\"Tea Kettle\" sounds? on my Prestige

tim smith

That's a good call on the flex, also are you sure you have enough pump on it, is it piped pri/sec or just through and out. If through and out, there may be to much restriction in system flow to get good flow rate through boiler. Good luck.

Ross_7

Tea Kettle sounds from my Prestige 110

Hey Guys,

Started up my Prestige for a shakedown cruise. System is purged thoroughly, but on start up on high fire sounds like tea kettle. I haven't had a chance to use a combustion analyzer just yet. Gas pressure looks good 5.4" w.c.(inlet) at high fire. Sounds like it may be coming from the gas valve. Seems to run okay, and it quiet otherwise. Noise is not super loud, but enough to hear. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance!
Ross

bob_50

Did you

connect the gas supply with a flexible range connector?

Ross_7

gas supply

Boiler is connected with Gastite, Triangle Tube shows it hard piped. I have three zones, used the 15-58 3 spd Grundfos, pump is on highest speed, that came with the 110, and used a Taco differential bypass valve, per manufacturer's instructions.

tim smith

flow ????s

Does it make a difference when either 1 zone is on or all on? If so, I would suspect flow problems. What size of gastite is feeding boiler?

hr

air purged from the top

of that heat exchanger? I like to install a ball valve up there to get a good full flow purge. Sounds like a "dry" spot in the top of that HX.

hot rod

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Ross_7

gastite

I have a 1" main ran through the house ( existing), 1/2" branch to the boiler, Gastite length is only about 6' from the main. This is the only gas appliance that I have connected. Hot Rod I have a caleffi auto air vent at the top instead of the cheesy coin vent supplied with boiler. But no ball valve.

Uni R_2

Does it do it with the front cover off?

It may just be the sound of air getting sucked into the cabinet.

Ross_7

Hey Uni,

I've tried it with the cover both on & off. Originally I thought maybe it was the holes in the back of cabinet, sucking in air, because I have this mounted on a stand, not on the wall. I heard a 250 in action yesterday with the cover on & off, and other than the fan it was pretty quiet. That's when I started scratching my head about mine.
BTW, don't you guys wish the sight glass for the burner was a little easier to see on the 110. The sight glass on the 250 is very easy to see.

tim smith

1/2\" gas tite

I would question the 1/2" gas tite, I think it would be better to be 3/4. Tim

Ross_7

Gas piping

Tim,
I believe the gas piping is fine. As short of a run as I have with the gastite to the boiler. Especially when I have 1" black iron main running to it, with less that 35' to the meter. Gas pressure check out just fine.

Unknown

Ross

when the boiler was installed was the piping system cleaned-out with TSP prior to firing? Heard that sound before, but on different designs and makes.

Dave

Ross_7

Dave,
After I installed the boiler, I just flushed the system after running all the zones. I guess I could try running some TSP through the sytem , and run it again. Also, understand that this it not a "percolating sound" like we get sometimes whe we have mineral build up in cast iron boilers, it sounds more like right before water begins to boil on the stove.

Unknown

Give it

a try, as I said, seen this many times on other makes/designs.
By the time they call me, I usually have to de-lime too,,what a pain.
After using TSP be sure to flush all that out,,, it`ll take you awhile.
Edit-Kinda like a "simmering" sound, right?

Dave

Wayco Wayne_2

My vote

is for the gastite. I have heard it many times. It reminds me of when we were kids we had some lengths of currogated tubing that we would twirl in the air, and it would make a whistling sound. (This was before video games.) I have on occaission replaced the flexible currogated gas lines to get rid of this noise. WW

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Ross_7

Hello Wayne,
Yeah, I remember those toys, out in the yard at Gram's house chasing your siblings around the yard, but that's not the sound.I've used Gastite on Munckins & Ultras both without any excessive noise or problems, so I'm not sure. I just checked everything out with the analyzer, and every looks good according to TT. I'm sorry that I have such an enigma here. However, it seems the more I run the boiler the noise doesn't seem as noticiable. Maybe it's just crud, like Dave says, and air like Hot Rod says. I'm not going to rule anything out of course, anything is possible. I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks again for everyone's input.
Ross

hr

You're sure the boiler circ is

spinning, and moving water? I haven't tried it yet but I imagine that boiler would run with little or no flow, and create the "close to boiling" sound you hear.

I'd doubt a mineral build up on a brand new install, but check the water hardness regardless.

hot rod

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j carta_6

noise

i agree with the previoys person who said its coming from the gastite flex--if it is sized on the edge of the btu rating on a high fire-maximum btu- you will hear a noise such as you have stated hearing-it is the flow of gas making noise on high fire going throught the rings in the flex when the flex is undersized-sound like you have adaquate pumping- i would try 3/4 flex to rule out the gas piping

Ross_7

Uni R_2

Does the sound change when you change speeds?

(on the internal circ)

Uni R_2

But he's hearing it on low fire also...

Ross_7

Flow

The sound doesn't change with different speeds on the pump, and as far as I can tell flow is evident in all zones. supply & return are both hot and all radiators are hot.

Dave Larsen_2

gas pressure

Is there a drop in gas pressure when firing? Take a reading before firing the boiler. Then turn the boiler on. If you lose more than two inches that tells me you've got a gas issue, could be restricted in that corregated line, could be a regulator. Is this a constant harmonic hum or a popping sound?

Ross_7

Hello Dave,
I sent you any e-mail the other day, was wondering if you were still at Able or not.:-) I'll try the gas pressure test. Let you know what I find out.

Glenn Sossin_2

Have similar issue

Curious - are you pumping into the exchanger or are you pumping out of it? Triangle tube says it shouldn't matter. I have this exact effect but after countless hours of purging out of the top of the heat exchanger as Hot Rod suggeted, purging into open buckets and then pumping away with a pony pump to visually confirm there is no air, electrical testing, pulling out the check valves,I finally put an amp meter on the circulator feed line and discovered that I had roughly 1/3 the amperage I was suppose to have, I had 230V circs - so I didn't have enough flow. I suspect the tea kettle sound is air coming out of solution because of lack of flow.

I have 2 boilers PS250, primary secondary, each pumping with UPS266-99FC set @ the highest speed, out on the supply side out of the heat exchanger. I have them pumping into a common 11/4 cop feed line for a SM-120 approximately 40ft away. When there is a DHW call, I have both boilers fire up. I can get the tea kettle sound and I feel heat coming back down the return pipe. It's almost as if the two pumps are dead heading each other. Then the units go off on error code E25 which indicates the exchanger is heating up too quickly - not enough circulation. If I run only one boiler, it will run ok most of the time.

I've never had a situation like this before. I submitted a piping schematic to Triangle tube before we started the job. I'm pretty sure its a circulation issue causing it. I have a job site meeting next month with the Grundfoss and Triangle Tube reps to figure it out.

I may put a 3rd pump on the common return line to pressurize the heat exchangers when there is a call for DWH help get the flow started in the right direction. According to Triangle Tube, I shouldn't have to do this. There is a very low head loss through the exchanger of these units. I did my head loss calculations and they fall well within the range of the UPS-26-99FC - I have 1 pump on each boiler - however they are pumping away. Next time I do a design with 2 boilers like this, I am pumping into the exchanger.

Anyway, enough of my problem, I would be extremely interested in how you solve yours - it might be a clue to mine.

Watching and waiting.

Darin Cook_5

What kind of gas supply?

> Curious - are you pumping into the exchanger or

> are you pumping out of it? Triangle tube says it

> shouldn't matter. I have this exact effect but

> after countless hours of purging out of the top

> of the heat exchanger as Hot Rod suggeted,

> purging into open buckets and then pumping away

> with a pony pump to visually confirm there is no

> air, electrical testing, pulling out the check

> valves,I finally put an amp meter on the

> circulator feed line and discovered that I had

> roughly 1/3 the amperage I was suppose to have, I

> had 230V circs - so I didn't have enough flow. I

> suspect the tea kettle sound is air coming out of

> solution because of lack of flow.

>

> I have 2

> boilers PS250, primary secondary, each pumping

> with UPS266-99FC set @ the highest speed, out on

> the supply side out of the heat exchanger. I have

> them pumping into a common 11/4 cop feed line for

> a SM-120 approximately 40ft away. When there is a

> DHW call, I have both boilers fire up. I can get

> the tea kettle sound and I feel heat coming back

> down the return pipe. It's almost as if the two

> pumps are dead heading each other. Then the units

> go off on error code E25 which indicates the

> exchanger is heating up too quickly - not enough

> circulation. If I run only one boiler, it will

> run ok most of the time.

>

> I've never had a

> situation like this before. I submitted a piping

> schematic to Triangle tube before we started the

> job. I'm pretty sure its a circulation issue

> causing it. I have a job site meeting next month

> with the Grundfoss and Triangle Tube reps to

> figure it out.

>

> I may put a 3rd pump on the

> common return line to pressurize the heat

> exchangers when there is a call for DWH help get

> the flow started in the right direction.

> According to Triangle Tube, I shouldn't have to

> do this. There is a very low head loss through

> the exchanger of these units. I did my head loss

> calculations and they fall well within the range

> of the UPS-26-99FC - I have 1 pump on each boiler

> - however they are pumping away. Next time I do a

> design with 2 boilers like this, I am pumping

> into the exchanger.

>

> Anyway, enough of my

> problem, I would be extremely interested in how

> you solve yours - it might be a clue to

> mine.

>

> Watching and waiting.



Darin

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Darin Cook_5

What kind of gas supply?

LP or Natural? If LP regulator could be turned too low. Static pressure would be ok but under load could be fading out. CO numbers and a combustion analyzer would prove that! The 1/2" gastite for the distance involved is fine.




Darin

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Steve Ebels_3

Gastite

It would depend on the actual length. A few feet of 1/2" running from main to the boiler would carry it easily.

hr

Glenn, the Caleffi

Hydro seperator is ideal for that.

Check out Dan Foleys, and a few other nice multiple installs in Siggy's "Multiple Mod Con" article in June 2007 www.esmagazine.com.

hot rod

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Ross_7

Natural Gas

Darin,
Boiler is connected to natural gas.
Numbers yesterday on the analyzer were this on high fire
83 ppm CO
9.7% CO2 @ 80F inlet(outside air)
3.5% 02
88.3% efficiency
Inlet gas pressure on high fire was approx 5.4"w.c.

Ross_7

Hard water

Hot Rod,
Hard water is definitely not an issue. Our city water is very soft. At work, we actually have to add salt to our humidifiers for our AHU's just so the controls can "see" the water levels by increasing the reactivity. So, ican rule that out.

Guy Woollard

Contact

I have sent you an e-mail directly with my cell number. I will do everything in my power to resolve your issue.

Guy

Guy Woollard
N.E. Regional Sales Mgr
Triangle Tube Corp.

Ross_7

Thanks!

Thanks Guy!
I'll try to give you a call!
Ross

hr

circs with internal checks

sometimes need to be burped. i do this by carefully loosening the flange bolts at the discharge.

Sometimes you can close off the iso flanges to "feel" if you in fact have flow.

Just because the motor is drawing current and the shaft spinning, doesn't mean it is creating flow. Pull the boiler circ if you have to to check impeller movement.

hot rod

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Glenn Sossin_2

Checks removed also

HR

I sell the caleffi hydroseperator. I should have specified on this job. Sometimes we get lucky and pricing isn't an issue for the job.

I designed this system, since it didn't work, I felt responsible to trouble shoot. I like getting my hands dirty once in a while. I took the pumps out, hooked them up to confirm spinning impeller. I took the checks out and had the same issue.

I watched you in on that PHC Solar presentation. Very well done. We want to get into solar also. Met with Viesman rep last week. Will contact Oventrop later this week maybe.

I am attaching the piping diagram I prepared for this job. Maybe you'll spot something.

Ross_7

solution? we'll see

I asked by our remove my hy-vent from the top of boiler & install a standard coin vent, not the cheesy one that came with the boiler. Their logic is that hy-vent may allow air to get sucked in because on the factory header it's on the suction side of the pump. I installed it today, we'll see what happens. Drum roll?

Ross_7

Solution? We'll see

hr

Thanks Glenn for watching

as for your noise issue. Do you have enough pipe size to flow 2- 250K units with 1-1/4". That could be the flow bottleneck?

Also I like to take two large drops from the primary loop, then pipe the two boilers into the drop. In essence making a hydro separator. But also it prevents the downstream boiler from seeing warmed output from the first set of tees, as it will with multiple P/S tees in a row.

It may also straighten out some flow bottlenecks?

hot rod

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Glenn Sossin_2

bottle neck

Actually your right, I agree the pipe is undersized for the distance. Originally the tank was supposed to be right next to the boilers so there may have been 10-15ft of 11/4 L which would equate to 5-6ft of head @ 45 gpm. It would seem well within the range of these pumps when you factor in the loss through the indirect and boilers.

The plumbers decided to mount the boilers in this semi crawl space approx 40 ft away. Thats why I'm using the high speed setting of the 26-99. I would think I should still get more than enough flow to prevent the 25 error code and that tea kettle effect.

Interestingly, Triangle Tube put out a piping booklet, drawings by Siggy which show Y fittings when using 2 indirects. I would have used a Y fitting here for the two pumps dumping into a common header at the same time. Somehow, I think if I had that fitting instead of tees, I'd be ok. I haven't seen one of them for over 25 years. Don't know of anyone who makes it currently. I think Chase Brass may have been the last mfg. I've got a piping issue I'm sure - just can't see it yet. Maybe I'll sit down there with a 6 pack and that'll help.

Uni R_2

Sound plausible...

I'm hoping you've nailed it.

hr

A `simple inexpensive Y fitting

Is to use a basic Y strainer with the guts removed. I've only seen threaded versions however.

hot rod

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