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Why is there nearly no discussion about Power conversion burners

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Norm Harvey
Norm Harvey Member Posts: 684
in THE MAIN WALL
I have NG in my home for DHW and oil for heat.

When I first bought the house I wanted to do an experiment. I measured my tank with a tape measure every day for over 2 months in the winter. I was then able to to take my NG billing cycle start and end date. Then calculate my BTU's for space heating based on gallons consumed X 140k BTU per gallon.

With that info I was then able to calculate what the price would have been to get that many BTU's of NG into my house. I was shocked at how much more expensive the NG was.



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Comments

  • Charlie Taylor_2
    Charlie Taylor_2 Member Posts: 34
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    Why is there nearly no discussion about Power conversion burners

    When I see the price of oil, I am curious why there is no discussion about gas conversion burners. Wayne and Thermo-Pride manufacture them and I see that Energy North in NH installs them. In looking at their specs, they seem that they would work with the combustion chambers seen in most residential oil boilers.

    Is the question more that few have experience with this and therefore it is would be unwise to install it?

    I would love to hear of anyone's thoughts, experiences, etc.
    Right now in Boston, a therm of gas is 99 cents, or $1.40 in oil equivalent units. With heating oil at $2.80, that's 100% more expensive (this winter). The difference could be $600 for an average home.


    Comments?
  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,398
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    Cost o' Natural Gas

    Steve, I have to respectfully interject a challenge on the cost of gas.

    The net "from the wellhead" price is close to 99 cents as you say (fluctuating from $1.21 in May to $0.94 now).

    Realistically you have to add in the deliver charge, the minimum charge, cost for first so-many therms and so-on.

    You will find that your actual cost per therm would be $1.77 to $1.97 according to some recent bills. Not that either is cheap but it puts them on par more or less.

    Not quibbling with your conversion burner idea, just the numbers used to justify it.

    Best,

    Brad
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • scrook_2
    scrook_2 Member Posts: 610
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    That $0.99/therm doesn't include delivery though; delivered, $2.40/gal equiv might be a good number now for Keyspan, so $600 potential becomes more like only $200.

    I would not count on such a BTU for BTU price advantage next year and beyond though (maybe not even by this winter's end), but you'd still be out the install cost, and the tank would be gone, so it hurt to go back again, and could hurt to stay, a lose/lose situation.

    Looking at the US DOE EIA website the latest posted residential NG price for MA was $18.53/1000 Cu Ft (~million BTU) that's ~$1.85/therm, equiv to ~$2.59/gal oil) in Aug 2007 -- even the city gate price was ~$1.10 not $0.99/therm, and the delivered residential price was high as $2.03/therm in Nov 2005, compared to #2 currently (10/29) at $2.888/gal, up 7% from $2.693 on 10/08.

    To, on Natural Gas as of 11/01 they report: "...Meanwhile, prices in the Northeast region were the highest in the Lower 48 States at $7.67 per MMBtu, after increasing by $1.16 per MMBtu, or 18 percent, since Wednesday, October 24" (these are spot prices at the Gulf of Mexico/Louisiana per 1 million BTU), roughly analogous to crude oil prices.

    As an aside: Beware of propane at $2.645/gal on 10/29 (approx $4.00/gan oil equiv.)!

    See:
    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_nus_w.htm

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/hopu/hopu.asp

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_nus_m.htm

    BTW I believe Carlin also makes both residential and commercial sized NG/LP power burners too, but I see no advantage in switching.
  • don_52
    don_52 Member Posts: 199
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    Conversion Burners

    Steve,

    I don't know if you have missed the posts of late, the
    Smith G-8 is a gas version of the Series 8, it has also
    been "suggested" to Burnham that it would be a good idea
    to get the new "MegaSteam" certified for gas operation,
    I don't know where the Peerless EC/ECT stands.
    There's the operative word "certified", the machine has
    to go through the engineering / recertification process
    again for that (or any new)fuel.
    SteamHead has mentioned / discussed this several times in the past couple months.
    Do a quick search I'm sure you'll find some recent threads.

    HTH, db
  • mtfallsmikey
    mtfallsmikey Member Posts: 765
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    First the cost comparison,

    Now the install scoop; I have done many oil to gas conversion burner installs in the past, used Economite burners (another geez moment..are they even made anymore?)The results generally were good, of course dependant on internal boiler design and chimney condition. Also, it's not as simple as unbolting the old and bolting in the new, and install costs not be cheap. But I agree on the fact that right now I would stick with oil, natural /LP prices are going to track with oil. The old adage of "if they can charge this much for oil, I can charge $$$ for gas.
  • Brad White
    Brad White Member Posts: 2,398
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    Midco Economite Burners

    are alive and well. Like you said, have not seen many if any lately....
    "If you do not know the answer, say, "I do not know the answer", and you will be correct!"



    -Ernie White, my Dad
  • Eric Tardif
    Eric Tardif Member Posts: 38
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    I just installed a power gas burner

    and I kept the oil tank. I used the spreadsheet put out by some governmental agency to calculate the difference between oil and gas using what I currently pay for both in the Boston area. (Google oil vs gas.) Gas beat oil hands down by at least $800 for this season for my house and with oil increasing and gas supposedly decreasing it was a no brainer to convert.

    I didn't like Keyspan's promotion since it required me to remove my oil tank. Am I to be stuck with them permanently? So I did the conversion without them and kept my oil burner to convert back to oil when Keyspan gets greedier.

    I found out the hard way that a burner with an electronic ignition is much better than one with a pilot because the pilot uses up gas. I can actually see the house's gas meter very slowly turning with only the one pilot on. At today's prices, having a pilot is not an option.

    I also noticed that even though the power gas burner is rated for so many BTU's, it still put out less BTU's than my boiler required. So make sure you get more BTU's than you need to be on the safe side.

    The cost was very cheap. The correctly BTU sized electronic ignition powered gas burner cost $370 which includes shipping. The labor shouldn't be that much unless it's a new gas line installation. Since for my conversion the labor included a boiler installation and conversion to steam, I wouldn't have a good labor estimate. You would have to get some quotes to be accurate.

    It will cost me $400 to reinstall the oil burner the first time (electrician costs $300) and then a max of $100 for each swap thereafter.

    I'm also taking a chance with insurance and warranties. I have faith that I have a very capable installer who will be there when I need him.
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,752
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    Midco etc

    We still work on hundreds of conversion burners a year, only installed one last year. 15 years ago we would install quite a few more per year. Re: question at start of post, there are actually not many current model oil boilers that have big enough fire boxes and less restrictive passages to accept gas CBs. Economite/Midco still by far the most used out here. Tim PS, our NG rate out here is $1.31/ therm w/ all tax & delivery charges and our utility commission just approved an appx 12% reduction to the utility for this year!
  • mitchb
    mitchb Member Posts: 19
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    While I like the idea

    Make sure the appliance you are installing it on is approved.

    Did a call on an oil furnace, that had a conversion burner, holed heat exchanger, Manufacturer said, burner never tested, never approved, no warranty as the heat exch was not designed to burn gas.

    He went on to explain, as we chatted, that The LEGAL certification report must list the burner you are using, or you are in essence building your own heating appliance. (run THAT idea past your insurance carrier BTW), and a smanufacturer they are in no way able t help you in anything with it as it is not the unit they built. Tey cannot deviate from the CERTIFICATION report for he appliance.

    Mitch
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Steve as one who

    has installed over 3500 Power Gas Conversion burners over the last 41 years I encourage people even today to buy an oil designed boiler or furnace with the possibility of converting back and forth from one to the other as pricing and convenience dictates.

    I have a manual I sell on Conversion Burners and the proper procedure for installing along with Combustion Testing. I must say that those who do these conversions should be well versed on gas technology and combustion and have had some experience working with pros who know how to do the install.

    I also would like to state that converting very old equipment which requires a lot of refurbishing is not a good idea anymore. We used to spend days working on these old units years ago to bring them back to some state of efficiency. That was when I worked for the local gas company (Providence Gas) now by way of New England Gas and today National Grid.

    I personally have not found a boiler or furnace that could not be converted if done correctly. I also realize today many manufacturers do not approve all of their equipment for conversion.

    It has also beewn my policy to attempt in all cases to have a final combustion analysis efficiency of 75% or greater. With many such as the Carlin G3B and G3A units I have been able to get 84% combustion efficiency. I find the most dependable of all the burners over the years to be Midco especially the E20A and E20B thermocouple operated units.
  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 931
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    CONVERSION

    If a client wants gas then i sell them a condensing modulating boiler. I have seen very few converted burners that run nicely on gas. Actually one that does is the Viessmann Vitola. Still I wouldn't convert just any old boiler. Gas and oil cost keeps going up and down a couple years ago oil was cheaper. 99c gas in Boston HA!!!! where do you get it for that?? lots of my customers would want to sign up.

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  • Eric Tardif
    Eric Tardif Member Posts: 38
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    Currently have pilot power gas burner

    but it'll be replaced soon with an electronic ignition power gas burner with more BTU's. How much is the manual?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Eric, contact me by e-mail

    as we do not post prices here on the Wall.
  • Eric Tardif
    Eric Tardif Member Posts: 38
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    Sent email

    I noticed that you also do seminars, teach, etc. Can hobby people take the seminars or only professionals?
  • don_185
    don_185 Member Posts: 312
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    heatpumps

    Heatpumps are going to be a great sales tool this year.


  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Our seminars are

    open to anyone who desires to attend.
  • Steve Ebels_3
    Steve Ebels_3 Member Posts: 1,291
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    Until

    Electricity will catch up to the other "fuels" just like it did in the late 70's. When the first oil "crisis" hit and fuel oil went ballistic..........to about $.50 a gallon.......many folks installed electric baseboard heat. Almost all the new houses constructed in my area during the 73-78 time frame had electric heat. By 1980 most were switching back to oil or LP gas due to KW cost going from $.03 to about $.07. The smart ones invested in a good wood burnign system.

    Granted, today's heat pumps are a far cry from electric baseboard, efficiency wise but I think the gap will narrow considerably. Proposed coal fired plants are being turned down left and right and building a nuke takes decades. It's going to be crunch time for all of our fuels here shortly.
  • DanM
    DanM Member Posts: 2
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    Work in RI

    Do you operate in RI? I want some work to be done for my house - oil to gas conversion.
  • DanM
    DanM Member Posts: 2
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    Work in RI

    Do you operate in RI? I want some work to be done for my house - oil to gas conversion.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
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    Try "Find a Contractor" at the top of this page

    Hi Dan- The post you answered is pretty old so I'm not sure what replys you are going to get.  Try the "Find a Contractor" section at the top of the webpage. Scroll down past the zip code section( it's not reliable) to the "States" section. Under Rhode Island they have several good pros listed. I would contact them.

     You didn't mention if your system was steam or hot water. If you have more questions just start a new thread by hitting the "Add a New Thread " button.

    Good luck!

    - Rod
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,621
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    I am in Rhode Island

    and can connect you with someone to help you. I sent you an e-mail.
  • Greg Maxwell
    Greg Maxwell Member Posts: 212
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    Conversion Burners

    Look into the Carlin EZ gas burners. they are great, and Carlin has them tested on a lot of equipment in the field, so they will come with the correct tube & flg combo. Just drill out the oriface and go. Great choice
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