An Inconvenient Truth

chilly

just wanted to add this link

from Dr. Gray the meteorologist who's been forecasting hurricane activity and highly respected climatologist, Roger Pielke Sr. at the University of Colorado

http://www.denverpost.com/harsanyi/ci_3899807

Brad White_9

Yet

those dismissing data and studies from 30 years ago put remarkable faith in ice core CO2 from 600,000 years ago. Just an observation.

DanHolohan

CAN WE PLEASE

get back to the point. The gentleman asked about hydronics and solar working together.

Brad White_9

Republican what??

John,

Why inject politics into this if it is not a political discusssion? On the other hand, I appreciate your candor.

I am not a Republican, nor a Democrat. The issue has neither an elephant nor a donkey attached to it. The issue may be hijacked for some political advantage, too bad. I am more interested in keeping my objectivity; listening to both sides and allowing each to make their case.

There is ample information on both sides to support what one may choose to believe. I personally do not see anything alarming when I sort out the wheat from the chaff. I see a lot of sound science and geologcally long-term as well as millennial, centrurial and decadial trends ignored or dismissed when they do not support the hypothesis. In my experience with this, there is thus far ample evidence to suggest that man's contribution is minimal and the earth will do as it pleases regardless of the power we bestow upon ourselves.

We grant ourselves power to change the weather. But are really helpless to change the weather. Or predict it.

Respectfully,

Brad

Brian_18

30 yr. change of opinion

John:
My point is, over course of time, even the brightest scientists have to admit they were wrong. ie "the world IS flat". I'm not here to dispute if global warming exists or not. Who's to say that scientists eventually find out our weather is influenced more by sun spot activity than anything else. If we do eventually find out global warming is not from human means, and during that course of time we adapt to use our energy resourses more efficiently, we then we're all better for it.

I merely think there's way too much extremism involved on this topic.

Personally, I believe humans ARE on the right track to CONSERVE our resources. In regards to energy, conservation means more efficient burning, which produces less CO2, less useage, (higher MPG, or tighter building envelope), more use of alt. sources (solar, wind, and do we dare say Nuclear)

that's all

S Ebels

Just like the good parent that you are...........

Always trying to steer your wayward children back to the straight and narrow:)

We need another section of the Wall titled "Political Agenda's and Beliefs" Maybe we could get Bill (not the heating guy) Clinton to moderate it for us.

Having a good day while running heating calcs here in sunny Falmouth, Michigan and I'm enjoying the thrust and parry of this post immensely.

BTW, I'm betting this thread hits 100+

DanHolohan

Yes, it's great fun.

But Dan asked a question that deserves exploration (hydronics married to solar). I think it's timely, and that many of the people who visit here (expecially the homeowners) will gain from the conversation. It's also a topic on which we just might reach agreement.

Mark Hunt

2006


Study

Don't be mad at me.

Mark H

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John Ruhnke

Good example of what is wrong in this country............

JJ,

The press getting the facts wrong again by reporting from the wrong sources. Did you really read this piece? It supports my theory's on global warming.

First off who is the authur quoting? A leading scientist who did some studies? No!! Neither Gray nor Pielke have done a study on global warming. They do not qualify as a source for such a story. 0 studies are against global warming and humans as the cause. Why didn't the author interview one of the scientists actually doing a study on global warming?

Look at what the author says about the opinion of the scientific comunity in general.

He says "Plenty of young people tell me they don't believe it," he says. "But they won't touch this at all. If they're smart, they'll say: 'I'm going to let this run its course.' It's a sort of mild McCarthyism. I just believe in telling the truth the best I can. I was brought up that way."

Why did the author quote plenty of young people? Because they are young and haven't the chance to fully get involved yet. Their brains are still holding outdated college information, so they remain sceptical.

What about the older scientists? They all believe that the earth is getting warmer and humans are the cause that is why. Only a minority of the young ones disagree.

This article is so slanted against the truth it isn't even funny.

JR

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S Ebels

Solar is good

You are correct in saying that you have done about as good as you can with your heating plant. Excellent combo but if it were me, I'd go back and address any and all building envelope "issues" that you may have before investing in solar. The payback will be quicker using anyone's math but a solar salesman's.

That being said, I spoke with Paul Ross the owner of Hydronic Alternatives at the Viesmann meeting in April and he described the following system.

This was a new 5 unit apartment building of approximately 5,500 sq ft. The building was constructed of insulated concrete forms so infiltration and R-value are great to say the least. A Vitodens with integrated Viessmann solar was installed to provide all the heating and DHW for this building. Paul said he had heard that the boiler wasn't needed for heating until November 2 this past year and the whole building required only 400 gallons of LP gas through the end of March. That's pretty darn good! Where was this building? Not in a mid America loaction but up in Vermont. That should answer your question about the feasibility of solar in Northern climates.

Give the guys at Buderus a call and I'd bet they have drawings on hand that can illustrate how solar can be integrated with your existing system. No doubt that the parent company in Germany has already done this as they are several light years ahead of us here in the USA when it comes to that type of thing.

In case you don't have it, the number, from memory is 800-283-3787. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

John Ruhnke

You brought it up not me.........

Brad,

You brought up an article written by the Republican party to give there stance that Global warming is overblown.

I am a Republican myself. Though I am thinking about switching.

JR

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DanHolohan

Thanks.

To the point, specific, and wonderfully helpful.

S Ebels

Just gave Dan some anecdotal evidence.....

See- Solar is good at the top.

I'd really like to learn all the details of that system. Maybe if Paul Ross is lurking around here, he could provide them.

DanHolohan

Guys,

it's starting to sound like, "I know you are, but what am I?" I'd hate to lose this thread over a political battle.

The gentleman was asking about solar and hydronics working together. So far we have some great input from Steve Ebels and Jim Burke. Care to add anything to what they've said? Thanks.

Brad White_9

What article?

JR- I did not mention any article? I have no idea what you are talking about. Please clarify. Not asking an apology for I take no offense. Just clarify what you mean, please.

Thanks

Brad

John Ruhnke

Wrong study..........

Mark,

This is the wrong thing to read. It is written by the politicians who are trying to ignore the problem of global warming. These aren't scientists that are writing the study. These are politicians trying to make themselves look good.

JR

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John Ruhnke

Sorry Brad it was Mark Hunt.........

Brad,

Sorry it wasn't you that posted the article. It was Mark Hunt. I got it wrong.

JR

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Mark Hunt

John


These are not politicians. About the authors

Just posting dissenting view points.

Mark H

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Garret

NCPA - funded by ExxonMobil

Actually, that organization (NCPA) and that author (David Legates) have been funded by ExxonMobil.

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/article.cfm?contentid=3804&CFID=13072542&CFTOKEN=84180946

John Ruhnke

Political slant...............

Mark,

These articles you are quoting apear on the NCPA's website. I find them to be politically slanted in Classical liberalism.

They basically believe in self government. Self Government can be a good thing at times. I believe that government sticks its nose in to much too. Self Government won't solve the problems with global warming though.

JR

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John Ruhnke

The political slant is wrong to.

> Brad,

>

> Sorry it wasn't you that posted the

> article. It was Mark Hunt. I got it

> wrong.

>

> JR

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 96&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_





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John Ruhnke

The political slant is wrong to....

Brad
I have the wrong political slant. When reading the article it sounded like it was written by the Republicans.

It is posted by the NCPA and they have a political slant towards Classical liberalism.

JR



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Tony_23

Exactly

600,000 years ago... Pure conjecture...

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Dan_15

Thank you! For bringing the subject back home to my original question. I just paid $2.899/gal for 161 gallons of oil that is supposed to satisfy my DHW needs all summer. That's $450 I could have put into my piggy bank for solar heating. Problem is, I have no idea where to start with solar. My system is challenging because of high water mass of an ex-gravity system with mixed emitters. I installed a Buderus G215 a couple of years ago--it was the best I could afford then. No, its not a Vitodens, and no, it doesnt have a variable speed circulator; outdoor reset and indoor reset do help out a bit. But not enough. I'm tired of paying for oil. I'm afraid of paying for gas. Why can't I make my energy myself? Heck, if could erect a windmill in my backyard for my electricity needs, I would do it. (My crazy neighbors would kill me, though, given that they already believe I am rotting their wood fence with the mist from my sprinklers). What sort of infrastructure is needed to hook up solar collectors to a hydronic system? Is it cost-effective in the NE? What's the ROI for such a system? Where do I start? My wife, BTW, loves the idea. Her dad is a geothermal nut.

John Ruhnke

Funded by Exxon Mobile.........

Brad,

Read a post below for the related link.

No wonder the authors say what they say. They and the NCPA is funded by Exxon Mobile.

JR

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singh

Dan

Dan,

Give peter Biondo a call or visit his website.
He's the one to ask about Solar collectors and Hydronics.
He does workshops across the country and is RPA as well.

www.usasolar.net

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John Ruhnke

My wish is to lose this debate.........

Mark,

This is the only debate that I really truelly wish to lose. I love a good debate, I'm sure everyone here knows that.

If someone could prove me wrong and find evidence that contridicts eveything that I have learned about global warming that would be great!!

The alternative is very bad. Our earth is a small tiny dot in the universe. I would hate to see our climate change and sea levels rise. I am scared for my 2 and a half children. (My wife is pregnant again.) I want them to have a better life then I did. I want them to enjoy there future not fear it. I want what is best for them.

From now on I am going to do my part to conserve energy. I will learn about geothermal and solar applications of hydronics and promote them in our industry. I will continue to support Overall Heating Efficiency. I will do my best to contribute. The movie Inconvenient Truth was a huge eye opener for me.

JR

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Mark Hunt

So has


PBS.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

So is


PBS.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

As luck would have it


I just sold a job that will do exactly that. Radiant system with solar integrated into it.

Triangle Tube Prestige boiler, Solar panels by others but we will work the systems together. The solar won't be able to do much in the colder months, but above 35 degrees they will cover the need.

I'll post pics as it progresses.

Mark H

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Maine Ken

Panels with a pre-heat tank before your indirect. Solar heats your domestic before it goes into your existing indirect. Quite simple actually.


This discusion reminds me of one of my favourite college classes "Lying With Statistics"!!!!!!!!!!

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Mark Hunt

Good article


Here.

Mark H

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George Peteya_3

Thanks Mark ...

... for helping your Customer write his own Declaration of Independence, AND working toward the day when Our Country can do the same. Sorry Saudi Arabia, Iran and Venezuela, we don't need any oil today, but would you like to buy some water? Well, I can dream, can't I?

Mark Hunt

He he he


I hope I live to see that day.

This customer said that none of the other heating contractors he spoke to would even consider this type of system. My guess is that they do not understand it so they fear it.

Originally this customer had been given a quote from that infamous internet company for "pex tubing and a Polaris water heater" for his new home. Slab on grade construction with SIPS panels. The "design" called for 10" to 12" spacing and a supply water temp of............140 degrees!

The solar contractor and I will be meeting on Wednesday to compare notes.

Thanks George!

Mark H

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John Ruhnke

Who cares what side you are on!!

Mark,

Who cares what side of the debate you are on. The most important thing is that you are doing many things to reduce energy consumption. Solar, condensing boilers and boiler tuning. I believe in doers much more than talkers.

You are a doer!!

JR

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Dan_15

Mark, what would you do with a non-radiant system. Ex-gravity with 180* emitters. Is there any value for solar in that kind of setup?

Mark Hunt

Who loves ya baby?!


I'm on the conservation side and I sure would like to tell the middle-east to keep their damn oil.

Building smart homes that require less to heat and cool. Who can argue with that??

Mark H



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Brad White_9

Without stepping on Mark's toes, may I chime in?

Any HW system with design temperatures in the 180 degree range will benefit from outdoor reset. With cast iron this will allow you to take the temperature down almost to room temperature on the mildest days, assuming your boiler is protected of course. Because of this, solar temperatures work quite well and may even be higher than 180 on occasion. Key then would be storage, banking the sun for later if you cannot use it when generated. But in short, yes, particularly with outdoor reset, the range of temperatures allows you to meter out stored or instantaneous energy to your emitters, especially on milder days. Those are days by the way when your conventional (non-condensing) boiler is least efficient.

Mark Hunt

Well.......


(here it comes) That depends. Value is subjective and quite honestly, I doubt this would prove to be economically viable.

First I would do EVERYTHING possible to lower the heat loss for the structure. Fiberglass won't cut it, it would most likely have to be foam.

Even then, the existing radiators may not be large enough to work with lower water temps. More or larger ones may have to be installed.

Solar collectors with the biggest (within reason) storage tank you can get. Run the domestic side of the solar up to 140 degrees(when you can) and use an HX to pull heat out of the stored domestic. A tempering valve for the domestic HW to prevent scalding down stream.

The boiler would act as a supplement to the solar heating both the domestic and the system water.

As I said, none of this would be inexpensive and the ROI may take tens of years. Just guessing there.

An awful lot of work.

Hope this helps.

Mark H

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Dan_15

Brad, I've got outdoor reset plus a form of indoor reset (the Buderus room sensor constantly adjusts the heating curve based on room temp). The Buderus controller actually does a pretty good job of pinpointing my heat load and adjusting the boiler temp.

Mark, thanks for being honest--cost is definitely an issue. But let me ask, if my oil burner makes 1.4 GPH and my boiler runs approx 900 hours annually with outdoor reset, what kind of saving would you see using suppelementary solar, or put another way, what percentage of my total oil usage can be replaced with supplementaty solar? Ten percent? More? And to drill down a little deeper--how is that percentage affected by the number of solar collecting days in New England? How many sunny days are needed to really make the thing useful?

I'd love to insulate with foam, but I have been advised that retrofitting existing wall cavities with foam is too risky, especially with old plaster and lathe. And I am not in a position to start tearing open walls.