Oil vs gas water heater

Maine Ken

Please don't cap off the tankless!!!!!!!!!

Leave it open.

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Recruiter

oil vs gas water heater

I live in the northeast. We are landlords of a multi unit apartment.
Currently, oil is going to be going up to $3.00 to $3.20 per gal. The
local gas co is charging $1.55 per Therm. Most of the house uses gas
for heat and hot water, each paying their own usage. The 1st floor
uses oil for heat and hot water, which we pay for. It is occupied by a
family of 5, which uses between 1000-1200 gal of oil per year. I turn
the heat off after the heating season, leaving the furnace running for
the hot water. The furnace is an old American Severn converted coal to
oil burning unit, which my oil co tells me is in very good condition
for its age. The burner is a Blue Angel Model HS. I don't know the
efficiency of it. It is a forced hot water/radiator system.
The hot water, currently runs off a small tankless unit, which does
tend to run out of hot water on them frequently. It is showing signs
of possible leaking, so I need to do something.
My 2 options to bypass the tankless are: 1. Continue using the furnace,
and installing a 30gal stainless steel indirect water heater, or 2.
Install a 40 gal gas water heater, which would allow me to shut down
the furnace completely, during the non-use period. According to my
info, both heaters would suffice for the amount of usage needed. Which
would be most cost effective, short and long term? Thank you.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

A bit rough to answer your questions.

A good quality indirect will last a very long time--generally MUCH longer than gas "water heaters". Indirects have low standby loss because there is no flue. BUT, your old boiler converted from coal is likely way down on the efficiency scale even if it is in "very good condition for its age".

At the fuel costs you mention, the gas is substantially less expensive on a btu basis. At $3.10/gallon one therm (100,000 btus) of oil is costing about $2.21 vs. $1.55 for gas. Considering the current boiler, I'd say that overall efficiency would be quite comparable.

In the short-term I'd say that a stand-alone gas fired water heater would be substantially less expensive.

But 1,000 - 1,200 gallons of oil per year for a single GROUND FLOOR apartment with 5 occupants sounds outrageous to me unless that apartment is EXTREMELY large.

While your ancient converted boiler may be in good shape, it [seems] like it's TERRIBLY inefficient. If you plan on replacing the boiler in the near future, I'd install an indirect.

Leo

Time to change

Given the age of the boiler and the oil used I would change the boiler to a new oil fired that is capable of swtching to gas if needed at a later date. I would also add an indirect. A 57 Caddillac is a very nice vehicle and can be made to run well but I wouldn't want it as my primary vehicle.

Leo

Steamhead (in transit)

Costs per BTU

your figure for gas sounds low. Did you figure in all the little taxes, fees etc. that appear in VERY SMALL print on the gas bill? If you didn't, you might get a nasty surprise......

I agree with the other posters regarding the Severn boiler. Even with a very good burner like the Wayne Blue Angel HS, it's not very good at transferring heat to the water. The fact that it uses a tankless heater compounds the problem, since this requires that the Severn maintain temperature all the time.

Replace the Severn with something that can efficiently burn either oil or gas such as a Solaia (Biasi), shown here with a power gas burner. Heat the faucet water with an indirect. You'll love the way it will work if done right.

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Recruiter

Costs per BTU

I rechecked my gas bill. There are: Therm factor of 1.023 per CCF. Usage charge of $.36/Therm, Distribution Adj Charge -$.0031/Therm, Cost of Gas $1.1971/Therm. Then under Other charges is Gross Earning Charge, which totaled $.87 (not per therm). So that is where I came up with the estimated gas cost

Steamhead (in transit)

If you haven't already done so

simply divide what you paid for gas by the number of therms you used. That's your cost per therm with all taxes and fees included, divide that by 100,000 to get cost per BTU.

For #2 oil, divide the cost per gallon (which already includes taxes and fees) by 140,000 (each gallon contains 140,000 BTU) to get cost per BTU.

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Recruiter

Cost per Therm

Boy, do I stand corrected. All I did was add up the numbers shown on the bill. When I did it your way, I found out that in June, gas cost me $2.358/Therm. In May it was $1.915/Therm. Oil, at my new cap rate of $2.999, is $2.142/Therm.
That was an eye opener. I always thought that gas was cheaper than oil.

Steamhead (in transit)

Gas companies

want you to think so! That's why they put their bills together that way.

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Recruiter

I just had someone in from the oil co to give me some additional info.
My burner is running at 78.5-80% efficiency. I probably don't need to
upgrade the burner right now. Even he admitted that, although the
furnace is in good condition, it is using much more oil than it
probably should. Replacing the furnace w/ an internal water heater is
about $5000 and a furnace with an indirect unit is about $6800. Both
numbers are tough to swallow this year. The alternative is to cap the
lines to the tankless and install a gas Water heater. According to the
gas co, it should cost about $50/ mo to run the HW. On the other hand,
according to the oil co, based on a 1200 gal consumpsion, probably 250
gal is HW. So now we are only talking about the difference of $600/yr
for gas vs $750/yr for oil. On top of that, it will cost about $700 to
install the new gas heater and cap off the tankless. Then, as a friend of
mine reminded me, if the cost of gas continues to rise, the $150/yr
difference disappears since the oil is capped at that price.
And the dilema continues.

J.C.A._3

Not to rain on your parade here, but....

Here's something to ponder. The price of a new unit will NOT be going anywhere but up in the future. You will spend the money for the gas fired water heater and have to replace it in 8-10 years (in most cases). You can buy water heaters with 6, and 10-12 year warranties. Figure a good indirect comes with a lifetime warranty to the original owner/buyer. The cost is more upfront, but absolutely less expensive in the long term. Better quality tanks, better insulation and a better recovery rate....all around a better product and less expensive to OWN overall.

The boiler is a different story completely. Your oil guy loves to show you 79-85% COMBUSTION EFFECIENCY. This is NOT, repeat,NOT the system effeciency!

Think about the burned fuel(heat)passing through the HUGE openings and passages in this old boiler. It's waving goodbye as more of it than should passes to the chimney without effectively passing off it's contents to the water that heats the house.A properly sized new boiler will pay for itself in short order and if the price of fuel continues to rise, it will do it faster! This is a no brainer. You've been given a price (which we don't discuss here on the board BTW)That will not likely be lower ever. I'd bring in a couple of contractors to give you bids and reasons for their personal prefferences.

I get a good laugh from the oil company telling you it doesn't need replacing. OF COURSE IT DOESN'T...You burn 1200 gallons a year. Anything less would cut into their pocket...Think about it. Then FORGET the price. Think of the comfort,savings and piece of mind with a new and better unit.

Best of luck and let us know what you decide. I'd be real interested to know the outcome. Chris

frank_25

I work for an oil company in Queens, NYC, and I'd love to be your oil supplier, then I'd sell you a highly efficient oil fired hot water boiler w/ a life time warranty DHW tank.
You'll love me for it in due time. What I don't like is the age of the boiler. It has fist sized flue passages within the boiler, weighs a ton. On the other hand, the new boiler flue passages have pencil sized passages that allow the hot by-products of combustion to scrub the heat disapating iron and stack gas is acceptably low without condensing. Weighs less too , so there's not so much iron to heat. Ya gotta spend it to save it. (period, the end!)

Wayco Wayne_2

Well said Chris and Frank

Material and equipment cost and Fuel costs are going nowhere but up. I would get a loan and take the high efficiency train as a hedge against future cost increases. I prefer natural gas as you can get higher efficiencies with condensing equipment. (I'm not ready to trust oil condensing equipment yet. ) Also projections as to avaiabilty of oil in the future look to have a shorter lifespan than gas. So say some who claim to know. An indirect tank is a great investment that will take your headaches away for a long time. Good Luck. WW

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Jon Gerstad_2

Listen to Chris, Frank and Wayne

Listen to Chris, Frank and Wayne. I am a Property Owner as well, and some years ago, I decided to supply HW from a source other than the boler. Well, the boiler sat there all summer, cold, and when I fired it in the fall to provide heat, it was full of leaks. I ended up with a $700 welding bill. Boilers are meant to be used, otherwise, the Ph of the water in your system can do strange things if you don't keep an eye on it.

Scott04

If you absolutely can't afford a new boiler AND indirect this year, at least get the indirect. It will cost more to hook into the existing system than it would with a new install, but is much more efficient than a gas water heater, and can be hooked to a new boiler when you can upgrade it.

That being said, I have to agree with everyone else here that the old coal conversion boiler is just sending your hard earned money up the chimney!

We replaced a coal conversion warm air furnace that had a beckett burner about four years ago. The oil consumption for that house was cut by more than 50% with the new furnace being the only change!

The real question here is: Can you afford NOT to upgrade the whole system?

Scott

Scott Gregg

Finance it

Many companies now offer financing for just such occasions. The rates might me a bit high but you can pay it off any time you like, keep payments low and avoid the cost associated with a breakdown.

You do know when these old boilers let go don't you? Let's see...3* outside on a friday night of a holiday weekend. That sounds about right. Everyone in town not on vacation is booked solid and OT rates are soaring.

Get it done and get it done this summer before heating season.

J.C.A._3

Bump.

Just wondering if Recruiter had looked at this thread and made any new decisions. We ain't wrong ! Hope you feel the same way. Chris

Recruiter

I think we got the message

After talking amongst ourselves, we finally came to the conclusion that its about time to just do it.
That brought us to; what setup. We figured that the most efficient use would be a boiler with indirect water heater.

All the questions seem to evolve around the boiler. Do we get the boiler/burner setup, or just the boiler and use our burner? Our burner is about 18 yrs old, but still gets an efficiency testing between 77-80%. How does this compare to the new burners? Should I just wait until this one goes, if there isn't much difference (especially since it has yet to ever have any trouble)?

The only thing about the boiler I do know is, I need oil, forced hot water, chimney vent. I would like to get an efficient unit, preferrably Energy Star rated. I found the web page that lists all the Energy Star boilers and the AFUE Rating. With so many, how do you know which one is best. I am only familiar with about a half dozen names out of the list.

The oil co is suggesting, without actually sizing it up, that I probably need 175k BTU/Hr unit, plus the 40 gal indirect. I signed up to recieve the disk, to size up the unit myself to be sure.

If anyone has any suggestions, preferences or ideas, I'm all ears!! Thanks everyone, for sticking it out with me.

Scott04

If getting a new boiler, always get a new burner! The burner that comes with a boiler is set up for that boiler. Will the old one work? Not as well as a new one! Also, there have been many changes in the burners that improve eficiency, not only in oil usage, but electrical usage as well.

As far as brands, I would say any triple pass boiler would be a great choice! I would stay away from condencing boilers, at least until such time as our fuel quality improves, and sulphur content is reduced. Ask your service company what they recomend. They are the ones that have to service it, and if parts are needed, the chances they have them in stock are much greater if you go with their recomendation. Beckett, Carlin, and Riello burners are all popular, and perform about the same. Again, ask the ones that will be servicing it.

Hope this helps,

Scott

Wayco Wayne_2

Nothing but good.

Glad to see you are considering the upgrade. I think it's a smart move. Scott gives some good advice. I like the Buderus triple bypass with Riello and a Logomatic control*, but there are others such as the one Steamhead recommended a few threads up. (The Solaro ??) I know Burnham and Weils Mclean, have a triple bypass oil fired boiler too. Doing your own heat losss is the right way to go. Most boilers are way oversized and this cuts down on efficiency in the same way that stop and go traffic cuts down on gas mileage in a car. Long cycles are your friend. * The logomatic control really milks the efficiency out of the boiler. It's an amazing control. WW

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Leo

Do you buy a new car

Do you buy a new car but keep your transmission because it was rebuilt last year? I did a cleaning yesterday that took 2 1/2 hours because some one saved money keeping the old burner on a new tight boiler and it still doesn't run right. What the guy saved then is made up now in service. There is usually a call during the year for service. This is a boiler that with a rated burner would generally never need more than the annual service.

As Taco says "Do it once, do it right"

Leo

J.C.A._3

I'm glad you will...

be taking the best advice you could ever get.

The oil co. sounds WAY off base, unless there are window walls, and a few missing.175000 btu boiler would heat the Taj Mahal, and I'd bet dollars to donuts it would be MORE than 3 times what you really need. You're heading in the right direction by doing your own heatloss. (When you figure it, show the oil co. I bet it will open their eyes wide and make them drop the fingers across the street method they are now using!)

Best of luck and please consider the "Find A PRO" section listed above, and you'll be in good hands. Chris

Recruiter

Narrowing the choices

Everyone has really helped me get through some tough decisions, on a subject I knew very little about.

We are finally narrowing down the choices. We will be puting in a new boiler. The oil supplier only installs boilers they carry. Otherwise I have to hire a plumber to install it.

I did several heat loss calcs. As I said before, my oil co was suggesting a 175MBU boiler. I even called him back to make sure I heard him correctly. I did the calcs in several ways, measuring the windows, doors, wall space, etc. I also did a calculation based on the radiators, ie dimensions, # of pipes, # of fins. All the calcs show I should be needing between 75-82MBU-less than half of what my oil co suggested.

None of the boilers that my oil supplier carries are Energy Star rating. If I'm going to put that much money into the system, I want as much out of it as possible.
I checked with some of the plumbing & heating supply co's in the area. The smallest units I can get locally are in the 110-115MBU range. We have narrowed it down to 2 Energy Star boilers. The Weil-McLain Ultra Oil UO-3, with an AFUE=86.5% or a Burnham MPO 147TB and an AFUE=87%. Both would be fitted with a Beckett Burner. Anyone have preferences between the 2?

My Indirect water heater choices have been narrowed to a Weil-McLain Ultra Plus-40, or a Crown Mega Stor MS-40. Then the is always the tankless choice. Any thoughts on that? That one seems like a coin toss. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

J.C.A._3

Ask around.

There are quite a few choices in the range that you'll require.

You're heading in the right direction with both of your choices, but they will be way oversized.Stick with the 3 pass design and consider both Buderus and Biasi. The Biasi is sold under a couple different names, but are a great little boiler.
Don't forget to look at some of the options offered. Outdoor reset is an easy and relatively inexpensive way to save even more.

Buderus offers this option as an add on item with most of their boilers, and Tekmar makes a great addition for just what you need, in their 260 control. Outdoor reset with domestic hot water priority.

If you're going to spend the dough, do it right. Price alone should not be the deciding factor.As I said earlier, the savings in fuel and electricity will make the payback period relatively short, and if the price of fuel rises....it will be even quicker!

If you've got the time, shop a bit and find the properly sized unit and also consider in your mix for an indirect a Super Stor by HTP. Best of luck and congratulations on your decision. Chris

Recruiter

Which way to go?

Some of my other options include a Crown Tobago. That I can get at 79MBU, but that could be cutting it close, plus it has a lower AFUE rating of 85.8. The Buderhus I have available is also in the 120MBU range. They are all 3 pass designs.

What is outdoor reset? I have seen reference to it, but no explainations of what it does or the benefits of it. Thanks.

Rich_29

Recruiter. What is the sq/ft of your space to be heated? With the margin of error built into these heat/calcs an 80k Buderus might well do your job.

From a long time lurker's view on this site, stay close to JCA's advice with your project and you will have the last laugh at your oil company.

good luck Brendan.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Reset (outdoor reset is one form) merely means that the boiler temperature is re-set so that it more closely matches the current load. e.g. as load decreases so does temperature. When outdoor reset is used, the boiler temperature is reduced as the outside temperature rises.

In general reset is both a fuel saving and comfort enhancing control scheme. The amount of reset you can use is a function of both the emitters and the boiler. Most oil-fired and traditional gas boilers have a fairly high low temperature limit that can significantly reduce the safe (for equipment) reset range. A high reset range can still be used for the emitters (using a motorized mixing valve) but such is more for comfort than economy. To my knowledge, the Vitola by Viessmann is the only oil-fired boiler with no low temperature limit that also retains efficiency regardless of temperature--it is however quite expensive.

Search here for threads regarding reset. You'll find MUCH information.

Steamhead (in transit)

Recruiter

there appears to be some leeway built into most heat-loss calc programs. Cutting it close should not be a problem.

If you're nervous, try increasing the outdoor temp in your calc by 3 degrees or so and see if that puts the Crown over the edge.

Speaking of 3-pass boilers, I'm not familiar with the Crown but Biasi also makes one with a net rating of 79 MBH. It's also sold as the Solaia, and can run on oil or gas (this is the one Wayco Wayne mentioned). Here are some links- the oil one is not quite done yet, give us a couple of days.

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=37683&mc=22

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=38241&mc=19

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Wayco Wayne_2

Recruiter

My Buderus catalog shows an oil fired 3 pass rated at 85,000 IBR output rating. That would be a nice fit. Model number G115B28. (Add the logomatic control and your wildest dreams will come true) WW

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Frenchie

Crown Tobago

The tobago is actually not a 3-pass boiler. It is a pin boiler, I know because I just put one in my house last Feb! The 3 section Tobago can be fired anywhere from .65 up to 1.05 GPH to match the load better. The lower firing rates increase the AFUE rating. My oil tech. loves these boilers because he says they never leak unlike other brands they have worked with. I am happy with it.

Leo

AFUE

The AFUE rating is a guide like the MPG on the sticker of a new car it isn't carved in stone. If you have 2 or 3 boilers with differing numbers that are withn a percent of each other remember one percent is one dollar on a hundred. Factor this against service and it may become meaningless.

Leo

B. Tice

Boiler

Recruiter: In exchange for the good advice you recieved, PLEASE PLEASE let us know what you end up doing, then report back next year with a report. We all benefit from real life reports from building owners.

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Recruiter

I can say I'm closer

I found the local Buderus distributor, and did some checking. Undoubtedly, at this stage, if it were not only my house, but my apt, my heat, my hot water, my comfort, it would be the way to go. The G115/28 with the R2107 and horizontal DWH would do exactly what I would want, hands down - for me.

This is a rental space. It is for rental income. Although I realize what I put out now is going to come back to me in spades later, my main concern has to fall back to cutting my oil consumption dowm, over my old boiler (that's easy)!
As Leo says, the Energy Star Rating is a guide, but it is something I am looking for, for efficency, while trying to keep whatever I do get within a % or 2

I have checked with many of the local suppliers and oil co's in this area. It appears that, for some reason, the Beckett burners are the burner of choice, within a 30 mile radius. As one person told me, if you have almost anything go wrong on a Beckett, they will have the parts on the truck. With most other burners, they have the most common parts, but you could find yourself in a situation where they may need to go to the shop to get a part.

I have been looking into, at least getting outdoor re-set. It is one of those nagging items that some people swear by, and others are telling you "Its only a rental. Save the money toward something else." HMMM!!

I seem to be going back to the original 2 boiler co's Weil-McLain and Burnham. I discovered a problem with availability of parts, locally, for the Crown Tobago. So I seem to be coming around full circle. I know what I'd like, but its not my apartment. So I'm narrowing it down, and trying to get the options worked out.

BTW: the last plumber gave us a good idea. A 40 gal DWH is only going to be running 1 bathroom and a kitchen sink. Since we already pay for it, there is no sense in having a separate 40 gal gas HW tank, like we have now, which only runs a clothes washer. Tie them all into the DWH, and disconnect the gas heater. That would save us money on our gas bill immediately.

Leo

Remember

You would know this more than me but remember as a rental you get some tax advantages for your investment. I worked for an oil company and one of our customers had a few rentals. He had three fairly new boilers. The one for his residence was over 40 yrs old at the time.

Leo

Recruiter

Final decision

First of all, I want to thank everyone who helped me wade through all the confusion I was going through.
I was asked to post what we finally are going to end up installing and why- so here goes.

We had started by "narrowing down" to 4 boilers. Buderus, Burnham, WeilMcLain and Utica. The Utica was eliminated because, although it is a good boiler, according to the repairmen, suppliers, and heating contractors I spoke to, it isn't as good as the others. I agree with most everyone, the Buderus would probably be the BEST boiler of the lot, but availability to parts and service for it is limited in my area. I wouldn't want to get something that my oil co can't service. That leaves the Weil McLain UO3 and Burnham MPO. After going back and forth with it, we finally decided on the Weil McLain with a Weil McLain Indeirect water heater. It all added up to which co has parts readily available, and my oil co services easily. I also took into consideration, if I change oil co's, what system is more likely, in my area, for other co's to also service easily. Weil McLain is available by more suppliers in this area, than any of the other boilers.

When I asked everyone about Outdoor reset, all but 1 person told me not to go with it. I have the old cast iron radiators. They take a while to heat up, but once they do, they stay hot for a long time. The indoor and outdoor sensors would be fighting the radiators, because they respond too slow for the system. If I had baseboard or panel radiators, that would be a different story. Then they would have recommended the outdoor reset.

The difference in cost of installing each system was minimal, so that wasn't a factor.

So there it is. In the end, I had to rely on availability and serviceability. The Buderus was the first choice, but we had to settle for our #2. I will try to get back to the forum, after the heating season, and let everyone know how we made out.

Maine Ken

With cast iron rads I would absolutely go with outdoor reset!!!! I am not sure who here would say otherwise. Oversized cast iron is a perfect candidate for reset. Comfort and savings abound!!!!!!

Congrats on selecting a new system, happy heating.

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Brad White_106

I agree with Ken

Reset rules, especially if the CI is on a separate circuit with mixing. The Domestic will not fight the heating. The mixing valve will stop any over-shoot to the radiators. DHW will have priority anyway. Plus the CI mass will carry you through the DHW period without a blip in space comfort. Cannot say that with BBD.

Please reconsider reset! You will save and increase comfort.

Constantin

Makes you wonder...

... perhaps it's time to reconsider who is going to be installing these things?

Statements like radiators fighting the OR/IR sound suspiciously old-school, a.k.a. "what operational costs?". I would not let someone into my home for a new boiler without OR, particularly with a high-mass/low temp system like radiators or RFH.

B. Tice

Reset

I would say the opposite, reset good for CI, not as effective on baseboard.

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Recruiter

Outdoor reset

This was part of why, as I stated in an earlier post, the issue of OR gets so fuzzy. I understand the concept of OR, I think. The Indirect would be set up on its own zone. The apt, currently with 1 Honeywell control that is centrally located, is the 2nd zone. I posed the question of OR to 4 plumbers, 2 oil co service managers, and 4 local supply co's - I figured they could give me an idea of what they see as needing the most service, along with a different perspective. Everyone, except for one of the salespeople from one of the supply companies, said not to go with the OR.

I am assuming that OR could be added at a later time, after I've had a chance to see how the current system is working out, as it is. It will give me more of a chance to check out the pros and cons of OR and see if it is worth the added expense, in my situation. Part of me keeps saying it should be a benefit, but then again, I think I need to do more homework on it. Thanks.

Maine Ken

Save yourself some headache and expense. Do it now, that way you can pipe your system accordingly and not have to tear out and repipe later.

A properly piped and controlled system will have no adverse affects to your indirect hot water production, or youe boiler longevity.

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