A Witch Hunt............

Steamhead (in transit)

Still doesn't answer my question

Mr. Drake mentions the Energy Efficiency Action Group as one of only two that were viable. He also mentions energy efficiency as one of RPA's top priorities. Further, he states that sometime in the future a new group will be formed.

So why did they kill the EEAG now, especially since it was still viable? Would it not have made more sense to keep it going until its replacement was ready?

Doesn't make sense to me.....

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bill clinton_3

agree with Ted

Haven't visited this site for a while, but here goes.

I don't know the ins and outs of the events John is talking about, so I have no judgement as to who is right and who is wrong.

I was, however involved a couple of years ago in an action group dedicated to updating the RPA's Standard Guidelines regarding the use of water heaters in radiant systems. A couple of committee members "hijacked" the committee and wanted to take action to remove the standards' reference to the use of "open" combination systems out of concern for the possibility of breeding bacteria (specifically legionella).

There was great resistance from the RPA staff to our doing that. A bloody and exceedingly non-pc battle ensued. Mostly, this stayed within the confines of the committee and we kept at it. Eventually, we got a pretty good result.

Had the plug been pulled on that committee, you can bet I would have brought up the subject here.

Yes, it is good to stay within the bounds of "professional discourse." Not all of us are good at that however. I think a lot of latitude should be given to those stammering with rage and perhaps even crossing the line somewhat into the abusive: They just might have a point.

Bill

DanHolohan

Hey, Bill.

Nice to hear from you!

Dave Yates (PAH)

Well

I was going to remain an observer only, but.....

Sorry Bill, but I disagree. The end result was weak at best. That's why I and several others chose to resign from that "action" group. The lies and half-truths used to forward agendas based on sales, rather than facts, that went un-checked and were allowed to remain - absent any evidence to support them - made the committee's work a sham IMHO.

Had the absurd claims been examined in the light of day and supported with credible evidence by the author(s), the debate could have ended with reasoned conclusions drawn. They were not - in spite of numerous requests to have real evidence brought to the table. Not once.

Although I (and others) copied the contents of the posts and saved them for our permanent records, they were never aired in public (to my knowledge) and remained cloaked behind the committee's password-protected access.

I don't believe the intent to forward our industry while protecting customers' health was the real agenda of the WHAG. If that had been the underlying foundation, the outcome would have been a realistic re-write based on the available facts - facts that haven't yet seen any evidence to the contrary.

As before, you are welcome to present the evidence that proves open systems present no threat to human health. It's been a very, very, very long wait.



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Constantin

Mr. Sleeth disagrees...

... the author of HVAC-Calc recommends users to upsize the heating systems 15-25% over the calculated heat loss while "right-sizing" on the cooling side. If the 25% safety margin we assume Manual J 7th Ed. to have is true, that would result in installs that are oversized by 50% on average. Brilliant.

As far as your comments re: setback recovery, I'm on the same page with you. The supply temp curves I have set would, by definition, restrain the heating system even if oversized.

EdyLogicMstr.

The project that all of the EEAG members voted on (unanimously) was; to pursue John’s HEF and help him prove that radiant heating is more efficient than any other heating system. This direction was approved by the board at the RadFest E. I was never told (perhaps it's in the fine print) there was a limited life span of the action group of two years. Really,,, is that enough time to get anything as worthy as this task done in our spare time? I remember what happened to the Water Heater Action Group. Glad not to have had ANY part of that:-)

The RPA needs to adders this further. Shutting down all of the action groups is just wrong and EVERYONE can see that now that it's been (unfortunately) posted on a public forum.

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Unknown

The offrnding email,,,

had said something to the effect that a minority owned Mfgr. was perhaps able to be granted extra efficiency points on the DOE tag due to the color of their skin. The statement was later recanted because of false information and miisrepresented by the source as an efficiency rating given to HVAC equipment as SEER.

This whole thing has been GREATLY blown out of proportion.

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Tony_23

well.....

I, for one, didn't need to know THAT.

Some things are better left unsaid.

This could've just gone away, and the whole thing been attributed to a difference of opinion. Not now.

You CAN give out too much information.

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Unknown

DF

It's here now and I guess it has to be dealt with as such.

The Action Groups life is to not exceed 2 years? This is news to me.

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hr

There is a bit more to it, Gary

as to how this whole debacle got started. JR knows, as does the entire committe that was on the e-mail list. The board and several of the committe members tried to defuse the issue.

As was noted above, it's really not public business. I'm sure all the committe members know and understand how it got to this point.

Bottom line, the "rules" for how and why an action group or committee works and operates need to be made more clear. Hopefully we can prevent an unfortunate situation in the future by tightening up the boundaries.

Nobody hates John like he has indicated, especially me :)and nobody involved in this process has anything but good intentions for energy efficiency committee. I've spent hours on the phone with John regarding his formula. I know many others have also We all admire his drive.

Certainly the RPA would like to be on the forefront of any energy efficiency movement.

hot rod

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Steamhead (in transit)

Mr. Drake, with all due respect

we still have some questions. I had not planned to post on this thread again but changed my mind after reading the posts from Mr. Clinton and Mr. Yates.

You say: "only the Energy Efficiency and the Electric Radiant Action Groups have had recent member involvement".

We all know, and usually abide by, the principle that if something is working properly you don't mess with it. Since, by your own admission, these groups were still working, would it not have made more sense to keep them working until their replacements were ready?

You say: "The Board plans to establish specific, attainable, short term goals, as specified in the RPA Action Group Handbook. These goals will be assigned to new Action Group's when they arise". "You will see more action on this in the near future"

When do you expect this to happen? Is there a firm date for this, or is it just off in the "future" somewhere?

You say: "the Board is confident that members will find it more rewarding to become involved".

Why? What will be different this time?

You say: "the Board has made a renewed committement (sic) and moved the energy efficiency issue up the priority ladder".

What changes were made to accomplish this?

We're listening.

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Frank

Keep me out of the loop where this issue regarding John's committee is concerned. I think it best to let the parties directly involved stew in those juices and work out a solution.

I resigned from the committee on water heaters when it became clear that a number of absurd claims regarding open systems would not be answered when questioned and that no one was going to insist they be supported by factual information - if any supporting credible evidence could, in fact, be found.

I feel a strong personal conviction regarding that issue and presented the committee with hard copies of solid evidence regarding bacterial amplification and a series of tests that had been conducted over several years that specifically tested for Legionella sero group #1 in residential water heaters. Each of those tests found measurable colonies. It doesn't take a leap of faith to understand that an open system is a natural bacterial amplifier offering every currently known need for the bugs. I disagreed with the direction the committee was obviously headed and did not want my name associated with the end results, so I resigned. End of story as far as I'm concerned and I'm quite content to let it drop.

Codes are slowly heading in the correct direction and I wanted the RPA to be a leader instead of following some distance behind. I have no intention of using the posts from that group in a public forum, but kept them for my own defense if needed.

The RPA does a many great things for this industry. Disagreements will inevitably occur among such a diverse group of passionate folks. Airing grievances in, or on, a public forum will not improve an emotionally charged debate. However, those same grievances - or tirades if you prefer - or non-PC as some have said - can serve a common good if they stir debate within the confines of the group. If a committee member makes or stakes a claim regarding specific performance, efficiency, reliability or safety, they should be held accountable for providing the evidence that supports that claim. The committee chairperson should insist on nothing less and is (or should be) charged with that responsibility. Failing to act accordingly should result in the RPA Board or its Director stepping in to give the chairperson a bit of re-direction. If any committee member fails to support stated claims, they should be barred from participating and/or voting until they can produce the evidence. The committee member(s) making unsubstantiated claims should be offered an opportunity to withdraw the claim. After a given period of time and absent credible evidence that can be verified and refusal to withdraw unsubstantiated claims, they should be dismissed from the committee in order to maintain its credibility.

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Tim Doran

ASHRAE/Exergy

Anyone that is interested in getting involved with an energy conservation effort should keep an ear to the ground for an upcomming ASHRAE committee that will be looking at Low Exergy systems. I'll post more after Quebec in June or as I have it.

Tim D.

DanHolohan

It's not public business

but JR brought it here, looking for a friend. I'll be his friend.

John is one of the most gentle people I know, and certainly one of the most passionate. I was at the first meeting of the RPA Connecticut chapter that he helped start. There weren't more than eight of us there that night, but John had such great hopes for the association, and for the chapter. I can still see the fire in his eyes. What a postitive man he is.

I hope you're all able to work this out, whatever it is. We're not so rich that we can sacrifice good men.

Steamhead (in transit)

Dave, the only reason

I mentioned you was that your post was one of the ones that made me change my mind about posting again. No need to worry about getting caught in a loop.

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ALH_4

?

As I remember, the Overall Efficiency thing was mostly conservation of energy applied to a different control volume. Am I wrong?

We can all save energy, but there is no magical formula to it. Use less. What you use, use wisely. Minor conservation efforts, when applied broadly, have huge impacts. I'll donate a thermodynamics or physics book to the cause.

I dont want to condemn anyone. I would just like to see a more methodical scientific approach to the testing of theories.

-Andrew

Mark Hunt

But


how is it that a boiler that has 3/4 of an inch of insulation glued to a jacket can have nearly the same AFUE as a boiler that has 3" of insulation wrapped around the block? 85% AFUE with 3" of insulation, 84% with 3/4" insulation. These numbers are listed AFUE ratings. How can this possibly be accurate? What was the flame temperature when the testing was performed? Was it even tested? Or was it "assumed"???

IIRC, the standard for testing boilers is to remove the insulation and fire the boiler to a SWT of 140* with a RWT of 120*. Does this happen on a regular basis in real life? If I am mistaken, please correct me.

You said, " I would just like to see a more methodical scientific approach to the testing of theories." If combustion efficiencies are based on "theoretical" stoichiometric combustion, would that not skew any and all resulting analysis?

The more I learn, the more I distrust what I was taught. It just doesn't add up.

I, like John, have no degree from college. In some ways I think that this is a good thing. John and many others like him don't know that "it can't be done".

I do not intend this post to be aggressive or confrontational. I am not trying to single Andrew out here. Andrew is a fantastic person and brings much to this industry.

I have not seen one bit of John's formula.

I met John at the first Wetstock, we spoke for a while at dinner. It's all in the eyes folks. John's eyes are as deep as the oceans are wide.

Mark H




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John Ruhnke

EEAG is now the OHEAG / Time to move on

EEAG is now the OHEAG / Time to move on….

First I want to state that I joined the RPA back in 1997. The people who have ran the RPA over the years have done a great job. They have raised the quality of Radiant Heating here in the United States and Canada by three decades of technological advancements crammed into one decade. In the 80’s our countries average level of expertise in radiant heating was about 30 years behind the Europeans average level of expertise. The RPA started in 1994 and by 2004 our average level of expertise has matched the Europeans. We even have some great technical advances now. Staple Up with Plates, Variable Speed Injection Mixing, Premanufactured Panel Board and more. The RPA has brought many good books and some great seminars to our country. The Radfests and Expo’s are always great. I am very proud to be a member of the RPA. If they will have me then I will continue to be a member for many more years.

Inventors and Innovators are a strange breed. The great ones have vision. This vision allows them to look deep into the future and see the possibilities. The average person cannot see these visions. Most of the times all of the other people just see the problems associated with trying to make the project work. Even another great inventor can have trouble seeing someone else’s visions because they may have a different background of expertise. Because they can’t see the vision they can’t understand the value.

Galileo had a very hard time when he tried to point out that the Earth was round. The Wright Bros were laughed at when people saw them try to fly. It is very difficult for the average person to grasp what these past great inventors knew when they were making their discoveries. Some great inventors were persecuted for expressing there ideas when they went against established religious beliefs.

I am not a great inventor. I am just a nobody. I have been a member of the Inventors Association of Connecticut since 1994. I am the current President of that group. I have studied great inventors for a long time now. I have read many books on them. I know many great inventors personally. I know how they think. I know how they work. I know what has made them great. I have a lot of raw talent that with a little luck, some more hard work and the right circumstance I too could be a great inventor. I have always had a great imagination. A great imagination is what leads to great vision.

The great ones had a team of people that they worked with. Edison had thousands of employees. Most of his employees were great inventors themselves. Through team work they accomplished a lot. They didn’t just invent the light bulb, they invented the whole electrical system. Edison had great vision.

It is very obvious that the RPA’s board cannot see my vision. It is obvious that the RPA’s board doesn’t want to work with me. Nothing is wrong with that. They should continue to do the great job that they do in the RPA advancing the radiant industry. I am going to start a brand new Energy Efficiency Action Group that has nothing to do with the RPA. I am going to start it from scratch. It is called the Overall Heating Efficiency Action Group. The purpose of the group will be to develop an accurate overall heating efficiency measurement. This measurement will be the standard of comparison used. The standard will never be written in stone and will change as accuracy improvements are made. We will then compare different heating systems. We will compare hot air against radiant. We will also compare radiant designs of different types. We won’t forget about other hydronic and steam systems too.

I assembled a team of people. These people were experts in there field. These people were giving me the pieces of the puzzle that I needed to create my vision. Freedom of expression is very important in team inventing. No one should feel stifled for voicing there opinion. How ever off the wall the idea is or strange it may sound is o.k. No one should feel like they are going to be kicked out for there opinions. Spontaneity is great! Some of the greatest ideas come from the strangest original thoughts. Open discussion through internet forums or e-mail can be a very good tool when members of the group live far away. The topic of the discussion should be focused on the task at hand. Off topic remarks can sometimes get distractive.

I am moving to Dan Holohan’s Website the Wall. I will be posting some follow up information on the new Overall Heating Efficiency Action Group (OHEAG). It might be soon or it might be a few weeks from now. I have been posting on the wall since the mid 90’s. I never had a problem there. I will try and explain some of my vision to everyone. I am looking to assemble a new team of inventors. Anyone that wants to be a part of the new group can email me your cell number, email address, name and a little background information on what your skills are or what you do for a living. If you are a past member of the old EEAG just tell me that you want to be a part of the new group too. Eventually I will start an email discussion group. Also one of the first topics of discussion will be how do we protect ourselves from some of the problems that happened with the old EEAG.

John Ruhnke
JR@ComfortableHeat.com

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Mark Hunt

John


Never give up.

The world is full of "pin people", the ones that want to burst your bubble and bring you back into the fold.

If you look in your rear-view mirror, you will see them getting smaller.

My best to you.

Mark H

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ALH_4

Efficiency and Performance Ratings

I have nothing but respect for John as I do for Mark and nearly everyone who posts here. I hate to see the message get lost in heated discussion about how the message is getting lost....if that makes any sense. There are many things we can all do to save evergy. I think it's a very noble goal. I know I have an incomplete understanding of what John's idea is. It seems I'm frequently one of the skeptics around here, and I don't mind that. If I am wrong I will willingly admit it.

I've called many indirect water heater manufacturers in the past, and one major manufacturer in particular was making claims I knew to be just plain wrong. Manufacturer ratings can mean very little at times.

I wish John luck in achieving his goals.

-Andrew

Bob Sweet

I gotta say

this thread is what it's all about. A passion for the industry, to give to the industry (the world) the very best we, as individuals have to offer.

The passion behind developing theoretical eff. ratings is enlightining and inspiring as is the burden of proof to prove those theories.


imho, this post has been one of the very best.

John Ruhnke

Descrimination against caucasions.........

The offending e-mail was a complaint of discrimanation against caucasion people. I am a caucasion. I have every right to complain when I feel I am being descriminated against. As it turns out, the source had the information wrong. On top of that, I misunderstood the source myself. I thought when the source used the word minority that they meant racial minority. They meant minority as in the size of the company. The complaint was never about the descrimination in the first place. The complaint was about making political adjustments to efficiency calculations thus weakening the effectiveness. I was just pointing out one of many problems AFUE and SEER have. I don't feel the government has done a good job with AFUE and SEER. I want to include boiler efficiency tests in my monitoring experiments of houses when we do Overall Efficiency monitoring. I feel field data will expose the problems further. Once exposed, corrections can be made. by the DOE. If nobody see's any problems then no one will do anything about the problems.

John Ruhnke

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DanHolohan

You're always welcome here, John.

Thanks for all that you do for others. I look forward to watching your progress with this.

Floyd

Amen.....

Albert Einstein

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.


Albert Einstein

The gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent or absorbing positive knowledge.


Albert Einstein

The tragedy of life is what dies inside a man while he lives.

Christian Egli_2

Woo hoo, the Wright brothers were from Ohio and this is a hijack

One thread, several mentions of the Wright brothers from Dayton and our very own Dan Holohan having come to Ohio (and he will return soon), the stars must be lined up. Something good will come out of all this heat.

Anyway, I can't help myself from elaborating a little.

The Wright brothers did indeed self finance their entire research over the very short period of a few years (about three). All the money came from their operation of their bicycle shop. Up to this point not all of their many business ventures had been successful, but, indeed in everything they did, they showed tremendous confidence and courage. Just getting the world (let alone our local Dayton Daily News) to recognize the first flight was a big task, and that didn't happen until years later in France, in Pau, in front of a select group of royalty. These crowned heads were the first to recognize the success of the Dayton brothers and it was this aristocracy that immediately climbed on board to become the jet set. Mimosa, anyone?

That made the concept of flight fashionable and it put the Wright brothers in front page news back in the US. Isn't it strange how big ideas get accepted? Until then, not even our military nor the Smithsonian institution were interested (both of which were actively looking for a flying machine, mind you??!)

Those brothers were a confident bunch.

Their arrival was new into the field of air research. Otto Lilienthal had developed a method to gather air lift efficiency data compiled in tables. The first wing tests Orville and Wilbur did for themselves did not work. It was a big disappointment and their diary shows they got real close to quitting... until they built enough confidence to trash the available data, declaring it faulty like a jury would throw out a bad law rather than a bad conviction. Why did they think they could go against the established data with impunity? They had built themselves the first wind tunnel and got much cleaner data than Lilienthal ever could have.

Smart, no? A great deal of others failed where the brothers succeeded in large part because the Dayton community had all the technical and knowledge ingredients necessary to the construction of a plane, a propeller and an exotic aluminum engine.

All that to say that first, general opinion is a fickle thing and that second, nothing trumps the confidence you get from good science. But, no matter what, the ride is rocky.

I hope whatever fracas is going on will soon be forgotten because it is not constructive towards the ultimate goal... Orville went on to live in a beautiful all-steam-heated Dayton home which he planned himself; it was not the result of a committee design. Oh, and once done inventing the plane, the FAA came in to make sure he was licensed to be a pilot.

Never mind the red tape. Ahem... certified copies of this license no. 1 are available for sale, signed by the descendants.

Were we talking about something else? Oh well.

DanHolohan

poetry

thanks!

John Ruhnke

I'm in the same boat........

Constantin,

I'm in the same boat. I recently expanded my house more then doubleing the square footage. I don't have the time or money that this project really deserves. Right now I am in what I would call a learning phase. I am trying to learn as much as I can in my spare time so that when I am ready to go, I can do things right. I have learned a lot so far. I work out things in my imagination. Which is much easier and cheaper then building prototypes. I am just trying to learn as much as I can. All I am looking for right now is a group of people to debate and talk about things for the purpose of learning. I estimate it will take three years to grow my business. I am behind schedule by about two years because my addition is behind by two years. My office isn't yet ready to move into. I am trying to find someone local to pay for the installation of monitoring equipment. If that happens the project will get a big boost. Just one house is all I need to prove that the concept works and that it is worthy of future grant money.

JR

John Ruhnke



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Supply House Rick

Constantin...Huh?

(your post)
Unfortunately, my recent job change back into the industry (Hello Supply-house rick) will probably preclude me from helping John. I'll have to inquire as to what I can and can't do in my spare time on job-related functions.

Huh? Please elaborate... Why are you calling me out?

Rick

Alan R. Mercurio_3

John, I'll be at the naohsm convention from Sunday to Thursday. I'm with the education committee, please hunt me down I have some idea's for funding your project.

And thank you for the passion dedication you have shown many of us over the years and continue to do so. Bless you my friend.

Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

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John Ruhnke

I would like to get involved in that commitee

Tim,

Can you help me to become a member of that commitee?

JR

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John Ruhnke

I'll be there on Tuesday.

Alan,

I will be there on Tuesday. I'll look for you.

JR

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Constantin

Hi Rick,

I was just having a little bit of fun. After all, you were quite concerned that I could be working for Viessmann. Thus, I thought I'd keep you posted on my employment status. :-P

I recently accepted a job with a different consulting company that will include, among other things, work for the DoE on energy efficiency measures. Right now, I gearing up for several weeks away from home to do some work in the field for non-DoE clients, however.

Less sleep, more work, I hope the wife will remain happy. More importantly, I hope I can still make the Brookhaven tour with Alan because our final presentation to the client may or may not fall on that day. (ARGH).

Supply House Rick

Constantin

I wasn't saying you were Viessman just Viesmann-ish.

What's your take on the Triangle Tube Prestige & Buderus GB142, pro's, con's etc.

Will the Pinnacle Oil Condensing Boiler live up to expectations, given the (lack of) quality of our #2 Oil?

Thanks,
Rick
* the view from the other side of the counter*