energy kenetics

Tom Hopkins

I

Haven't seen the presentation, but did see the data presented at Hershey.The difference between the Generic euro 3 pass w/ ODR,Generic Mod/Con and the USA low mass steel w/energy purge were not huge although the energy purge boiler has a distinct advantage.Say what you want about EK they were onto the advantages of this way before anybody else and do have the most efficient integrated heat/DHW system currently available.

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Unknown

that depends

Constantin,

That depends. Differnet discounts apply to differnet companies. A much wider spread then you find here in the US.

If you go to ISH, watch the Sales guys take their customers to the back rooms. This is where the annual deal is cut and discounts are made. NO ONE shares their pricing with anyone. You may see list price books, and some customers are paying higher thenlist, some lower, some at. There is no price columns like we have here. heck, I worked for the MAN in Germany and couldn't figure out thier local pricing.

You also have to look at model and accessories. Like the Votdens 200, they have no POWER PUMP MODULE in Geremany to convert 115V 60hz to 230v 50hz. Considerable savings. They also, as you have seen, have three or four levels of boilers offered where we have one.

Steve

Tom Hopkins

Let's not forget that we tend to refer to...

Europe as Germany;and, Germany as Europe.

Nothing could be further from the reality.

The Euros may have a common currency, but what's done in France is (as usual) nothing like Germany. Matter of fact, I witnessed on three separate occasions, over a ten year period a Germany that no one mentions; the one in the rural countryside. The notion that all of Deutschland conforms to federal boiler and heating standards is false.

The notion that all of Europe is "similar" is even more false. The worst boiler conditions I ever saw were in the UK first, Ireland second and Austria third.

Here in rural, norhern VT, well over 50% of all homes are heated with wood stoves!

The locals vote for windmills, green power, clean water and air, then spew 100 tons of polutants into the air via the wood stoves and dump manure in all the lakes and streams.

All the tree huggers that hunt freaked out when lead shot was banned by VT fish and game.

Such is the land of milk and maple syrup.



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Tom Hopkins

??? ... Hardly

They thought making boilers could be a money-maker. They didn't want to get involved with the cost of a foundry and decided to weld stuff up in their garage out of cheap steel.

The design was hardly revolutionary nor a "first." Steel boilers with every shape HX on earth, including their "spiral" one was already cast aside. Because the labor to weld is cheap, if your in your own garage, that's what was used. When robotic welders became affordable, the company became what it is today.

Having seen the unit they donated to BNL many times, and asking Tom and Yusef, who a bunch of us went to ISH with, as well as tech sessions at BNL, how the unit performs, they said it was interesting, nothing special and about 1/2 of 1 % more efficient than the only other boiler similar.

If it condensed, it would have merit. With # 2 oil approaching $3.00/gallon, anything only doing ~85% AFUE is obsolete IMO. When one combines the odd notion of having to be a "club member" to buy one - or parts for it, coupled with cheap steel construction, no choice in BTU input, and their poor reputation regarding warranties, it is a miracle they're still in business.

Of course, when your profit margins are huge, you don't ned to sell a ton to make money, if that is the only intention. Were they half as good as they continously tell us, somebody would have bought them out years ago.

I am amazed more of their "dealer network" hasn't moved in yet.

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Tom Hopkins

Ken

I don't think the heat exchanger is the secret to the results with the EK rather the energy purge seems to be the more important factor. I'd be curious to see the results if a EK digital manager was used with a Biasi or similar low mass CI boiler as well as a Burnham LE or similar low mass steel.
Ken,what did EK do to earn this type of enmity from you?

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Tom Hopkins

They...

Left a customer of mine who had three little kids in a house without heat over a four day week-end in the dead of winter. Refusing to honor the warranty because one of their installers didnt do weekend or eveing or holiday calls. When I offerred to drive to South Jersey to grab the part, they refused to deal with me.

I told them I would make sure the price the family paid by nearly freezing would be their undoing. They mockingly suggested I was nobody and they couldn't care less. Based on what I know, they still don't really care, probab;y never will.

I serviced a few for the oil comany they once sold to, who agreed that the product was crap and stopped buying them years ago. Lots of promises, few exceutions.

That's the short version. I wonder what ever became of the garage they originally worked from?

At one time I knew them very well, before they became rich and famous. They probably don't remember my name or the account I refer to.

My personal experience however is NOT the most important aspect of my dislike. It is their demeanor and dealer network that I find offensive. Were they selling Rolls Royce's, I could see the "exclusivity" marketing scheme. It's a boiler for Pete's sake.

Identical to Lenox, similar to Viessmann. Control the buyer, you control the market.

NOT!

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Tom Hopkins

Ken

I can understand you holding a grudge over past events but as far as I know Ford Motors and Apple Computer were started in garages,Dell computer was started in a dorm room at the University of Texas.Isn't starting in modest circumstances and building a successful business the embodiment of the American Dream?

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Scott Kneeland

dealer only

It is no different than Thermopride. They only sell to their dealers. EK only sells to their dealers. I happen to sell both products and like the protection it affords me a edge over the Saturday Home Depot hackwho is under cutting full service contractors like myself.

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Tom Hopkins

You are aware...

That Ford, Apple and Dell will all sell me their products, in spite of me NOT being their dealer.

Right?

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Tom Hopkins

Not so

Ford and Apple sell to only to dealers who then sell to the public,Dell was built on direct build to order sales.


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Tom Hopkins

Not so

Ford and Apple sell to only to dealers who then sell to the public,Dell was built on direct build to order sales.


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john_83

What About american made boilers No wonder why our country is in the mess it is.

Ken_40

and.....

Just what "mess" would that be lad?



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Ken_40

If EK ever

sells a million units a year, they too will have to have a distribution "network."

But since they don't, and with the way they choose to deal directly with a handfull of contractors (a few of which must be somewhat marginal or desperate to have some fantasized "edge" by this "dealers-only" method of distribution) at the exclusion of the tradesmen most of us aspire to be, they never will.

I cannot believe people buy into the Thermo-Pride, Lennox, EK pitch that suggests they can partner up - and offer something "unique" that results from verticaly marketed products of this sort. Were the products truly unique and superior, all of us would bang down the door to buy them.

The only thing unique with Lennox, EK and Thermo-Pride is the gross margins they can crank. That, and the naievete of anyone who accepts advertising, marketing and sales-hype as facts.





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