Rather Odd Heating System

Boilerpro_5

made by another manufacturer in Chicago area. I believe it was Triad.... who is still in business. They used what looks like standard fin tube and ran two parrallel runs around the perimeter of the house perpendicular to the joists. Another thing they did was they mounted the pumps for the system on the bottom of the boiler and pumped away from the boiler....very advanced design for the 1950's. More satisfied owners...the home was builst by an attorney shose family the towns municipal complex is named after.

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Terry Tullis

Rather Odd Heating System

I have a rather odd heating system in a 1956-vintage single level house that my wife and I have just purchased. The heating system was apparently designed/created by Kritzer Radiant Coils, Inc., of Chicago, since their name is on the blueprints of the system. The heating is via hot water flowing through copper pipes in the ceiling, that have fins on them over parts of their length. There are pipes w/ fins directly above the metal lath-and-plaster ceiling of the main living level, namely in the attic, under some old insulation that is stapled between the joists. Maybe there was supposed to be a convection space created under the insulation, but over the years the insulation has sagged so there is no space around the pipes. Furthermore, the length of pipe in each room is not large, there being only two pipes running the length of the living room, separated by about nine feet, so not a very high density of pipes. I assume the pipes in the ceiling of the living level are meant to be what heats it, since their pipes are so labeled in a large array of pipes, manifolds, and valves near the furnace. There are also similar pipes suspended from the ceiling of the basement, about 6 inches below the floor of the main living level, that I suppose might heat the living level a bit, but they are labeled as if they are meant to heat the basement. Heating from above seems like a crazy way to do it, especially with the low density of pipes and no space for convection around the pipes in the attic. We are wondering if we could improve its effectiveness by putting some solid insulation board above the pipes to create a convective space to allow better thermal contact with more of the ceiling. The pipes run perpendicular to the joists (in a gap under them I think), so perhaps one could put insulating board above them in all the bays and make a larger area for convectionn, namely the whole area between all the joists. I'd sure appreciate any suggestions or comments anyone may have about how this system is supposed to work and what we might do to improve it.
Cheers,
Terry

bob_46

Terry

do you live around Batavia, Illinois?

Terry Tullis

No, in Providence RI.

Terry Tullis

bob_46

The reason

I asked about batavia is that was the location of kritzer. I only have anecdotal experience. I had a plumber working for me that had that system in his house. He was very satisfied with it. His and yours are the only two that I have heard of. Better insulation would certainly help. bob

Terry Tullis

Thanks

OK, thank for the info that there is at least one satisfied customer!

Terry Tullis

Mike T., Swampeast MO

I've never heard of (much less seen) such a system but it sounds like you're on the right track in suspecting sagging and/or inadequate insulation to be a serious problem.

Rigid insulation does sound like a good idea, but I'd look carefully to determine how much air gap was there originally and do my best to replicate. I would certainly include a radiant barrier! Many forms of radiant barriers: foil-faced rigid insulation, Insultarp and bubble foil come to mind.

Jamie Hall

foil/bubble/bubble

sounds like the plan -- just make sure it's supported well, with the foil side down towards the pipes (and you). These overhead systems (I've seen some electric ones, too) are basically radiant heat; different (I don't care for them, or for the heat quality) but they do work and some folks swear by them.

Terry Tullis

R value of insulation and sealing it

Thanks for the confirmation and additional good suggestions on the insulation. Hopefully one of you knows more about R-values of different kinds and thickness of rigid insulation. Before I learned of the piping system an installer of blown-in cellulose said I need about 12 inches of that in the attic. This thickness would cover the plywood floor on top of the joists and prevent me from being able to use the floor. I'm hoping I might be able to attain the same R-value with a smaller thickness of rigid board above the heating fins and under the plywood floor. Any thoughts on what is needed to do a good job? And is there a way to be sure the rigid insulation fits tightly enough against the joists so there is no air loss up around it? Might I need to add something to seal between the joists and the rigid board? The total length of all the junctions seems too long for easy use and also too expensive to use that expanding foam spray in stuff.

Terry Tullis

Jamie Hall

Insulation

Terry --
You don't say it, but you imply that although you are going to use the attic you want to keep it cold. If this is the case, your big problem is going to be condensation: you will want a really good, really tight vapour barrier between the attic and the rest of the house. I would still be inclined to use the foil/bubble/bubble/foil above the pipes you mention, although it's not the cheapest stuff around (about $.40 per square foot). You can get it in 8 foot widths, which might be a bit of a bear to handle in your situation (working it over the pipes) but that would reduce the number of seams to tape.

Another possibility would be to use the foil only over the pipes, but put a solid vapour barrier on the floor of the attic, cover that with rigid foam and cover that with a new floor (the R value of foam varies; adjust the thickness as necessary).

Think outside the box...

Whatever, if that attic is going to be cold, get a good vapour barrier in there!

Terry Tullis

Vapor barrier, etc.

Jamie: Thanks for those thoughts, and sorry not to be able to respond sooner. I'm a babe in the woods on this, so please forgive all my questions and thanks for your help. Yes, I was planning on the attic being cool. I assume that wherever there is a substantial temperature drop we will have the condensation problem, and I suppose we have it now to some extent, since the attic is cooler than the house, although not as cool as I envision trying to make it. Maybe we should arrange for a bit of heat up there to not let it get so cold and condense so much, but if we do that we waste that heat except as an attempt of a solution to prevent condensation. Thoughts?

We have a bunch of ceiling light fixtures that come up through the ceiling into the attic and these may be paths for moisture as well as heat, so how to deal with them isn’t clear to me. Your idea of a second floor over the existing one is an interesting one, although it makes it that much harder to get to the various things like wiring, whole house vacuum system piping, etc. that run under or on top of the present floor.

As far as a vapor barrier goes, I assume that it should be on the bottom side of insulation so that no moisture gets up into the insulation where it would start condensing at some level in the insulation where it is cool enough?

You refer to taping boundaries (e.g. I assume, to seal the boundary between the insulation and the joists). Is there some sort of tape that is used for this?

I’ve just looked on the web a bit for bubble foil since I knew nothing about it. It seems as if it can act as a vapor barrier, but I suspect is too floppy to hold up a space above the pipes and fins, even with some supports. So I’m wondering about putting some foil backed rigid insulation above the pipes and fins with support blocks here and there to make the airspace with the pipes in it. That rigid insulation might not act as much of a vapor barrier, although maybe it could help if I taped all along where it met the joists. Then I could put bubble foil above that and maybe it would act as a good vapor barrier and even fit tightly enough in the joist space that it would not let vapor up that boundary. Are the wood joists themselves going to act as a vapor passageway and get moist and rot if the attic is a lot cooler?

Sorry this got so long!

Terry Tullis

Jamie Hall

Vapour barriers, etc.

Those light fixtures will be a problem. It doesn't take much of a hole to allow the vapour up through, and it doesn't take much vapour to create condensation; rot is usually less of a problem than mold, though. Mold can be a real problem. They can also be a problem if they are not rated to be wrapped in insulation -- a lot of ceiling can fixtures aren't, and can overheat very badly if surrounded by insulation -- a real fire hazard.

For the foil/bubble stuff, try www.TekSupply.com; very good outfit, very prompt and helpful. They also have a variety of nifty (and very agressive) tapes for sealing seams and the like.

The rigid board above the pipes (only) would work, if it is the sort which has foil on one or both sides (which, incidentally, has a better R value, too). It is almost impossible to seal rigid board well enough to form a vapour barrier, though.

Not much vapour will get through a standard joist, but the insulation value of a standard joist isn't all that good.

You'd be welcome to send me a personal e-mail on all this, if you want -- jchnhtfd@att.net

Jamie

bobbyg_2

I've seen this system quite a few times

I am located in Southwestern Indiana and I have seen them in homes (8 or so in a 100-mile radius from Evansville IN). They are mostly high-end homes from the 30's-50's. On some of them I have seen vintage sparco manifolds going to the baseboard in the ceiling (homerun style). A mixing valve that had an outdoor bulb to "reset?" the supply temp.

I have a contractor who has upgraded the system with a Weil-McLain Ultra and used the outdoor reset (he experimented on programming to maximize comfort at the lowest temp setting).

I have a set of blueprints I made copies of and it was a nice system in its day.