at pics and share

Glenn Sossin_2

Home owner in need:

Maybe you should send 2 registered letters, 7 days apart identifying the issues, requesting that he repair accordingly. Give this guy a chance to correct his mistake properly to your satisfaction. I believe this is the standard required by law to allow you to proceed with legal action against him and not have him say " I didn't know about the problems".

If he refuses, then tell him you are going to hire a another plumber to correct it, and sue him in small claims court for that amount. You should have no problems in my opinion based on what the photos show and the comments made here by some of the best in the business. In addition, tell him you are going to send copies of these postings to the licensing board where he operates. That should get his attention real fast.

Not a steam guy, but my $.o2

Glenn

Home owner in need

Odd piping....see attacehd pics - assistance needed.

I had a boiler installed recently and have had water hammer, cold radiators, hissing vents(A sign of trouble) etc. After several cleanings it seems much better but not as good as old boiler which was slightly smaller in steam output. In other words, still minor banging, hissing and fairly hot radiators.

Current set-up is a one-pipe steam system gas fired Weil Mc PEG45. I replaced all radiatior vents with quality adjustables last year. Also has low water cut-out and auto feed. Can you look at the attached photo link and tell me what may be wrong. I am no plumber but Hartford Loop does not even seem like a true Hartford loop. Also, why is there an 'H' pipe attached to the riser? Lastly,I already measured riser and it is 2" not 2 1/2" or two 2" pipes as described in the install manual.

Can I ask you seasoned vets to Email/write back telling me what on the install is wrong and what needs to be fixed. This way I can fix it so the system runs the way it should. I also attached a photo of the old Hardfood loop for your reference.

If there are issues, should I be justified in asking plumber to fix it or just do it myself?

Thanks very much for the help, and hope to return the favor to someone else in the not too distant future.

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8AZsWLZw1YtWOC

Phil_17

Just a home owner, but...

There are a lot of things wrong with that install :-(

1. Copper on the steam side is a big no no. It will likely fail after just a couple of years (the thermal expansion tends to break the joints)

2. The H you refer to is an attempt to create an equalizer, but it's totally in the wrong place. Needs to be a straight shot down the header into the equalizer (which then should drop straight down into the boiler side of the hartford loop, yours looks like it's going into what passes for a hartford loop on the wrong side of it). And the two mains need to each branch directly off the boiler header instead of teeing off a riser like that.

3. The horizontal length of what is an attempt at the hartford loop is way too long, and will cause banging in that pipe.

4. Given that the pipes are copper, insulation is more important than ever.

5. Are those main vents I see right at the start of the mains, or is there some optical illusion going on here. Venting at the beginning of the main is not going to do much good, they need to be at the end of the mains or failing that the end of the dry return lines.

End result is that you've got lot's of wet steam out in the system where it doesn't belong and the banging, hissing, and spitting are the net results.

If you haven't paid for this yet, I'd say you need to get them back to do it right. If you have, then getting it properly re-piped in steel may cost you a fair amount. I am not a professional, but I've scoured over Dan's books, worked on my own system, and been lurking here long enough to know when things are not right, and this one has a lot of problems.

Mark_7

steamer

I don't do much steam but, I can sure tell you there needs to be some repiping done. The steam side piping should be Iron pipe and the copper can be safely used below water line. The steam vent on the return close to boiler should be at farthest point from boiler. Looks like the bad pipe job that you have you should find a steam prof. in your area. I'm sure others will find more problems and agree on the steam prof.

Home owner in need

Boiler install issues

Philc, thanks for the reply....all great stuff. Pictures are not the best but I only have one main (The one that comes off the top of the boiler), and the one on the right is the return line in the one pipe system. This is where the main vent is located. On the steam side of the main there is some odd little nipple extension but it is a plug so no clue what the purpose was to have it in the first place.

The bad news is that I have paid for this. Depending on the help I get on the wall, I will ask the plumber to fix his mitakes. If that does not work, I hope to attempt this myself in the spring or on a warm day if we get one. It was 20 degrees this morning and being a plumbing rookie, will take me a while to re-pipe the right way. What will help big time, is if I had help with a diagram so I know how to pipe the system (Assuming plumber won't fix this)

Phil_17

Looked at your pictures on shutterfly

I was just looking at the other pictures when I realized that the vent IS at the end of the main, and that this meant to be your return line...

A minimal fix would involve removing the H. Replacing the elbow below where the H currently is with a T which then goes horizontally over to a drop which is connects to the BOILER side of the hartford loop. The current return should drop down below the water line, and then rise back up into the hartford loop (at the correct elevation with respect to the low-water cutoff of the boiler).

Looking at boiler6.jpg, the return line would be the one on the right, and the equalizer would be on the left, with the return to the boiler going out the bottom on the left hand side.

But you're still going to have problems with the copper (eventually) and you must have a really toasty warm basement with all that exposed piping.

ttekushan_3

W-M

The instruction manual included with that boiler has detailed drawings on how to properly pipe the boiler.

Weil-Mclain wouldn't want to see it installed this way, thats for sure.

I'm presuming the documents in question have been removed from the premises to protect the guilty...

The Weil Mclain website will allow you to download a new installation manual so you can see for yourself.

I can't imagine that that steam-level equalizer of sorts doesn't cause distribution problems. This can cause efficiency issues as well, so I would get that straightened out as soon as possible. I wouldn't wait until the end of the season if possible.


-Terry

Unknown

you let a plumber

You let a plumber to your steam heating system? Yes, there are plumbers , like myself, do boiler replacments, however the few have real knowledge of doing the the boiler system. If I were you, hire a real boiler pro and send the bill to your plumber...

lchmb

Go to Weil Mclain

http://www.weil-mclain.com/professionals/services/obsoleteboiler.html#egpegegh


click on the link for the PEG gas boiler and go to page 9. It show's you the proper piping for this boiler.

Curious, how long ago was this system installed?

tk_3

You guys are making this harder than what it really is. There is a very simple fix. Keep the boiler tear out the piping and start over!!!!! There is really nothing right here!

J.C.A._3

Is this...

Some kind of test?

Holy Moly and great Gooogly Mooogly, there ain't a thing right with the near boiler piping that I can find.

Too many wrongs will NEVER make a right, but 3 lefts...will.

Chris

V8toilet_3

That's pretty bad! Whenever an installer uses copper and thinks its ok that person is a knuckle head. I have a Weil McClain PEG 40 (one size smaller than yours) and that one requires a minimum of a 2-1/2" riser. The installer tried to get away with a 2" riser on mine and it didn't run right either. I went from the original 80+ year old snow man piped by the dead men who knew steam to a new boiler so I had something that worked great to compare it too. If it weren't such an energy hog I'd probably still have it. I made the installer come back and install a 3" riser with a 3" header and all my problems went away. Also my new boiler literally cut my gas bill in half.

You too should request to the person who is going to reinstall the near boiler piping to go with the largest size pipe that will fit in that tapping, which is 3" for the header and the riser.

Tony_23

I'm missing something

You said the Hartford Loop doesn't look like a true one, I can't see anything that resembles a Hartford Loop

Reminds me of the radiant job I labored at fixing today. I told the lady of the house, "If you only paid for the material and he installed it like this for free, you got hosed."

Unknown

you let a plumber

You let a plumber to your steam heating system? Yes, there are plumbers , like myself, do boiler replacments, however the few have real knowledge of doing the the boiler system. If I were you, hire a real boiler pro and send the bill to your plumber...

Brian_19

Plumbers

Lets not put down plumbers. I have seen just as many poor installs by HVAC guys. The piping should look more like this.

terry_5

Holy crap!!!!!!!!!!!

Chas_2

home owner in need

I would contact the plumber who installed this mess and demand that the pipe be corrected ,this plumber must know nothing about steam and should stick to waste and vent but from the piping i doubt that his plumbing work is any better ,If he will not correct it call the state board of plumbers and get a pro in there to fix it and get the bill and sent it to the first plumber ,the truely only way to hurt a plumber that i know is to hurt them where it really hurts and that's the pocket (bottom line money)Go to the libary section of this site and get some pics of what a real steam boiler install should look like.I personally see loads of boilers as bad if not worse then yours and it's a crying shame it seems to many contractors are just about the money and loads of them know nothing and in some cases they may even disques themself as pros and even have a FAP ad on this site why cause there all about the money .Even before let a pro repipe your system ask you reffernces from the last 2 or 3 steam boilers they have installed with tele # so you can talk to these folks and of course some pics cause that's worth 10000 words ,Don't get sucked in by large companies advertising that run ads every where some spend upwards of 200,000 a year to run ads this does not mean anything only that they are all about custermer turn over and of course money but in some remote instances large companies do do good work but most plumbers and hvac companies are based on making money ,do your self a favor ask around your hood and find a smaller company where your likley to deal with the same guy every time and where your not a PIA when you call and are not looking at you like a # a poem that i live by ,The sweeten of a cheapened price is soon forgatten after the bitterness of poor quality peace and good luck clammy

Home owner in need

Boiler install

Thanks for the reply....it was installed about a month ago

Home owner in need

boiler issues

Issue is I can't afford to pay a huge bill right now unless I know it gets re-imbursed. How was going to attempt to tackle this myself if possible.

Home owner in need

Brain, I dont suppose you have more pics of that install? That looks mighty impressive. Any additional ones of the HArtford loop area and a lower shot when the return enters the boiler?

Thanks for this pic!

Home owner in need

Biler issues

H**y crap is right. I am not getting the warm and fuzzies on the install job. Based off everyone's help (Photo's, links, verbal assistance....THANK YOU ALL), this set-up is obviously way off. I will speak with the plumber to see if he will fix his mitakes. If not I will ba tackling this myself or consider a small claims court possibility. I feel good about piping size, material and layout at this point (Also due to Dan's books recently purchased), but the only thing I am having much difficulty is where the water enters the system.

Once the water leave the copper piping from the auto water feed, where should it go to enter the entire system? Right near the boiiler return or further away so the cold water that enters the system has a chance to warm up with other water before it goes into the boiler? Thanks

Matt_67

Go out of the forum

And look in the library portion of this web site. There are a lot of good pictures showing how things are supposed to be done. Keep in mind that no two systems are the same and that you can only use the pictures to guide you in how to rework your system.

Good luck!

Unknown

Ouch.....

I would question everything on this. A couple of posts suggested rip all the pipe out and start over. I suggest you look at your connected load and make sure the boiler is the right size first. Then start over. I would contact Weil-McLain and talk to the manufactures rep. in the area. They might be able to help you make sure the boiler is the right size and, talk to the contractor to correct the problems. I would think that any manufactures warranty that is offered will be null and void based on the way it was piped.

You paid for a boiler that should have been installed as per the manufactures installation requirements and your codes. I would imagine that you did not have a permit for this install. If you did it should have failed. I would call up the installer and ask him nicely to fix it based on the manufactures install installation manual. If you get no where going this route then you should take him to court. I would bet you thought you were paying for a properly installed heating system.

I hate to get lawyers involved but, legally this should be fixed. If the installer does not you have every right to take him to court.

Good luck,
Joe

Home owner in need

Thanks Joe

I knew it was bad but not this bad. Believe it or not permits were pulled(Permit rather....I had to fight with him to pull electrical permit which he told me he would originally pull).

Yes I fully expected this to be installed per manufactures specs. Not being a plumber I had no clue it was all done wrong. Not until I got Dan's books and had another plumber clean the boiler for me....my plumber was taking too long and pipes were banging and visibly shaking badly with hammer.

Based off everyones thoughts, I already am in contact with Weil McClain so they can tell me in their own words the install is wrong. This way I have a leg to stand on to get my plumber to fix this. If he refuses (I will ask nice), then I will have to persue another course of action.

To answer a question, my house calls for 435 sq feet of steam based off sq feet of each radiator section (Not size of house, guessing, etc.) The model I have is an output of 392 sq feet of steam. He told me it would be better to be slightly undersized than oversized so no short cycle firing would take place. Thsi may have been only thing he got right....but will check with manufacturer to be certain.

Unknown

He got that wrong, too.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=160

Noel

mark schofield

documentation

I would keep a copy of this thread and the responses that all the Pros are making, to share with your installer, WeilMcLain, andth building inspector: and keep the hole thread as documentation for possible legal issues/hassles to come. Good luck. I bet you will get some satisfaction.

Mark_46

Homeowner in need,

I went through a very similar misinstall with my boiler. It was quite a fight but in the end it was corrected only after the manufacturer stepped in.

I suggest contacting the installer and discussing the problems. Your primary source of info backing you when approaching the istaller is the installation manual that was shipped with the boiler/published by WM. Ask them how the install complies with what is specified in the manual. Give the installer the chance to correct it. I realize you might not want this person touching anything else in your home and its questionable if he knows whats right and what isnt. But correcting the install through the original contractor is the quickest and easiest resolution.

Also, have you made final payment? Unfortunately, sometimes this is the only way to keep the installers 'attention'. It may be extra difficult to get them to return after you have paid in full. In the state I live in, final payment should not be made until the work in question has passed inspection. However, inspection of near boiler piping is not within the inspector's authority! Generally speaking the only concern of the local authorities and building codes are safety related (eg pressure relief valves, low water cut offs, etc) Whether the piping is correct or not is a matter of contract between you and the installer and not a plumbing code/inspection issue. But check with your local inspector anyway to be sure!

Finally, try to get WM.s tech support involved. Generally speaking, no manufacturer would be too thrilled to have their product installed so poorly that they invest heavily in to design, manufacture, advertise, ensure quality, and support properly.

Home owner in need

Mark, thanks for the reply.......nice to know (In a twisted way), someone else has had a similar experience. I will be be following through on your advice for sure.

Home owner in need

Glenn, thanks for the advice....I plan on doing what everyone has reccomended and certainly plan on giving the plumber an opportunity to fix his mistakes. I think that is only fair. But if he chooses not to, then my attitude will have to change. I have to add that this is an amazing forum.

Where else would I have gotten so much help. Even though the install has gone sour, I really like steam and find it very interesting. I had my wife read a chapter form one of Dan's books....needless to say she was bored and said she might as well be reading a book of numbers. It is nice to hear that that are other passionate people on the topic of steam heat.

Home owner in need

Glenn, thanks for the advice....I plan on doing what everyone has reccomended and certainly plan on giving the plumber an opportunity to fix his mistakes. I think that is only fair. But if he chooses not to, then my attitude will have to change. I have to add that this is an amazing forum.

Where else would I have gotten so much help. Even though the install has gone sour, I really like steam and find it very interesting. I had my wife read a chapter form one of Dan's books....needless to say she was bored and said she might as well be reading a book of numbers. It is nice to hear that that are other passionate people on the topic of steam heat.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_8

shives me the gits!

Man, I am tired of seeing plumbers always getting shafted as a group on this forum. We repiped a steam boiler last month that had been installed by a heating & A/C guy who does no plumbing - ergo he's not a plumber. You didn't see me running down the HVAC trade folowing what had to be one of the absolute worst piping jobs I've ever seen on a steam boiler.

Yes, this is a horrible example of how to pipe a steam boiler & yes it needs to be corrected if there's any chance for it to work properly.

Sign me damned proud to be a Master Plumber. If I had a dollar for every mistake I've made over these past four decades, I'd have been able to retire on easy street. Thing is, I faced each one and corrected each one and I learned from them. You guys have already decided this poor bloke won't make the job right and are ready to hang both him (or her) and the entire group of plumbers from the nearest rafter. If'n you can't give a man (or woman) the opportunity to be a hero or a zero before commenting, you outta keep yer yaps shut. If the contractor tells the homeowner to drop dead, then I'll join you in piling on. But I won't be painting with a broad brush.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

one more thing

Can't edit the post I made while at work, so forgive the extra post please.

Not saying this particular homeowner did the following, but how many times have those of you who are pros been subjected to homeowners who called 2,500 contractors for pricing - took the low bid - and then cried foul when the work wasn't up to snuff? Fortunately, they're few & far between, but I've seen my share of homeowners and GC's who play that game. The 2%ers will always be out there and getting exactly what they paid for.

As for this contractor (and the homeowner)..... We're supposed to be teaching and helping at Heatinghelp.com At least that's what I thought this place was about. Suppose the contractor who did this work decided he'd like to learn about steam and (s)he stopped by only to find this post. Think they'd stick around? Think they'd ask any of the pros questions? Think they'd be inclined to support this site by buying any books? Think about it.

BTW, if it wasn't for modern sanitary plumbing and plumbers, most of you would have already moved to the other side of the lawn from water-borne diseases. Plumbing has saved more lives in the past 125-years than all of the medical advances and Doctors - combined - throughout all of recorded history. So stick that in yer hydronics smipe and poke it!

EJW_3

Plumbers

Well said dave, thanks.

EJW

Mitch_5

I have seen installs \"exactly\" like this before.

1) Get the official word from WM.

2) You may also want something in writing from a Pro that saw the actual install.

Some thing like; The second I saw it I new it was wrong, took the manual out circled the errors and left the "Original unopened" manual out for all to see.

That pro may also want to be willing to "talk" to the installer if he wants to correct his own work.

3) Present the evidence nicely to the installer.

4) If he still will not act take action. I would not force a repair through a lawyers demand letter since I would not want anyone working in my house under the gun. I would have the repair made then go to court with the evidence.

Mitch S.

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joshua

boiler gone wrong

My general contracter hired a plumber to put a heating system in my house. tell me what you think of this system and whether or not it is breaking vermont or national
codes. this system was installed a week ago and the plumber wants to come back and finish it. we brought other plumbers in and they did not like what they saw. please give me some feedback.

joshua

boiler gone wrong

My general contracter hired a plumber to put a heating system in my house. tell me what you think of this system and whether or not it is breaking vermont or national
codes. this system was installed a week ago and the plumber wants to come back and finish it. we brought other plumbers in and they did not like what they saw. please give me some feedback.

Mark_46

Sure

Homeowner in need,

If you like, email me off line. I can give all the gory details ). It may help in your situation.

I know how frustrating this can be. HVAC systems are expensive 'home improvements'. When its not done right it stings that much more.

bob young

spoken like a real plumber

good show Dave. as per usual you are the voice of reason.

Mitch_5

I'm sorry were do I start.

did you pay for this.

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

Let's see....

you hired a GC. The GC hired the low bidder. No, scratch that. The GC hired a whole bunch of low bidders. And you're shocked? Welcome to the world of new construction pal. It's a dog-eat-dog world. What'd you think, you'd get the best of the best in a bidding war where the lemmings are throwing themselves over the profit cliff while racing and being beaten to the bottom?

Chances are the inspector wouldn't know if that's poor workmansip or not.

Mark_46

Whoa

Joshua,

There's nothing funny about alchoholism but you might want to find out if this installer has a drinking problem.

I don't do HVAC work for a living but that is one of the most thrown-together systems Ive ever seen.

Or, is this a joke?