2 Pipe Steam

john_27

The best way to think about this question is to consider the system efficiency and comfort of each system. I have 1 steam boiler, 3 hot water boilers, and a hot air system on my property. Each is useful in its own way. The steam system heats perhaps a 20,000 plus building. One of the other fellows on this thread has had it under his care. The three other hot water systems serve 2 buildings and a greenhouse. Steam would not work in these applications. In the last building, I have central air/heat. This is probably the least comfortable of the three. Steam takes more maintenance than the hot water systems, but is certainly doable in a larger application.

Unknown

steamhead...

To reduces the variables on this club in question.... With the previous steam system, ALL the radiators had trv installed back in the 80's... Yes, there are improved ones now. The repaired buried pipes are abandoned. All new copper pipings installed which allow zonings and comfort for the tenets upstairs... You are right, not every job is a candatie for converison and it take a pro like us to know it... Last two steamers replacment I did, I didn't even bothers to push for converison due to system and cost wise... As for u as well others, I do value ur opinions...

ER

rads

I may be a lowly homeowner but i'm pretty sure that the nice, efficient, low temp HW system will move A LOT less BTU's out of the rads.

How efficient is that HW system if you need to run it at 180 vs. 120?

Eric

Steamhead (in transit)

The 1980s- that says a lot

Dan's seminal book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" came out in 1992. For at least 30 years before then, information on steam systems was very hard to come by (ask me how I know that ;-) ), so the craze to convert them to hot-water got started. I know of one supply house in Baltimore that actually sent a man to the Library of Congress during that period, since that was the only place they could come up with anything! Dan was the first to put everything together in one source, and look what has happened since then......

Anyway, putting TRVs, outdoor reset etc. on a distribution system that is not in good shape is like putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound. It doesn't do much good, on steam or hot-water. But there are a lot of knuckleheads that know how to sell these things. Then the system doesn't work any better, then the co-op or condo board calls someone else, etc. etc. etc.

This kind of knuckleheading-the-steam-system-to-death happened a lot in the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s. Not everyone who participated in this was a knucklehead though, as it was so hard to get any kind of good information on steam systems.

With the advent of better controls, better venting techniques, and most of all better understanding of steam heating, I think we'll see efficiency gains on steam similar to what we've seen with hot-water.... especially if the American boiler makers get off their collective butt and bring some higher-efficiency steamers to market like they have in the U.K. and Canada. Whoever does so first will be able to sell them right off the truck before they even reach the wholesalers'!

We can't let go of the fact that a pound of hot water will deliver anywhere from 10-60 BTUs depending on the delta-T being used, but a pound of steam will deliver 970 BTUs! We have to get the heat from the boiler to the radiators, but the Dead Men have shown us how to do so efficiently. OK, some of the Dead Men's boilers weren't that efficient, especially round ones, but they could distribute heat with less than a pound of pressure, no pumps or fans and no danger of freezing!

And I know you know that I value your opinion too.



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Unknown

very true

I was the kid working on that system as well others, I was taught what my dad knew as well my uncle that "broke" me in the field.. I did ask the supply homes for books on steam systems and they gave me the look... After replacing few more steamers and the private club steam boiler, lo and behold...Dan's book came out and went to his one of his first traveling semiars.... I did run into a lot of currents with my dad and others about re doing the system to make it right which is the only way.... Now, I'm on my own and customers, as time go by, other companies have given me steamer jobs as they were told to stay away from them...

Steamhead (in transit)

From a business standpoint

I think you're right where you need to be. Other companies referring steam jobs- doesn't get any better than that.

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John Ruhnke

Greatings form Montreal!!

Steamhead,

I dont dislike steam systems. I have repiped and updated many with good results. The clients were happy with the steam system afterwards. I am starting a conversion of steam to warm water on Monday. I have told the client about the wall. I fear he might c ome here and read some of the posts. I am defending conversions because number one they have been very successful in my area and I believe in them. Number two I didnt want my client to read some of the negative posts and get nervous. I found myself defending conversion. For my client conversion is the best solution. He has a lot of big pipes taking up ceiling height in his basement. He wants to reclaim some of this space. A conversion will do this.

I am in Montreal on bussiness. I was supposed to come home yesterday but they closed all of the airports. So I am here another day. I am happy about it because Montreal is fun. Its like being in Europe with all of the French speaking people. Everyone is so friendly.

I was invited to Honeywell here in Montreal to see there new line of radiant controls. They are very impressive! Tekmar is going to have something to worry about.

John Ruhnke
JR@ComfortableHeat.com

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frank_25

I don't agree with your opening, "I may be a lowly homeowner". Without you we are nothing. It's your property that we work in and that is where we make our living, ergo, our $$$. You are welcome here to read and post and learn the thought processes that go into our jobs. Bt you guys must remember this. You have changed your boilers how many times? Once, twice, three times? We do it for a living. We install more boilers in a week than you've seen in a lifetime. Certainly you may understand the theory, but we know the practicle end. But what do I know, I'm just a plumber. BTW I am indeed a Licensed Master Plumber, but I have more time in boiler installation than anything else. I've done hundreds of tons of single family homes and many schools, churches and apartment houses