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Big Church boiler job - Ron Jr .

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Mad Dog_2
Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,926
in THE MAIN WALL
Just from what I've seen and you have reported, that they will see a drop of 60%!!!!!!!!! Yep, I'd go that far. This will get your company more good customers, if they promote it right. Mad Dog

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Consulting by Mad Dog & Matt Jr.
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  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    North Valley Stream , NY

    We semi-started this one on Tuesday . Me and Danny went there to drain the boiler and disconnect the piping for the ripout crew . Fantastic job they did - got it all out in one day and kept everything clean . For some perspective , I took a shot of 6 foot 4 Danny on top of the beast . This thing was BIG !

    While they ripped the ol' HB Smith 11 section out , me and Danny went back to the shop and prebuilt part of the 3 inch boiler manifold . Getting the tees straight is pretty easy if you use your noggin . I wish we had the foresight to get one made like Mad Dog did , but this only took us about 2 hours to build .
  • Unknown
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    How far we got

    Ths is 2 Burnham V9 4 section boilers , we built them up on day 2 and set up the big pipe on the wall . I think this is a hybrid primary-secondary setup , I'm not sure what you'd call it . We're using ESBE motorized valves and Tekmar controls with O.D. Hopefully we'll have them basking in heat by Wednesday . I'll update as we move along ......
  • David Sutton_6
    David Sutton_6 Member Posts: 1,079
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    big boiler

    thats on big hb smith...looks like your heading in the right direction.. man it make the G-124X25 i did today look soooooo small :)
    you doin good my friend, keep us posted....damm the suspence is killing me.... are you done yet?
    David
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
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    Very promising install...

    ... so far. Burnham is lucky to have you guys installing so much of their stuff this well... and so is the client.

    The older system looked like it could heat more than a church! The two-stage heating system you are installing now should lift seasonal efficiency a great deal and the header you built is a joy to behold.

    Have you ever considered a EZ-header, Earthlee, or any of the other pre-fab headers out there? They might be a great time-saver on a project like this. On the other hand, if you need to have the header by tomorrow, I suppose being able to build it in the shop is the best way to ensure that it'll be there tomorrow...
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Yea , all wrapped up !

    Geez Dave , you sound exactly like my mananger . Actually we're pretty far ahead of where I thought we'd be right now . I'm figuring another full day of piping if it's just 2 of us again , another day or 2 for the wiring , burners and fluepipe . At least 1/2 day to test the system and bleed the rads . Man , now that I think about it , I hope we get more help .... I forgot to mention we have to put an indirect in there too - that's way last on the priority list . Thanks alot Dave .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    A premade manifold woulda been sweet

    The one we built took me and Danny about 2 hours - and we couldn't do anything in the boiler room while they dismantled the old boiler anyway . So we went back and did some prebuilding . Any other situation , a premade manifold is well worth the money . I'm hoping and praying for no leaks on the 3 inch nipples .

    I finally met the Pastor today . Real nice guy and very understanding about the time it'll take to do it right . Judging by the difference in sheer mass of the boilers , the AFUE of the V9s , and these fancy controls we be installin' , I know this system will pay for itself in short order . Thank you Constanin for the kind words .
  • Ray M
    Ray M Member Posts: 94
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    The V9's are the way to go with that job. They are GREAT boilers. Nice job.




    Ray M

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  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,981
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    Looking good Ron!

    David, you sound like a boss when you ask that question to me also. I'll ask you the same question I'd ask him....So, what color IS the sky in your world?(when it's a customer, I just tell them ..Yep, can you please go turn up the thermostst for me?)

    You've got the church pointed in the right direction Ron. Looks like this system will pay for itself in short order. Have fun reading the Tekmar manuals...Hint: start now, and not too close to bedtime. Brush up on your engineer speak, cause you're gonna be seeing alot of it.(4 paragraphs to tell you that this will turn the boiler on and off. You'll see)

    Keep the photos coming and enjoy your weekend. Chris
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
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    I'd bet

    I'd be willing to bet the saving's from that old monster to new will be huge. BTW, you guy's need to stop the coffee breaks so you can get that done faster..:) Awsome job, how do you like the commercial side of thing's? Alot more space and less headaches generally. Make sure to post pic's of the control package, I for one can't wait to see it all!!

    BTW, dont let J.C. scare ya, the tekmar is easy to follow..:) well, after you've put in a few....
  • David Sutton_6
    David Sutton_6 Member Posts: 1,079
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    Hi Chris

    I like the thermostst thing...mind if i use it on the next one that ask me that?LOL as far as my sky goes allways sunshine and birds...just got to watch out for the little falling white blobs of bad news..David
  • jeff_51
    jeff_51 Member Posts: 545
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    hey ron

    how did you manage to get a job where your rear wan't cracking you head into the wall everytine you bent over. Guess you just gotta go over and help Mr Milne
  • Steve Ebels_2
    Steve Ebels_2 Member Posts: 47
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    I agree on all points Chris

    The new system is looking great so far and I'm betting it will save them major $$.$$ on their fuel bill.

    I also agree on the Tekmar manual evaluation. Seems as though they are forgetting that the best things in life are very simple. There really is enough needless info in their manuals to drive you crazy trying to find out the basics.
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
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    Sweet Sweet Work.

    Its nice that you get a chance to really have room and doing something other than a one day shoe horn.

    I can''t wait to see it finished. With the Staging and reset this should make a HUGE difference.

    Don't listen to Chris. I Never ask why he's not done or give him dead lines.


    HA ..... Now, about this swampland in Florida I'm selling. :).

    Scott

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  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,926
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    Its looking great so far......................................

    Can't wait to see the final pics. Don't make any promises in writing, but they will probably cut their fuel usage in half. Hats off...looks I have some competition in my own neck of the woods. Will you and the boys wire up the Tekmars and set it up too? Mad Dog

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    Consulting by Mad Dog & Matt Jr.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    They are great boilers

    I've installed 3 or 4 V9 steamers in the past . This is our first big hot water Burnham . I know Peerless went to O rings on the big boilers , and Weil has been that way for ages . For some reason I just like the seal you get with rugged cast push nipples . Thanks Ray .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Chris , I have some help from above ......

    or should I say , help from Burnham . Our rep showed up Friday to go over the piping arrangement for the Esbe valves and we looked over the controls . He'll be back on Tuesday to give us a hand with the wiring . When are they going to invent a control that you can talk to and talks back in plain English ?

    Thanks alot Chris .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Some manuals

    go on and on and on ...... like the one for my digital camera , 120 pages .

    Then you have the extreme opposite - my notebook computer came with a quick start guide , and not much else . I got buttons and plugs on this thing that I have no clue what they do . I probably got a diret hookup thingy to talk to my Tekmars for all I know .

    Thanks Steve , I think this system will be a great investment for the Church .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    I think you're on the money

    with the fuel usage cut . The old behemoth was maintaining 180 all year round for a dinky little sidearm coil . The new one will integrate cold start with outdoor reset and a 50 gallon indirect for the bathroom sinks .

    We're going to wire up the whole job and have our rep from Burnham there to answer any questions on Tuesday . We went over the wiring quick on Friday , didn't seem too bad at first blush .

    Hey , lets make a deal - we split up the commercial work at Glen Cove Rd . You get the west , I'll stay on the east side . The job aint bad , it's the ride in from Wantagh , and the ride back to Levittown that kills me . Hempstead Tpke at 4 pm is a suicide ride .

    Thanks alot Matt for your response . You inspired me with your Bazooka Header .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Aint got no time for coffee

    I know it isn't just me , but once I get a ball of steam rolling , I don't like to stop for anything - coffee , lunch , soda , pee break . I can't count how many gallons of 7-11 coffee went cold because I didn't drink it in time .

    Commercial work is a good change of pace . Back in another lifetime I used to do a commercial steamer every month or so . This is the 1st big water boiler we've done since 2001 . Space is still tight - there isn't much room between the boiler flues and the pipe on the wall . If I had my way , I'd convert the boilers to top flue . We were working on ladders the past few days also , which is time consuming . The control package will be mounted on the wall where 4 single zone relays were daisy chained together . I think we'll replace the plywood with something bigger and blue .

    Chris don't scare me , he just gives me a nervous twitch sometimes :) I'm going to break open the control boxes Monday and take a looksee at the manuals . Or better yet , I'll se if they got the info online . Thanks alot Lchmb .
  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,981
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    Sorry Bud,

    You still gotta get through the manual and make the control follow what you, and/or the customer, want it to do.

    Wish there was a simple way of pointing you in the right direction, but Facts is facts.

    Hopefully, your Burnham rep is well versed in "Tekmarspeak", and will give you the short course on the lingo.

    Like lchmb said, it IS easy, after the first few. Reading the manual and following the steps as described helps but there WILL be times when what you're reading will need to sink in and the control will go into it's "programed, from the factory" mode.

    Learn how to get back into it, and what you need it to do and when...and your going to start to appreciate the many functions and myriad of peramiters designed into the computer that runs it.

    Time is the best teacher overall.If you have the time, try to read the manual and if you have any questions you can either call Tekmar directly or, if time is not of the essance, ask for Hydronics Mike here on The Wall. He always seems to be lurking and willing to answer any questions that pop up during an install.

    You'll figure it out pal. It really isn't a big step once you learn the "terms" that are being described. Keep us posted. Chris
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Ahh , the typical boss

    with the bullwhip in one hand , and an AK in the other . Is it true they invented the term " Under the Gun " for your managerial skills ?

    Honestly though , on these bigger jobs , how in hell do you estimate how long it'll take ? Even if I had my choice of partners and how many , I would have no idea how many days . I know it'd be more than one and less than 20 , but that's a pretty big ballpark .

    Thanks alot Bossman Milne . I always appreciate hearing from ya , buddy .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    No way will I

    travel down into that rat infested sumphole he took pics of the other day . Well , everyone has their breaking price .....

    This is a polar opposite of the work we normally do - running pipe on 10 foot ladders and piping zones standing ERECT like my ancenstors used to do . Well , we are kind of new at that .

    Thanks alot Jeff .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Ron

    I wouldn't be overly concerned about the programming of the Tekmar controls. In most cases they are already set for the type of operation you will have on that job. I went over the setup of one a couple of weeks ago with a contractor from southern NJ over the phone and none of the factory settings had to be changed. The trickiest part of all is setting up the ESBE valves with the RTC control if that is what you are using. Use the instructions in the back of the V9A manual for that and you will be fine. Just remember that the valve has to be at either the full open or full closed position before mounting the handle and motor. Great job by the way and thanks again for using Burnham.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Al Corelli
    Al Corelli Member Posts: 454
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    Seeing that old Mills boiler brought back many painful memories. Like having to change the nipples on the drums, and having to change the drums because they were full of crud.

    Very nice work, Ron. I'd convert to top flue if that were an option.

    One question. Is that an air scoop in the middle of the header? Perhaps I ain't visualizing it too well.

    Spent the day at my friend's in Floral Park today, Took a side trip to Captree State Park and the old OBI to see the cars. I love Long Island.
  • Dale
    Dale Member Posts: 1,317
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    Great job for you guys

    Nice work on that header, using the nipples to keep it all straight was a nice touch. 2 hours is good time, fitting it up with weld-o-lets and weld tees would have taken about as long for an experienced wire welder and fitter. As to the domestic hot water, was there gas to the church? I'm getting to think the instantaneous is the best way to go for a small domestic load and a huge space heating load. Does your company sell or promote the instantaneous product? Looking forward to seeing the complete job, and no call backs makes up for a heck of a lot of time spent right the first time. Good to see some of your commercial work.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Progress

    This was how far we got yesterday - we finished all the piping . Today we did all the wiring and fluepipe . I'll take a pic of the finished job tomorrow .
  • Kevin_31
    Kevin_31 Member Posts: 17
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    Nice work!

    The suspense is killing me!
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    No pics

    of what we did today . I want to straighten out some of the wiring and clean up first . Thanks Kevin .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Our local rep

    came out today and spent a few hours helping us wire up the controls . He'll be back tomorrow to give us a hand running it through the paces . Thanks alot Glenn for your help .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    The domestic hot water

    is being taken care of with an Alliance G indirect . I'm not sure about gas in the building , but I do know there is no line in the boiler room . With the size of these boilers , I'll bet the recovery will be lickity split .

    The header is turning out to be the easiest part of the install . It took us maybe 2 hours to hang all the Kindorf and support the big pipe . The tough part is right now - I had to retighten the 2 - 4 inch plugs on top of the boilers , fix 3 sweat leaks and still need to resweat at least 3 more for tomorrow . This job is a great experience , but I really do wish it will end sometime soon ......

    Thanks lot Dale .
  • Darin Cook_3
    Darin Cook_3 Member Posts: 389
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    Looks Good Ron

    It has been years since we have done BIG boilers. Once you start hanging them on a wall mounted bracket you never look back. Keep up the good work.







    Darin
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    How did you

    change the nipples with the external common piping ? Did they use reverse threaded nipples ? My heart goes out to ya doing that kind of work .

    I hear you about going top flue . We piped it out today and there aint much room between the flues and the piping . One false move and you lose an eye . The good thing is after it's up and running there really is no reason to go back over there .

    The airscoop os to the left of the supply and returns to the boiler . All the system supplies flow through the airscoop , and the system returns come back from the right of the monster header .

    Floral Park ? We were one town south on the edge of Elmont . My old boss used to spend most of the summer at Gilgo with his family on his houseboat , where he would have the weekend " settling up and beer bash " . Then on a few occasions we'd all hop on his 19 footer and speed over to the OBI for drinks and some fun . That brings back good memories . Thanks Al .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    You got that right !

    At first I was thinking it might be easier to pipe it like we always do - right over the boiler . But now I know why you guys pipe it all on a wall - more access , easier , sturdier . Every big job we do will be piped on a wall if we got the room . Thank you very much Darin .
  • David Sutton_6
    David Sutton_6 Member Posts: 1,079
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    Looking good man

    Thats a very big project and is looking to be a very big success, dont ya just love standing back and looking at it and smiling and say man that was fun...NEXT...
    keep up the good work and you never know i may just invite myself down there in the spring and work along side ya for the learning lesson of a life time (for me that is ) no charge...David
  • Al Corelli
    Al Corelli Member Posts: 454
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    We cut and welded the header stuff back together.

    Every Sunday, if the weather is nice, you will find a couple of hundred cars either at the old OBI parking lot, or outside the restaurant at Captree. This a non-sanctioned car show, just a bunch of guys getting together. It runs pretty much all year till the salt goes on the roads.

    I'm usually there in any one of either my or my friend's cars. usually wearing a Mike Fisher Plumbing & Heating sweatshirt lately.

    I usually drive an 04 Purple SSR, or my friend's maroon 66 Impala SS.

    I am envious of your meticulous work.
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,752
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    church boiler

    oooooooooooooooh you are a saint, good looking job ron. Only if you were here in Seattle would it be better to me.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    All done , and a Big Thank You to Jake

    of Burnham Corp for spending alot of time with us on 3 separate days going over the piping and wiring strategy , and programming the Tekmar controls . He easily saved us more than a days worth of troubleshooting .

    I was back there today airing out the 40 or so cast iron rads . Ever get dizzy when you stand up fast ? Multiply that by 40 and thats how I felt . I also tried to neaten out the wiring . The circ wires and all the low voltage was done by others of my crew . Although I woulda went another way with the wiring , it didn't come out too bad . My own wiring was the line voltage on the front of the boilers ( except the burners ) and some of the BX wiring on the control panel .

    It was a kick explaining the system to the Pastor , since all this is brand new to me also . But the concept behind the staging , the outdoor reset , the properly sized boilers , the piping arrangement - can easily be seen to save the Church big bucks compared to the old Beast . We are going to track this one and see how the usage compares to the old one at the end of the season .
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
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    Time to

    It's time to kick back and relax now. Awsome job on the install!! Worst part is now they have some more for you to do!! :) You guy's do incredible work!!
  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,981
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    GREAT JOB RON !

    Looks nice. I'm sure the church will save many $ on their heating bills now.

    Did you go through the Tekmar with Jake and have time to reason out the settings? These controls are nothing short of amazing. (Imagine....a little piece of metal, placed stragegically can make all this happen... simply astounding ain't it ?).

    Congratulations. You've now joined the ranks of the "technologically hip". Welcome to the fold.

    Now...start showing the guys in the office some of the things these controls can do,and make them part of your companies sales points. Chris
  • Kevin_31
    Kevin_31 Member Posts: 17
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    One for the books!

    Truly a masterpiece!
    Keep up the good work
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