2 Pipe Steam

John Ruhnke

Hi Everyone,

I once posted about saving 50% by switching from steam to warm water heating. This is in a conversion project. Everyone got mad at me and accused me of overstating things. I just read an engineering report and they saved more like 68%. That means when switching from steam to warm water it will cost you 3 times less in fuel bills. Wait I'm wrong again, MORE THAN THREE TIMES LESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10 boilers in ten different schools were converted from steam to warm water and saved an average of 68% in fuel bills!!!!

I am quoting this from the ASHRAE Journal July 2006 Page 51. This is on Professionally Engineered and monitored projects.

Proper data logging was done.

Now I ask you again, What about converting from steam to warm water?

Don't you want to save an average of MORE then 3 times less in fuel bills?

John Ruhnke JR@ComfortableHeat.com

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DennisK

2 Pipe Steam

I have a 100+ year old house with a Webster Modulation 2 Pipe system with the original (I think)boiler-oil fired converted from coal. There have been some unfortunate changes made to the system, which results in some sloshing, hissing, and some (but not extensive) cold spots. Someone actually attached copper to the steam risers in some places and hooked it up to slant fin. It's amazing that we get heat out of this thing in those places. In another place, the steam pipes were moved...not good.

I wish to convert to Gas, so as to recapture the space in the basement that the oil tank occupies. Should I stick with the steam, convert to hydronic? I have gotten various opinions.

Dave

John Ruhnke

Convert to warm water........

Dave,

I would convert that system over to warm water with outdoor reset, maybe even a condensing boiler if you have gas. You should save close to 50% in fuel bills if it is done right. Use Danfoss valves on all of the radiators. It will be super comfortable you will love it!

JR

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Maine Ken

Blasphemy!!!!! And twice in one day to two different people, for shame for shame for shame

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John Ruhnke

Efficiency.........

Ken,

For every two or three degrees you drop in water temperature you save 1% in efficiency. A steam boiler has to run at 212. That is very unefficient.

Saving money with anything over steam should be very easy to do.

JR

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Brad White_9

Economics 101

Everything an engineer might do ultimately has to have a demonstrable financial payback. Not that this is the deciding factor, but in order to assist an owner and at least give them the options and information on which to make a decision...

If an owner wants to spend money that will not be recovered for some time that is their choice. Altruism has a price and it is their money. But the effort has to be made.

That said, tearing out an otherwise workable steam system and replacing it with a hot water system no matter how efficient has a price tag attached to it, compared with tuning up a steam system or even replacing the boiler as well. Given we do not discuss price here, each of you can do the math yourselves. Each must be "costed out".

Savings in energy is a matter of not just prime efficiency but of modulating rather than on-off control, setback of temperatures/curves of course... all of the things we all know.

Will a good hot water system cost less to operate versus a good steam system (each at their personal bests)? I would have to answer yes.

Will the difference in savings be recovered in a reasonable amount of time? Only the design professional and the owner can decide. The design professional has to do the homework so the informed owner can decide...The Owner knows for themselves what their budget is, what their expectations are, the cost of borrowing money and what a resonable timeframe for financial recovery might be.

Personally in my experience, most of the time sticking with a steam system and improving it is far less costly. This may change with particulars and rising fuel costs but the point remains: You have to do the math.

My $0.02

Brad

DennisK

Clarification

Are you talking about tearing out the mains and risers, or using these for a conversion to hot water? I didn't think that the latter was really that expensive.

Dave

John Ruhnke

Two pipe is easier.........

Brad,

Changing over a two pipe steam to hot water is easier then you think. You can use all of the same pipes. No holes into the shetrock are needed. Only the condensate returns below the water line really have to be changed. The savings are huge!! Lets look at dropping the water temps from an average of 212 to an average of 150 degrees. This is not even considering outdoor reset or condensing boilers. 212 minus 150 equals 62. Divide that by 2.5 and you get 24.8%. Yes that is 24.8% right off the bat. Now figure a sophisticated outdoor reset control and a modulating, condensing boiler and the savings are higher. 50% should be a easy savings number to hit. Considering that a 2300 square foot house could be changed over for around $20,000. Thats just a hyperthetical number of course. That is including everything to make it work. They could save $2000 a year in fuel bills. In ten years the system paid for itself. Also the system would be a lot more comfortable! Comfort is important too!

As an added bonus you could get a higher price for the home to if you sold it!

JR

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John Ruhnke

Leave the pipes!

Dave,

You only need to change some of the pipes in the basement. All the mains and risers could stay.

JR

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DennisK

I have been told by some that if I convert to hot water heat using the same pipes that they will leak, or the system will not work right. I have also been told that you can't just T off with hydronic the way they do in steam, and so there is alot of tearing up walls to change over.

Dave

John Ruhnke

Nonsense...............

Dave,

In my area, steam to hot water conversions are done often. I have not heard of any major problems. A few small leaks here or there. They are repaired after the water test. I never heard of anyone having to repair or fix a system that has passed the testing phase. They last for years with no problems. The steel was much better back then. It can last for 100's of years. I have worked on steam systems installed in the mid 1800's that had piping in great condition. You need to consult with someone who has done it before. Don't listen to all of those people who never tried it. A proper size pump is important. Danfoss valves or equivelent thermostatic valves are needed. It is also important to examine the piping first. You want to only use pipes in good condition. Look for signs of water hammer damage as this can eat the pipes from the inside out. Below the water line a lot of corrosion happens. Those pipes should be changed too.

JR

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Steamhead (in transit)

Dave, once in a while

we get this same question. Yes, you have to get the water in a steam boiler to the boiling point for steam to work. But there is a lot less water involved in a steam system, so that makes up much of the difference. Plus there is the parasitic cost of pumping the water in a hot-water system. No pump is used in gravity-return steam, like your Webster Modulation system. BTW, we have a customer with this same system- I expect to get some fuel-savings figures on it next summer.

As far as I know, there has never been an apples-to-apples comparison of a properly functioning steam system with a properly functioning hot-water system in the same building. Every one I've seen has involved a steam system in need of repair and with an old, inefficient boiler. That is not a fair comparison.

You can use Danfoss TRVs- or any other make rated for steam- on your Modulation System radiators. Tunstall can replace the stem assemblies on almost any valve with one that changes it to a TRV. This would save lots of labor.

Gordon and I have customers with steam systems where we have saved them over 30% on their fuel consumption by just getting the basics right. That's the most cost-effective method I know of. Here's a link to one such job:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=29563&mc=59

For more pitfalls you risk in this type of conversion, go here:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=22

If you're in the Baltimore area, please contact me! Follow the link below.

"Steamhead"



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John Ruhnke

Steam has more unwanted heat transfer.........

Dave,

Lets look at the unwanted heat transfer through pipes in crawl spaces and cold walls. This is a loss in efficiency. When Overall Efficiency is measured I will be able to prove my point. Now it is just a hunch that makes sense. Lets look at the heatloss of bare exposed pipe. At 210 degrees a bare pipe loses heat at a rate of 212 btu's per foot. At 150 degrees that same pipe is losing 104 btu's per square foot. You are cutting your system side efficiency heatloss's in half by switching to warm water at 150 degrees average verses steam at 212 degrees. Add up all of the piping leaving the boiler and running through unconditioned spaces and you can see what I mean. You can move the heat from the crawl spaces and boiler room up into the conditioned spaces where it belongs.

JR

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Brad White_97

You do not have to convince me, John

My only point is that each situation has to be taken on it's own merits. I have designed several conversions such as you suggest but each had at least an economic basis. Not all made sense economically but were all performed. At least the Owners knew of the cost/benefit ratio going in.

John Ruhnke

Try this experiment..........

Stand in a boiler room that has steam. Then go to another boiler room with outdoor reset controls and stand around for a while.

I bet that you will find that you are sweating bullets in the steam boiler room, you will want to leave right away. In the warm water boiler room with outdoor reset I bet you are comfortable, nice and warm but not to hot.

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Brad White_97

Wrong....

I stood in a steam-fired boiler room and a hot water-fired boiler room and they were both blazing hot... in the middle of July no less! And neither of them were running, so?

gerry gill

just fix the steam issues

and invest your money where you get the best payback...THE BUILDING ENVELOPE...if i put an old coal conversion burner in a tight home, it will use less gas than the best water boiler put in an old drafty house..moral of the story..treat the envelope so the heater comes on as infrequently as possible..fix the present system for comfort reasons..my 2 cents.

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John Ruhnke

errrrrr!!

Errrrrr!!

JR

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Brad White_97

To Errrrrr! is human...

to forgive, Bovine.

(i.e.: Don't have a cow, John!)

=:^)>

Brad White_97

Amen Brother!

Tighten the envelope and pass the BTU's!

You got to the root of it, Gerry.

John Ruhnke

Very good idea.........

Brad,

That is just good engineering. That is why you are a good engineer. Cost comparisons are important. I do them to. If the client wants it. Often they buy my services based on how clean the job will look and on how comfortable the heating system will be. A lot of my clients have a lot of money and are interested in comfort first and efficiency second. Because of the skyrocketing fuel costs even my own wealthy clients want to save money in fuel now. It just isn't there only concern.

JR

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Unknown

my expericnes..

I've done steam to hot water converisons and never a major problems.. Everyone see the differrnce in the engery usage of 30% or more... Even the private golf club had over 50% less usage, that was before the reset control! As everyone said, every job is differnrt and the bottom line is tighten the envelope and get a pro that knows these systems, not forced air companies or handyman's outfit...

Mad Dog_2

Where's the job, Dave?

Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Won't even try to say it better, Brad

Mad Dog

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Christian Egli_2

A hot debate for those who can swim

I notice Dave never said his system did not acceptably heat his home neither that it was inexplicably expensive. He only wants the square footage under the oil tank. Perhaps moving the tank is all that's needed

At worse, he's only facing a boiler change out, a change out from probably the original machine, no less.

A modern gas boiler replacement is straightforward. First find a reputable company that knows and loves steam heat. Make sure you get a new boiler sized to your currently installed radiators, not the currently installed boiler. Meanwhile, during the new install, make sure you think of looking into the wet portions of the returns, and make sure you check, fix and replace any faulty radiator thermostatic traps and main traps. Agree to have the system cleaned. As a bonus, have perhaps some thermostatic valves added and perhaps an outdoor reset control system.

The minor problems you described should disappear with some maintenance work. Also, at this point, you should have a system with perfectly acceptable efficiency. The Webster stuff is some fine equipment. Ask your steam guy lots of questions about the steam traps, this is real important to system efficiency. Brands matter a lot here.

Buy the books. We got steamheat. Then interview several steam people.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-109

Note, that a minimal conversion from the large piped steam system to just a hot water boiler will not give you the efficiencies you will read about in the brochures about the condensing features the new hot water boilers promise. Your old system converted in such a way will not operate at any better efficiencies than the simple maintenance on the current steam system will give you.

Steam is a gas, like air. Water has nothing in common with it. What would you think of someone proposing to convert your hot air heating system by simply plugging the registers and filling the ductwork with heavy water? Why change the air ducts? Pipes are pipes, right? Don't even bother cleaning out the dirt laying in your air returns.

A converted water system is yours to drown in.

Steamhead (in transit)

For those who haven't seen it

here's the other thread Maine Ken refers to:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=38264&mc=13

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John Ruhnke

Understanding hydronic conversions........

Christian,

You need to hire an expert to do the conversion, not anyone can do it. I took a seminar from Burnham boilers on this subject. Prisco Panza my main supplier has done it in his own house and lives with it today. His fuel savings are huge! Prisco recommends converting to everyone that can do it. Not every job can be converted. You need to examine the system first. A conversion will last a long time and save you money in fuel bills. First off if you have a steam system with radiators that have push nipples at the top you have a radiator designed for water with steam running through it. Many steam systems are that way. Second off, 15,000 btu's travels through a 1/2 inch pipe at a delta tee of 20. Most condensate returns are sized big enough. Thermostatic mixing valve's at the radiator's will balence out the system. One properly sized pump can handle the load.
A well designed conversion using outdoor reset controls will be very comfortable and save a lot of money in fuel bills. Its safe and it lasts a long time. The steel used way back then is much better then the steel used today.

If the technician is not up on his hydronics or not familiar with conversions then DONT LET HIM DO IT!!

If it isn't done right you could have some major problems on your hands. If you find a great steam guy in your area and can't find anyone confident in conversions then leave the system steam. Never ever let a technician experiment with your home. They will screw it up.

JR

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Steamhead (in transit)

John, I don't know

who Prisco Panza is, but if he had seen some of the disasters I have, I'm sure he would recommend against these conversions as I do. I know of several that have constantly leaked since conversion. My company will not touch them- we don't want the liability. For the same reason, we do not perform these conversions. We can achieve similar energy savings without the risks and excessive costs of converting.

I ask you again, where are your numbers? Where is your comparison of a properly-operating steam system vs. a properly operating hot-water system with the same boilers in the same building? All Steamed Up, Inc's energy-savings numbers are out here for all to see. Where are yours?

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John Ruhnke

50% savings..........

Steamhead,

The savings seam to be around 50%. Prisco saved 50% in his house. That is saving fuel with an addition he added. The house was bigger after the conversion then before. Prisco has a Buderus conventional boiler with the logomatic and Danfoss thermostatic valves. He could have saved more with a good condensing boiler. Call Shelton Winnelson at 1-800-929-6346 and ask for Prisco I'm sure he would be happy to fax you his fuel bills from before and after. The comfort gains are huge to. A friend of mine named Bruce Stevenson has done a lot of these conversions. Some of them are huge commercial projects. Bruce is a very good hydronics contractor, one of the best. Not one of these conversions have leaked after the initial test and install, not one. I don't know who does the conversions in your area but it sounds like they aren't very good at it.

Prisco is the top seller of hydronic supplies in all of Connecticut. He is very sharp. He reccommends, designs and sells a ton of these conversion systems every year. He doesn't know of any problems yet.

JR

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Steamhead (in transit)

John, your 50% means nothing unless

we have a lot more information to validate it, such as:

1. Was the boiler replaced?

2. If so, what boiler was removed and what boiler was installed? If oil, did the old one have a flame-retention burner?

3. Were the steam pipes insulated?

4. Were the steam mains (and dry returns, if Vapor) properly vented? Were there any rooms that were too hot or cold? Any radiators that heated slowly?

5. Was the steam boiler clean inside and out?

6. Were the steam traps (if used) leaking?

7. Was the building envelope tightened up at the same time?

I could go on. The point is, it is irresponsible for you or anyone to post these percentages that sound too good to be true unless you also include exactly how they were achieved, and under what conditions. Also, it is not our job to call whomever to get further info. If you're going to tout potential energy savings, you must include the supporting information. Otherwise it is meaningless.

You will notice that in each of the links to threads I have posted, there is a full description of the job, our methods and the results. Most Wallies follow this pattern also. In this way, our results can be repeated. Fuel savings achieved in Baltimore, Philadelphia or New York can be duplicated in Chicago, Minneapolis-St.Paul or Detroit.

For the record- the case studies I have seen regarding converting an ailing steam system to hydronic, where the boiler was not replaced, show a savings of only 25%. Most of this is due to better heat distribution. I don't consider these comparisons valid since the steam systems involved were in bad shape before conversion. We have regularly exceeded that 25% figure and gotten near-perfect distribution by making the needed repairs and upgrades to steam systems without converting them. This is much less risky and expensive, and we can guarantee that the system will continue to operate properly and not spring a bunch of leaks. Our customers appreciate that.

Dave- keep your Webster system steam. When it's running properly it will amaze you with its evenness and efficiency.




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John Ruhnke

RE:

Steam Head,

You asked for the information, I told you how you could get it for free. If you want me to collect the info personally from Prisco then there is a fee involved. I'm very busy and am spending to much time here. Don't forget this is not a project of mine. I am not selling a conversion here. I am only recomending it to someone else who most likely doesn't even live in my area. All the info you want is just a phone call away. Pick up the phone and call Prisco. He has all of the data and can get you all of the info to back up what I am saying. Many others have saved 50% to and have proof of it. If you are a client and need some of this info I would be happy to provide a few testimonials with my estimate. I will provide you with all the proof you need then.

Reread my post I mentioned what type of boiler it is.
Reread another post I mentioned how the science of combustion works and you can save money with a low temp water system that has outdoor reset. 50% is easy to acheive over steam. I will state that these are all before and after comparisons. Noone is going to spend the money twice. Noone is going to fix the steam system and then convert to warm water. I would estimate that 1/2 of the 50% savings comes from faulty steam problems. I will guess that a efficiency comparison of a proper running steam system done by Steamhead vrs a Conversion done by me with a Buderus boiler and outdoor reset would be around 25%.

JR

JR

JR

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Steamhead (in transit)

John, those questions

apply to any conversion. But since you brought it up, what kind of boiler did Mr. Panza have before he got the Buderus?

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Christian Egli_2

What's good enough for the Empire State is good enough for me

John, I am not sure where you're going with this. Posts I've read of yours tell me you are interested in the competitive nature of producing top performing jobs. That in itself is worth an honorable mention because many people are plainly satisfied with mediocrity.

Hot water heating works just fine, there is no doubting this. To work properly and with all the promised efficiency, any system such as hot water heat has to be designed as a whole. A properly sized boiler, properly piped to the proper radiation. Here, details matter a lot to the overall success, we all know that.

Keeping that in mind, there is no way you can just exchange a boiler on a steam system and pretend you have the proper piping for hot water. Layout and sizing alone have nothing in common. Then, there's the radiator issues. Steam is 1000x super powerful, a small steam fed radiator will do what only a large one filled with hot water can handle. To compensate for this, you necessarily have to increase hot water temperatures. Bye bye condensing mode.

When we talk about a new, efficient and proper hot water install we don't have in mind a system that consists of miss-sized parts haphazardly stuck together. It's not the same thing and it doesn't work the same way. Any such converted plant will never achieve performance and efficiencies anyone would be proud to brag about. At best, they're a disappointment. At worse...

For the sake of preserving the reputation of hot water heating, I would not ever want a job of mine connected to such cosmetic surgery. It's a breast implant waiting to burst.

I can show you plenty buildings here in my town that had steam. First conversion was to hot water. Second conversion was to forced air. Thirdly, the original owners left the building in frustration and regret the steam or cover their shame with denial. I can also show you plenty projects with properly maintained steam that are still, today as ever, very economical buildings to heat with happy long time established businesses. These buildings never departed from a properly designed system, that's the key.

Wouldn't you think the Empire State Building would trip over itself in a rush to convert to hot water if it were such a good idea to abandon steam? Same with so many industrial buildings. Even in Europe, many large systems and buildings run on over pressurized hot water at 250, 300F, compensating to get enough heat to move. Compare that to 212F steam in the Empire State, which is worse according to you?

If you have an in with your Burnham dealer or whoever else, I would let them know that conversions are risky to their reputation and the reputation of hydronic heat, while they're solid gold to the hot air furnace people.

This is all so much more painful when the solution to just fix and maintain the original steam is so simple. But, of course, bulldozing the entire building and starting from scratch is done all the time -and neither your owners nor your community will ever accumulate wealth while repeating this cycle.

I'm not proud of the garbage dumps we fill, but my trash haulers are experts.

Brad White_98

Gender Change...

That is the term I learned from Yvon Blais, my Burham representative, to describe a boiler changeover from steam to hot water. It is apporopriate in several ways. Same fluids handled differently. Basically the same chassis but with different appendages and trim. Obviously the boiler is one thing but the system as a whole is being forced at a number of levels into usage it was not designed for. Not that it will not work, but that it is at some level a compromise...

Coincidentally, two days ago I was returning from a meeting and walking through Boston's Downtown Crossing. On the street was a woman with a huge Adam's Apple and hands like a linebacker. Hint of a 5 o'clock shadow. Long blonde hair, dress and high heels...This individual was having a conversation with one of our perennial yet sometimes elected politicians of a similar bent...

Anyway, it was immediately apparent that all good intentions aside, the end result is just not the same...

John Ruhnke

Conversions make for quality systems........

Christian,

Obviously you have never lived in a house with a proper conversion or you would never be posting like you are. What matters most is who does the conversion. If it is done right you will have a client for life. 1st off the comfort gains when converting from steam to warm water are huge!! All the people notice is that the system is much better balenced and way more comfortable. The lower the temperature of the heat emmiters the more comfortable the system is. Why do you think there are so many conversions done in my area? Referals!! The people that get the conversion love it! Then a year later they see their fuel bills cut in half! They start to think very highly of you.

Back in the old days everything was oversized. Reducing the output of the radiator for warm water makes them work better. The Danfoss valves balence out the heat for each room. In my area I am hearing nothing bhut good things.

The empire state building couldn't convert because of all the weight of the water on the lower floors. 2.31 pounds per foot! The high pressure would burst open the joints.

JR

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Brad White_98

Empire State Building

Like any high rise, hot water can be used and often is. Pressures are segregated into groups of floors such that each remains within the appropriate pressure limit. If it were to be converted, the appropriate surgery would have to be done, of course. But then the walls would have to be insulated or the radiation increased to balance out the equation...

Given the depth of the building, the skin losses relative to floor area are fairly minor. Compared to ventilation loads, skin losses are minor. Besides, the cooling system is in fact water-based. Pressure is a factor to be dealt with not a road block.

But this illustrates my salient point: The Owners have decided that converting would not make economic sense in their case. If it did, they would have. Because it does not, they have not. These are folks that use "Net Rentable Square Feet" as sacraments.

John, I would never deign to state the housing history of a poster, Mr. Egli or otherwise, based on his excellent posts.... unless it allows me to say that you have never lived in a well-tuned steam system house within driving distance of Steamhead or Mad Dog?

Hydronically Yours,



Brad

Unknown

my first

Back in 1979, when I was a kid, doing my full time service man,taking over my uncle's place, I "sold" my first converison job under my father's supervison.... Ever since then, change over in small town buildings, houses, private clubs.... Didn't have any problems, enegry savings were huge, comfort level increased. The only regrets was customers said was they didint do it sooner.... Yes, there are pitfalls and any expericed wetheads will know where to look and correct it before its become a disaster... Yes, I've seen converted jobs done badly due to lacks of understanding of hdyronic system done by forced air and handyman's ,even plumbing companies where they think pipes are just pipes....

Steamhead (in transit)

In order to properly assess your results

we would need to know what type of boiler was replaced, what the condition of the existing system was, etc. etc. as stated above.

In the 1970s and 1980s we were still replacing a lot of old coal-converted boilers. Especially in the case of round ones, these things could be horribly inefficient- sometimes as low as 40% according to one of my Dead Men's Books. So any replacement boiler would have produced a remarkable fuel saving over an old one of this type. This is true whether the system is converted- or not.

I have heard of cases where replacing an old round steam boiler with a modern steam boiler cut fuel consumption in half. But I don't have the exact numbers so I don't make that big a deal of it here.

John seems to think that if you have a steam system, the only way you can get better efficiency is to convert it to hot water or tear it out. Many of us have shown that this concept is totally wrong, and have supplied the energy-saving figures and the details of the work we did to back up our position. We understand these older systems, and have been able to drastically reduce our customers' fuel consumption without taking unnecessary risks with their systems and buildings.

Oh- and would your insurance company pay out if you converted a system and it leaked all over the building? If so, would they later refuse to renew your policy?

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ttekushan_4

yea. just rip out the steam

All I do is economize steam heating systems. I work in an area where there is virtually an equal number of steam systems and circulated hot water. All the buildings are from the same era and of similar construction.

You can go throughout the area and poll building owners and homeowners on the same block with the same buildings with the same circumstances and:

the steam edges out the hot water and with cleaning/balancing/trap & vent maintenance/combustion tuning of each system the steam clearly operates more economically under the same operating circumstances. This real world observation is precisely why I got into it to begin with.

Thankfully, you have made my job harder to sell people on the economizing and tuning process for steam because at least a few come here and read this stuff and tell me that steam's hopelessly "unefficient." The facts bear out that efficiency at the boiler doesn't begin to tell the whole story. My field results and observations are clearly a figment of my imagination. Steam characterists have been gone over and over and over at this site, yet are forgotten with every new post.

And I don't want to hear about your field results in converting a broken, scaled up, 3x oversized, converted coal burner, hundred year old steam boiler all connected with bad traps with a new mod/con water boiler and saying, "See how much more efficient water is?" Without ever telling the customer things like how much a four-way mixing valve costs let alone what happens when it fails.

I'm just going to go about my business as long as there are a few who will understand that steam carries the most energy with the least loss and the least effort of any heating medium and that this is the essence of efficiency. But its a losing battle. What I'm hearing here is that a steam system is old junk and inherently "unefficient" and its many decades of reliable service are worthy of only the scrap heap.

I'm outta here.

BTW, you want to talk unsubstantiated 50% savings? I did a job out there that resulted in an unsubstantiated 45% (homeowner's words) just by cleaning, adjusting and proper trap replacement. Oh that's right. It couldn't be. Its steam, not hot water.

Unknown

this one building

Steamhead, to answer some of ur questions about the conversion... This private golf club where I worked for many years (still do) and know the history of the heating system.. First boiler I worked there was oiled fired steam tube boiler, the huge underground oil tank was leaky, instead of replacing the tank, they went ahead change over to existing gas service with the gas burner.... Boiler started to leaks and replaced with Weil Mclain ( mgb, worst boiler for steam) by differrnt contractor done a shady deal with supply house ( both not in busineess anymore). 8 years later, boiler failed, my former company replaced with the Wiel Mclain LGB boiler ( improved designed) and spent next 2 years breaking up floors repairing leaking pipes, etc... Some of the members said enough is enough, why can't this clubhouse be converted as we did to his home... So, back in 1991, we cahnged over the system,using the same 3 years old boiler, into 6 zones, replacing missing radatiors, adding new radtators to the loads..... The engery usage was down 53% in the following seasons... That was before I hooked up 2 stages tekmar control! Stills have the same single panes windows leaking like a slift. No more $5k or more yearly on the steam system repair....

Steamhead (in transit)

Too many variables on that one

namely: splitting into 6 zones, replacing missing radiators, adding new ones. The heat emitters and zoning strategy changed. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison of distributing heat by steam as opposed to hot water. At least the boiler was the same so that's one variable out of the way.

From your mention of leaky pipes and other things, it's clear that steam system needed work to begin with, and it obviously had been monkeyed with in the worst way. So it was far from operating at peak efficiency. It's good all the leaks were dug up and repaired before you converted it, otherwise you would have had a disaster which would have been made worse by the higher pressure needed for hot-water. You knew that though ;-) And a 53% reduction in fuel usage is excellent.

But here's the thing:

None of the things you mention are exclusive to hot-water.

You can zone any steam system using methods such as TRVs, zone valves or even several smaller boilers feeding different parts of the building. You can add or remove radiators to match the heating load. You can use outdoor reset and stage-firing on steam. You can use multiple-boiler systems on steam. In many cases you can do more than one of these things, which are all proven energy savers- on steam as well as hot-water.

I submit that by fixing the long-neglected steam system in that clubhouse, and applying the same energy-saving techniques you describe, you would have achieved similar savings without converting it. And I know for a fact that part of their "enough is enough" reaction was due to getting ripped off by knuckleheads.

Several of our projects may come to this stage. On one, we've cut their fuel consumption 32% over the course of last season while fixing the heat-distribution problems they had- and that's without TRVs or other types of zoning, or stage-firing, but with outdoor reset.

I'll certainly keep posting the numbers here as they come in. That's what we're looking for here- hard numbers, and how we achieved them.

To ttekushan- no, it's not your imagination. The only illusion here is that steam cannot be made to work efficiently. We know better than that.

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