energy kenetics

Rocky_3

A couple of years ago I decided to really look at the EK boilers. I put aside my preconceived notions of what a boiler should look like and how they should operate. After REALLY looking at how they operate, I could find no flaw in their logic. I put in 30 last summer, and am on track to put in about 50 this summer. And trust me, they get a harder workout here in Fairbanks, Alaska than they do just about anywhere else on earth, literally. Easy to service, quiet, and quite frankly, my customers love the fuel savings. Are they for every job? Probably not, but simple baseboard, radiant via a buffer tank, they can't be beat. Constant circ jobs, eh, maybe not so much. They work well for me, and have had really good support from EK whenever I have called.

Regards,
Rocky

steve b_27

system 2000

I recently attended a system 2000 seminar allong with afactory tour,quiet impressive opperation and deication to quaility control.The possed some good arguments as to why there product is the best in its market place.With todays fuel prices Im looking to install eqiuptmentthat is going to save my customers money. Is this astep in the right direction?Is there any one that doesnt agree that this system isnt the best onthe marketand most effiecent out there?Is there pros and cons to this system from thos who have installed these boilers?

Tom Hopkins

From

the research I've seen and personal experience,I think EK is the most efficient integrated oil fired heating and hot water system currently available.I don't think it's a huge difference between a high quality triple pass with ODR and an EK but there is a difference.The digital manger is less complex than ODR and requires no programming It's hands down the quietest.On a high temp installation it's hard to beat.
EK seems to draw strong opinions from people on both sides,there's not too many undecided.

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kal_2

i always walk away when soneone says that they are the best...

too subjective.. and too many variables to be true -
who is going to install it?
who is going to service it?
how easy is it to get parts - lead times?
what is your heat emitter type?
this is for starters - and if you want to do
real automation with indoor feedback, fo-ged-abow-eet

eg - if you live near the isle of long and you have cast iron radiators - i would put in a natural draft slant-fin SX series and "have a nice day!!", the odds are extremely high, that you wont have to touch it for 30years!!! - i have zeee-row callbacks on that type of install

dont get me wrong, the system 2000 is really great, but the best? - not on your life!! dont even think it's as close in the heating world as the honda accord is in the auto world – but that a whole ”nother” thread

Tom Hopkins

Do

you mean a GX gas boiler?These and all others of this design will be extinct sooner or later(hopefully sooner)It's a sad commentary that intial cost is so important that standing pilot boilers still predominate in 2007

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kal_2

no sx, and it's already obsolete...but..

there is also nothing to go wrong on it,
all of the new 90+ eff stuff have tons of failures - ALL - OF - THEM !!! including the vie$$mann - i consider a "lockout" because of a temporary air pocket in a low mss heat exchanger, a failure - cause i have to return to the “scene of the crime” – or how about a flame sense lockout because the “condensing” boiler got a little too much moisture on the flame rod – I actually train customers to deal with this stuff - a Lochinvar knight has a flame rod that cant be installed wrong and the customer can easily remove, clean, and reinstall, in 5min – and they all can get fouled by a little moisture and dirty outside air – as they always make you put the inlet where it will suck in the most dirt - or how about the inlet water filter on a rinnai tankless - it’s the #1 callback, and on my rinnai installs, I put a huge filter inline and take original one out


i do fancy and hi eff stuff almost exclusively now, and i have gotten really good at building in redundancy so that i can get my two hours of sleep!!! – so don’t make fun of my slant-fin installs – ’kay

Al Letellier_9

energy kinetics

Here's my slant on them....while I don't like to and don't intend to slam anybody's product, I have taken out more EKs than I will ever put in. They are a steel boiler and it seems there is far too little training on how to service them. The installers seem to go away after the fact and the oil companies are PATHETIC (for the most part, not all) in training techs on servicing these units. I recently replaced one on an OIL HEAT CARES project that was leaking in three places, had no combustion chamber, had about 15 lbs of furnace cement in the rear door, and the bottom smoke elbow was absolutely full of soot.
I know....I know...it's not the boilers fault when lousy service is being done, but EK needs to concentrate on industry wide training on their stuff, not just to their dealer network. Most all the meetings I've been to were about sales and how good their equipment is. EK is not alone in the lack of proper training. It may be a very efficient piece of equipment, but I question its longevity and the amount of field support and training. Just my two cents worth!

Tom Hopkins

Al

What would any other boiler look like when neglected like that?Do you really think other boilers hold up to neglect better? There are very few EK here so the ones I see are the ones I've installed and a handful of others that appear no better or worse than other makes of the same age.

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Leo

Al, You have to ask

What do other brand boilers look like serviced by the same company/people? Your description Al is of a system worked on by a hack which has nothing to do with specific EK training. With half a brain most anything can be learned just by perusing their very complete service manual. By the way I have only worked for oil companies. But there are some I would never work for. I don't sell EK my boss hates them. I like them.

Leo

steve b_27

rocky, what situations have you come across where the ek was not the right boiler for that job?when I was at the semmiar they did throw out there that they did alot of sales in Alaska ek put to the true test.

Rocky_3

jobs where I wouldn't use an EK

constant circ jobs, like a small commercial system that utilizes constant circ pumps keeping a main hot. Places where the manifolds are remote from the boiler so that you have to use larger diameter piping to get from the boiler to the manifold. Most of our applications are finned-tube (baseboard), radiant, or a combination of both. Remember, the OEM control only does 4 heating zones and one DHW zone. if you have more high temp zones than that, then you have to buy the expanded 10-zone manager. Adds a considerable cost to the job. We make a radiant buffer tank via a 50-gallon electric water heater and control it with either a tekmar 256 boiler control or use a Taco I-valve. That way the radiant system gets the benfit of outdoor reset without goobering up the OEM digital manager with a bunch of external controls. We love 'em, and so do the customers. Makes DHW right now, quiet, easy to service...what's not to like.
Regards,
Rocky

dana_3

syst 2000

think outside the box alittle bit. build the boiler, primary- secondary. you can then achieve just about anything you want

Tom Hopkins

Rocky

Do you use outside air?If so no problems with cold air? Thanks

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Rocky_3

EK and P/S

Actually did that at my shop. Had a Weil Ultra Gas in and replaced it with an EK2. Kept the P/S interface that my Weil Ultra used and just married the EK to this. Works just fine. All the zone valves' tail switches on the "secondary" side wired into a relay. When any tailswitch called, it sent a 24v "thermostatic demand" signal to the zone manager. Used the 24 volt output from the digital manager to power open the "injection" zone valve and also provide the 24volt input to a relay that turned on the system pump. This works fine as long as the "injection" piping doesn't get too large. On some of the larger systems, the injection piping going between the boiler and the secondary system gets upwards of 1-1/4". Just have to find a spring-return zone valve to put in there as the EK must be able to "uncouple" itself from the load when the boiler temp drops. This "thermal clutch" is imperative so that the EK can get above condensing again.

We use alot of the outside combustion air setups. We just make sure we have at least 8 feet of thin walled intake pipe so that it can warm up some before it hits the burner. We usually put in a cold trap, or "U" bend so that the cold air doesn't just keep falling into the burner housing when the boiler is in the off cycle. If its done right, it really doesn't present any problems...IF its done right.
Regards,
Rocky

Unknown

postpurge

Rocky, how long does the burner post purge when the boiler hits limit?

I ask because I know of a case where a power venter was on a boiler that post purged for over 2 minutes (field adjustable timing) and as the boiler cycled off on limit, the cold air through the boiler actually chilled the boiler fast enough (on a 40 degree day) that the burner came right back on. To top it off, it had a bunch of tiny zones that weren't coordinated to run together in any fashion. It ran all of the time and blew half of the BTUs out the side of the house while it was off by the limit.

I serviced an old timers boiler in NH once, and he had a piece of 8x20 duct screwed to the back of the boiler jacket, flat to it, with two end caps on it and two 4" starter collars on it, one low and one high, on opposite sides of the warm duct. He brought his outside air through the duct as a preheater. The burner started off each cycle with warm combustion air.

He was pretty clever. It worked well.

Noel

john_83

Have heard more bad than good about those units dont reall care for the whole energy management system. At eleven oclock at night i like my weil ultra alot better. And besides with odrt i dont see a bi savings.

Rocky_3

Noel,

Do you mean the post purge after the call for heat has ended, or how long the inducer will run if the boiler actually hits high limit? The post purge for the inducer after the heat demand is satisfied is field selectable. One dip switch allows for either a 3 or 5 minute minimum inducer purge after which time another dip switch then takes over the inducer post purge to run it until return temp is 120 or 140, you choose. Burner will only fire again if there is another heat demand. If you are talking about how long inducer runs after boiler hits high limit, I guess that would depend on what the high limit differential is set for. As boiler cools down off high limit, the burner is going to fire after differential is satisfied. I think normally the boiler shuts down at about 185 and refires at about 165. True, micro loads on a low mass boiler create some issues, but that is true with any low mass boiler, EK or Weil Ultra gas etc...
I personally prefer not to use the inducer if i can help it. I still prefer the laws of physics over mechanical devices whenever possible.
Regards,
Rocky

Rocky_3

John,

I guess the thing I like about the EK is that with the digital manager, you're getting alot of what I was looking for in a tekmar in the first place: cold start capabilites, post purge aka "energy recovery" (like the tekmar pump post-purge ability) so that you don't leave heat stranded in the boiler, hot water priority. The only thing tekmar gives me that the digital manager doesn't is variable water temps. However, one of the reasons that is so desireable is that in high mass systems, by running the boiler as cool as possible, when it shuts down there is less of a delta T between boiler and outside air so you decrease stack losses. With the EK, you don't have 500 pounds of water and metal at 150 degrees to lose fuel up the chimney in the off cycle. With the EK's low mass and post purge, there is very little heat left in the boiler to lose up the stack. Are they for every install? Probably not, but when I really started looking at their logic, I just could not find any fault with it.

Best regards,
Rocky

Joe Brix

Rocky makes a good point

But couldn't make the same system with any low mass boiler
and a Tekmar control? It just seems to me that I would rather get a low mass 3 pass Biasi CI boiler with a Riello burner, a Tekmar 260 and a Phase III indirect for the same price of a system2000.

Ken_40

Answer...

Other boilers would simply need to be cleaned - not junked.

And that, is and has been the issue with them for 20+ years.

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Rich P_3

why?

System 2000, is all done for you, really isn't that costly if you compare all the parts and pieces.
Like down to the outside air intake hood..

steve_29

Seems like all the guys that argue with me about EK, are those that admit they know nothing about them.

Most all the EK's I service had been neglected very badly , it isn't surprising they fail prematurely.

kal_2

thats a nice feature for the lochinvar knight boiler...

it flashes service due at the owner at an interval you can program and reminds the owner to get you in there to check it out periodicaly

Joe Brix

I'd rather get the best on the market

for my money. Riello over a Beckett burner. Stainless Phase III over a glass EHW tank used as a booster. Top notch controls from Tekmar over their home grown stuff. A multi-sectional CI boiler I can size to the job rather then 2 size steel models. Not saying it's bad, just saying I think there's better value out there.

Scott Kneeland

I am a EK dealer and have seem many of them that were never serviced correctly, I have also seen my share of Buderus and Vie$$mann with the same issue. The misnomer with EK is the manager, What if it stops what if it dies? What if it does your EK dealer will repair it.I also sell a large number of Buderus the logomatic is scary too if you don't understand it.

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Big Bob_2

Funny, It seems that people will trust something from a foreign company like Buderus but if an American company tries something new it get knocked

steve_29

Well if the manager dies or stops put the card in and order them a new manager... or better yet put in the one that you happen to have on hand.:-)

EK has been around for a long time and that in itself has to say something!!

I certainly believe Buderus is a fine boiler and with the Logamatic it will perform very well.

Jim Hankinson

System 2000

manager has what's called a Limited Lifetime warranty. The first five years after installation it's covered in full except for labor. After that five year period it's covered by a manufacturer sponsored rebuild program that shuold enable the homeowner to have it replaced at minimal cost.

I sometimes joke that EK should change its name to something European sounding so it would be looked on more favorably. For some reason there does seem to be the opinion that only foreign equipment can be efficient or reliable. Biggest problem as stated elsewhere is lack of training and a preconceived idea that it's complex and tough to understand. As one of the primary instructors for our training seminars I've heard many times at the end of the day, "I never realized how easy it is to service."

Elsewhere in this thread it's mentioned that a CI boiler is desirable because it can be sized more precisely but no matter how well it's sized it's still for the coldest expected day of the year. System 2000 is what can be called "self-sizing" due to the Energy Recovery Cycle that uses the heat left at the end of a heat or DHW call and puts it where the demand was. Independent testing continues to verify that System 2000 is the most efficient combined heat and hot water system available.

Tom Hopkins

Funnier yet...

If any EK components die, only an EK dealer can provide or install it.

If it's a Buderus (or any other make for that matter) we can get the part from anyone, and have whoever we choose install it.

The traditional wholesaler networks, of which there are many, will not have the parts. You are held prisoner to the EK network controlled by the manufacturer only, not the free market we all enjoy and utilize so often, we mistakenly take it for granted.

EK has chosen this scheme, not the market place. The handful who wish to engage in it are favored and are compelled to act as secondary sales force. It as an intersting marketing model, not unlike the Lenox furnace strategy - based on "exclusivity."

I reject that model totally because it assumes an abnormal company "control" over a contractor. The few who sign up, seem to become drones and allied drum beaters, giving up the ability to choose what's best for a client, as opposed to what's ostensibly good for EK.

Therein lies the problem.

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Jim Hankinson

This isn't the problem you make it out to be. Any legitimate HVAC contractor, oil company, etc can buy parts directly from EK. All burners, circs, zone valves, aquastats are standard. OEM parts are manager, digital sensor and relay board. The plugin relays themselves can be purchased at Grainger. Chambers and insulation boards are available from us but if the chamber falls apart the system can still be run for the time it takes to get one.

Instead of badmouthing any product, not just EK, educate yourself first on that product. Legitimate concerns are always welcome, that's what drives improvement.

Tom Hopkins

Perhaps you missed...

the rather lengthy thread a while back wherein EK refused to sell to one of the largest contractors around? He had a client who was sold on the EK but the factory wouldn't give him the time of day because he was not of the "inner circle"?

When the thread's ominous overtones finally got to EK ownership, all of a sudden EK had a change of heart and fell all over the contractor to correct the "errors" committed by dismissing him, deciding the owner should personally call on the contractor to make amends?

The product is marginal. The company has chosen the path of distribution and networking they utilize.

Choosing to elimiate wholesalers and the convenience of buying parts anywhere is your choice, not mine.

Our concerns are legitimate. The shortcomings of controlling manufacturing, sales, end-users, and installers was your choice.

The rejection of that scheme may seem like "badmouthing" to you, but to us is it is fundamental to the way it works for everyone but EK and, Lennox.

But then, you already knew that. Didn't you.





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Paul Fredricks_3

If I remember right, they were trying to by a boiler. Given the unique set up of the boiler I can understand why they want you to go through training before selling you one. However, they did have more than their share of aggravation trying to get through the politics, I've run into similar problems with other companies.

We don't sell EK's, but we have not had a problem getting parts. I do need to set up a refresher course for our service guys so we know we are doing things correctly.

I did install these years ago with a different company and did like the set up. As long as they were installed and serviced correctly, they work well.

john_83

American made

ihear a lot of talk about not trusting american made boilers but i think Weil and burnham are doing pretty well last time i checked. Weil ultra is a great product i see them going in everwhere, but i guess there being installed on a chance. I dont buy into the whole euoropean tech is better. As an american im proud to say i install american made products especially in todays day and age.

dana_3

syst 2000

the simplest answer to this debate is this. EDUCATION IS THE KEY

dana_3

syst 2000

been doing this now for about 19 yrs. have yet to get logomatic repair parts in the middle of the night

Scott Kneeland

Do you realize that Buderus in Europe only SELL to their INSTALLERS? Hum sounds like System 2000. This is the only way the installer in this country can get price protection from Home Center's or supply houses that insist on selling to everyone.

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Scott Kneeland

I hate to say it but I have changed more V-7 leakers than EK1's and in my area there are many sys 2000.

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Rocky_3

Brookhaven National Laboratories results

Brookhaven is performing detailed analysis of actual system efficiency. This is being sponsored by NORA, the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority et al. There are some pretty interesting results coming out of them. For instance, for heat and hot water production, the EK operates with a system efficiency of around 85%, with an AFUE of 87.5%. A gas MODCON has a system efficiency of 83.6% with an AFUE of 95%, an European boiler WITH OUTDOOR RESET has a system efficiency of 75% with an AFUE of 86.5%, and a regular cast iron boiler with a hot water tank has a system efficiency of 55% with an AFUE of 81%. Like I said way back up at the top of this post: If you put away your preconceived ideas of what a boiler looks like and how it should operate, and REALLY look at how an EK works, it may turn some heads. I used to be a cast iron guy. I thought, "Here in Alaska by golly we NEED some cast iron and water volume. A little mass in the **** so to speak." But after I REALLY started looking at the EK, I honestly could not find any fault with their logic. As far as parts go, 95% of them are off the shelf stuff. And, as far as being "in the inner circle", shoot, all it takes is a training class and a credit app to become a dealer, so whats the big barrier to entry? If it works, (and it does)why wouldn't anyone out there want to offer their customers another good option?
Just my .02 cents worth.
Happy hydronicing,
Rocky

Unknown

Boilers in EU

Scott,

All boilers in Germany are sold direct. The manufactures have 20-30 salesmaen that call on the country... which is about the same square miles as NY State. The contractor travels to the manufacture (up to 2 hours) to pick up said boiler (or repair parts) and then still has to go and get the copper and steel parts to hook it up. Of course, if you wantr the manufacture to deliver, you have to wait until the day of the week (or the actual week) they will be in your area.

Here maufatures can't feesably call, inventory, deliver, design, sell, train, carry our AR and trouble shoot across the country. That is what Wholesalers and reps are for.

Different local, different way of business.

Of course in EU you pay much more for product even though it comes directly from the MAN because it includes all the stuff the reps and wholesalers do for us.

If we want to compare, lets put all the apples on the table.

regards,

Steve

The Wire Nut

Is it that much more?

I only ask because I seem to recall an article on the Vitodens in a German homeowner magazine where they were comparing heating system costs... the complete Vitodens 200 + BOP package was something like Euro3,600. At the time (2004), the exchange rate was much more favorable than it is today.

There are also internet web sites that'll list prices for various boilers. For example, Heizungs Discount lists a base Vitodens 200 + mounting set + vent pipe for about Euro 2,300. I doubt there is any kind of real warranty, etc. (i.e. caveat emptor) but that Vitola is a lot less expensive than list prices I have seen at Able and other distributors in this country, even after adjusting for the painful slide in the value of the dollar.

BTW, they sell Buderus, MAN, Wolf, and other heating systems, so it's not as if this is a Viessmann-specific issue. I don't know what your costs are for a oil-fired Buderus G115 + Logomatic controller, but Euro 2,000 (~$2,700) sounds pretty competitive.

So I guess I am not convinced that the distribution system is as tightly regulated nor are the prices as high as you describe. Perhaps the installers mark the parts up a lot more?

The larger geographic scope of the USA, transportation, etc. would warrant higher prices here than in Europe where everything is closer together. Whether you use representatives or employees, you have to pay for representation.

The Wire Nut

I saw the presentation also...

... so bear with me for a moment. IIRC, Dr. Butcher did not sample every boiler on the market, "just" representative ones. I put that in quotes, since they tested quite a few boilers! Thanks, BNL, NORA, etc!

Not to give Tom and his staff more grey hair, but I think it would help if more boilers by system type were looked at since a single data point for every "system type" may be representative or an outlier. Without the data, you just don't know.

Are you sure about the gas mod-con efficiency reference, BTW? I seem to recall one condensing gas boiler (not a modulating one) that had the seasonal efficiencies you quoted, but I'm happy to wrong.

In the presentation I saw, the high-mass oil-fired Euro boiler had a seasonal efficiency of only 1.1% less than the EK2000. If standby losses of the EU boiler were lower (i.e. better insulation, lower internal temperature, etc.) then the seasonal efficiency difference would be even smaller.

And that's the rub, plant efficiency isn't just a question of the boiler efficiency... it's the efficiency of the plant as a whole. For example, with a low-temp RFH system, a boiler that can tolerate low return and internal temperatures is a real plus. However, a low-temp capable boiler has little efficiency benefit for high-temp systems, etc.