An Inconvenient Truth

Brad White_9

OD Reset

Seems like you are doing as well as anyone could, Dan, with that set-up. Integrating solar is sort of like cutting in line -a very efficient line at that- without screwing up the fine balance your Buderus provides. As Mark said, the costs can escalate rapidly and the ROI can extend for some time.

One might consider solar in your case as a parallel system for when the weather outside is marginal, or as others have said, domestic HW is a more predictable demand. Save your Buderus for home heating and fill in DHW as you need to.

My $0.02

Brad

S Ebels

I have to agree

Using the output of a solar collector would best be used for DHW production in this case. High temp, or even medium temp emitters don't lend themselves to the BTU's you can generate with one or two panels.

You can run some rough payback numbers if you know the $$.$$ you spend in the off season (non heating) for DHW production. Then get in touch with someone who knows solar and how to integrate it into your system as Maine Ken suggested to arrive at a ROI timeframe.

Just a suggestion here but you will want to check out the pros and cons of flat panel vs evacuated tube collectors. You will probably find that the peak output of the falt panel type is greater but the evac tubes are more efficient at harvesting marginal, higher latitude and/or filtered light.

S Ebels

Here's hoping

I hope a good energy crunch will put guys like that out of business. Really, I do! That's an awful thing to wish on anyone but that company does nothing but give radiant heating and the hydronic industry as a whole, a very black eye. I have seen some of the systems sold by them even out here in Northern Michigan and they for the most part, are a waste of pex.

gerry gill

let me guess...they kept records 600,000 years ago..

nm.

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Ron Huber

Solar Seminar

> Just got back from watching this eye-opening film

> about global warming. I feel like I have been

> lied to all this time. I learned a lot of stuff

> I never knew. It made me want to run out and buy

> a hybrid car now--immediately. I already have

> the most efficient heating system I could afford

> at the time: Buderus G215 with indirect tank,

> outdoor reset and indoor reset. But the film got

> me thinking, what would be involved with

> attaching solar panels to a hydronic heating

> system? Is this even advisable in the Northeast

> and where do I go to find the experts? Anybody

> have any experience with solar panels?

>

> Thanks,

> Dan



I will try to attach this training seminar brochure, if it does not go through send me your e-mail addreses and I can send it that way. On June 20th at the Margate Hotel in Laconia NH our store, Laconia Winair, is putting on a Viessmann Solar training class from 8 am to 3:30 pm

hr

I appplaud any and all that seriously

consider solar to supplement their DHW and or heating loads Regardless of what movie inspired their choice.

Every contractor on this list should be walking this path. It dovetails so well with hydronic heat.

Build the system on paper first. Define your loads and temperatures required. Play with a heat loss and design program and determine the output from your emitters at various supply temperatures.

The SDHW makes the most sense, is affordable and an easy first step into solar.

Build onto your system as timer and money allows. Shop for used equipment. Good solar panels don't wear out, as they are glass aluminum and copper for the most part.

Keep your eyes open for used large capacity insulated storage. This is the largest most expensive and hardest to find component. Takes up the most space also. It is the key to a solar heating system as you need a place to park BTUs for heating loads.

Retrofit radiant if you can, it works great at solar temperatures.

hot rod

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Unknown

It *can* work great at solar temps. One more reason to get those water temperatures down as low as you can!

JimGPE_23

Oh, I defiantly side with the objective scientists

After all, poll those same scientists and zero, that's right, zero of them would stand up and admit that evolution is a flagrant violation of the laws of thermodynamics, not to mention good ol' common sense. (Entropy always increases - except, of course, during the period of evolution...).

If that doesn't convince you they're unbiased and all about the scientific method for evaluating theories, I don't know what will.

Goodness.

Dan_15

Hot Rod, I like your approach very much. I wish I knew who to talk to about designing a system in MA. My system has some particular challeneges, but also some benefits that could integrate well with solar.

At first glance, it seems like solar would never work for space heating my ex-gravity system, which has high water mass and 180* emitters. I have no radiant anywhere. However, I do benefit from my Buderus outdoor reset + indoor reset. I never really get to 180* except in the dead of winter. There are probably a goodly number of days that my boiler does not even get past 140* for space heating because of OD reset. The Buderus controller does a really good job keeping the temps down. So maybe solar could work there.

I would probably benefit by using solar for my DHW. I've already got a brand new indirect tank--why not just store the energy in there.

I wish I could figure out how to put all these pieces together and use solar as a supplement in conjunction with OD reset, to squeeze as much efficiency as possible out of the system.

Thanks for your thoughts.

hr

Help is out there

I agree solar temperatures could probably work in your case. I've seen those evac tube systems produce 160 degree temperatures. I fired up a 16 tube array for a friend last saturday. Used his Hardy outdoor furnace as the storage vessel. By noon he was seeing 150 from that array.

For help try www.findsolar.com they have an ad in Solar Today magazine for "find a pro' in your state.

Siggy designs solar hydronic systems at www.hydronicpros.com this is a link to his own system.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/7df8232b040d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____


Also the boys at www.radiantengineering.com have done some fine solar designs across the country. Contact Andrew, Bob, Dale or any of the team there. Mike at aspensolar.com would be another. The RPA website has some solar designers and contractors listed.

Clarence Beaver of Beaver brothers in NC has been doing systems since 1919 try him at 704 637 9595. Solar Today mag list design folks also.

hot rod

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Wayco Wayne_2

Good Stuff Hot Rod

I sat next to mister Beaver at the RadFest East Dinner. He and his family were mondo nice people. He got talking Solar and there was no doubt he had the experience and the expertice. I got an open invite to visit to see some of his solar jobs. As soon as I clear my schedule.... I just got a call today from a HO who has a house in progress with pex in the basement slab and pex in gypcrete upstairs. He wanted to know if I could help him install some Geo thermal with solar assist. Boing! Am I interested???? Who boy am I ever. I know I saw some threads with some piping diagrams having to do with this. Guess I'll get searching. WW

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Dan_15

Great resources: Im going to clip and save. Thanks again.

Dave Yates (PAH)

look-see?

Wayne,

Sure would like to tag along(G).

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joel_19

Hey Dan!

Ummm just wondering did you try find a pro on this site ? We started as a solar contractor 30 years ago and now everything has come full circle . If your in our section of the peoples republic we can talk about it. Suplementing your HW is viable. With a very leaky envelope though it might not be viable for heating . FYI geo thermal isn't all it's craked up to be. People actually say it produces no emmisions this is a complete lie. It takes pumps and compressors to get that heat from the ground , with big old electric motors on them and where does the electricity come from.... Now if you had a bank of photo cells a windmill and the geo that would be different.


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Wayco Wayne_2

Road Trip!!!!

Hey Dave, Not a bad idea. I havent considered going, because of time constraints, but maybe I should. So far I've been all talk and no action on this Solar stuff. Always looking in the candy shop window, but noy buying any. WW

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Dave Yates (PAH)

me too

but I'm edging closer to the move and have begun to finalize some of my plans.

I've been studying and reading lots of manuals & downloaded the Viessmann solar installation guide. Lots of good stuff there. Also reading Viessmann's "Heating technology for new buildings" - much to digest.

ISH Germany's theme will be renewable energy! Like a moth to a flame.......

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John R. Hall

Gotta chime in

I visited the Beaver Brothers several years ago to do a story on them. At the time solar was a small part of the article. Now it seems to be an essential part.

Not only are Trip, Mike, and Clarence knowledgable about the business, they are very nice guys, too. I see them every year at contractor meetings and I have no doubt I'll be back in Greensboro to do a follow-up on solar. I'd advise anyone to tap into their brains.

(And ask Clarence about that classic pickup truck he drives on occasion.)

S Ebels

Dan

Here's some basic info on solar from Viessmann. They explain the elementary principles pretty well in this document.

Enjoy and happy hunting

Danhttp://www.viessmann.de/web/germany/com_publish.nsf/Attachmen

S Ebels

Dan

Here's some basic info on solar from Viessmann. They explore the elementary pieces and parts along with what they do in this document.

http://www.viessmann.de/web/germany/com_publish.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/ts-solar-technology.pdf/$FILE/ts-solar-technology.pdf

Dan_15

Excellent link, thanks!

Wonder if Dan H could want to compile all these resources into a single place on The Wall under the heading "Solar".

Terry St.james

Did you Know

that Mother Nature takes care of her own...the Artic...just north of where I live...was once a rain forest all those years ago...maybe ...just maybe...the Artic will be again. And Al Gore...isn't he the guy that interrogated a man named Oliver North about spending 60 thousand dollars on a home security system in his home....when Mr.North explained it was protection from terrorist...Al Gore laughed...terrorists??..he asked...can u name the terrorist he asked North....yes North said...Bin Laden...some how that's not too funny now

Jeff Lawrence_25

Nope

Check this link out.

jp_2

SOLAR!!!!

If you got it; use it!