Munchkin

Lyle C

Ken,
We did alot of research on mod/con's for a reacent project . We found no complaints on this boiler within the last two years .But because of make-up air concerns we went with the Triangle Tube Prestige.

Ken D._3

Munchkin

We are going to install our first Munchkin. Our supplier has said they are very efficient and there have been no problems they are aware of. I have seen many complaints on The Wall. Any good advice? Thank you.

Unknown

They have had some issues,

that I hear on the Wall, but I think the "kinks" are worked out now. I like what I read about their stuff and would like to try one,,but I can`t seem to find a wholesaler in Canada.

Dave

Pinball

Advice??...READ the Manual Before installing and do what it says. Be sure to do a combustion test. And enjoy!

Al

Chris_82

Can't say the same,...

The warranty policy is just plain wrong and after many bad expeeriences we no longer use them. you get what you pay for and these are the bottom of the barrel. They also have a great markup and no wonder the wholsalers love em IT'S their job to sell! Not fix em! There are so many better units avalable, and so many factory reps supporting them why take the risk?

I gotta ask Ken, you indicate you have already bought the thing, why are you now asking for advice? At this point you are invested in defending your choice and most likely won't be receptive to any of us that have had extensive experience with these units.

hot_rod

In that brand

I'd lean more towards the Contender. Most of my pet peeves have been addressed in the Contender series.

A`tightly sealed case sure seems to solve a lot of the dirty combustion chamber problems, plugged condenstae drains, etc. Copper connections, cleaned up wiring, nice condensate trap are among the other improvements. 2" venting is handy. Makes for a nice HydroPulse replacement unit!

All mod cons are merely a sum of their parts. If the component suppliers send out fans or gas valves with "issues" it's hard to hold that against the boiler.

If you have gone through the "Smart Valve" learning curve you know how that tune goes

it always comes down to how well the rep and factory support you when problems arise.

Follow this board long enough and you will see ALL brands suffer from "bugs" from time to time. Many, but not all are installer error.

Recalling again, the copper tube boiler "games" we have all played over the years.. "It's not our fault, and you need a bigger pump" was the battle cry.

hot rod

Perry_3

I have to disagree in part:

I have to disagree with two of your statements; as I believe that they present a false picture.


"All mod cons are merely a sum of their parts. If the component suppliers send out fans or gas valves with "issues" it's hard to hold that against the boiler."

I believe that the Boiler Mfr should be held responsible for their choice of subcomponents. There are few real secrets or surprises when buying subcomponents. Certain companies have reputations for good and reliable components and others do not - or have no reputation whatsoever. If a company choses to go with component suppliers who do not have good and reliable reputations and the parts don't stand up... They are responsible for their choices.


"Follow this board long enough and you will see ALL brands suffer from "bugs" from time to time. Many, but not all are installer error."

While this statement is true it does not present that different boilers have different rates of problems; and I disagree that many are installer errors when applied to all boilers.

I have been following this board for over 9 months. The Muchkin boiler has an overwhelming large number of reports of problems from many many people. So many post from different people that they dwarf any other boiler brand reports of problems (and might even be more than the total number of reported problems for all other boilers combined).

Now I admit that "new problems" are repeats of problems that other posters have previously covered. The F9 error code, and fan problems are the most common ones. But there has to be a reason why new people keep comming here with these problems over and over; where you might see a single post every couple months about a problem with some other brands of boilers.

I will also agree that some of the problems with the Munchkin were from installer errors; yet their sure seems to be a lot less installer error caused problems on other boilers. Why is that?

The continued reports of warrantee coverage issues for the Muchkin is also interesting. It appears from the postings here that few other companies require you to purchase up front warantee parts and will reimburse you later if they feel that the part was indeed defective; yet this seems to be the standard practice of the Munckin Mfr - as reported by many different people.

Now you can argue that the Muchkin is a great value - and perhaps it is for some situations. But the evidence is that they have lots more problems than other brands of boilers.

There is a reason they are cheap; and in some situations being cheap may be OK. But you are not getting a high quality high reliable boiler with great service for the lowest price in this land. It just doesn't work that way.

If anyone wants to verify this... Just search this forum.

Perry

hot_rod

Fair enough Perry

My first question would be how many of the various brands you have installed or worked on?

How many Munchkins are in operation in the USA compared to the German brand you prefer?

As we speak I have 5 mod cons in my shop, waiting to be installed as the jobs near completion. 1- Vitoden, 1- Contender, and 3- Lochinvar Knights. ALL have Ebm brand fan motors. I've yet to see a mod con that doesn't have that brand on board? I would consider them industry leaders in that component. They, Ebm, have had booths,well staffed, at every trade show I have attended in the past 4 years. That's commitment to the industry in my mind.


Of the 8 different brands I have installed over the years either Dungs or Honeywell gas valves are used, except the Vitoden 200.


I've been to the Munchkin factory and witnessed them test firing every boiler before they ship. I'm 99% convinced not one leaves with a F-09 or F-10 code problem built in.

That leaves shipping related issues or installation related issues. Or most often failure to set them up with an analyzer in the hands of a trained mechanic

I nlike your analytical thinking and approch to issues, but 9 months of following a board doesn't come close to 6 years of actual field experience in the mod con installation and service trade.

The equally important number is how many are in actual operation without any problems. Generally those are not touted on this site, as it is called heatingHELP.com, after all.

When high tech equipment ends up in the hands of un-trained installers or DIYers, bad things happen to good products.

Makes me wonder what % of Munchkins are sold via the WWW to any and all buyers. That is sometmes driven by wholesaler with an online business, on the side Or radiant resellers with 800 numbers and no service or installation training.

hot rod

WaterHeaterGuy

Here's an answer.

> I have to disagree with two of your statements;

> as I believe that they present a false

> picture.

>

> "All mod cons are merely a sum of

> their parts. If the component suppliers send out

> fans or gas valves with "issues" it's hard to

> hold that against the boiler."

>

> I believe that

> the Boiler Mfr should be held responsible for

> their choice of subcomponents. There are few

> real secrets or surprises when buying

> subcomponents. Certain companies have

> reputations for good and reliable components and

> others do not - or have no reputation whatsoever.

> If a company choses to go with component

> suppliers who do not have good and reliable

> reputations and the parts don't stand up... They

> are responsible for their choices.

>

> "Follow

> this board long enough and you will see ALL

> brands suffer from "bugs" from time to time.

> Many, but not all are installer error."

>

> While

> this statement is true it does not present that

> different boilers have different rates of

> problems; and I disagree that many are installer

> errors when applied to all boilers.

>

> I have

> been following this board for over 9 months. The

> Muchkin boiler has an overwhelming large number

> of reports of problems from many many people. So

> many post from different people that they dwarf

> any other boiler brand reports of problems (and

> might even be more than the total number of

> reported problems for all other boilers

> combined).

>

> Now I admit that "new problems"

> are repeats of problems that other posters have

> previously covered. The F9 error code, and fan

> problems are the most common ones. But there has

> to be a reason why new people keep comming here

> with these problems over and over; where you

> might see a single post every couple months about

> a problem with some other brands of boilers.

>

> I

> will also agree that some of the problems with

> the Munchkin were from installer errors; yet

> their sure seems to be a lot less installer error

> caused problems on other boilers. Why is

> that?

>

> The continued reports of warrantee

> coverage issues for the Muchkin is also

> interesting. It appears from the postings here

> that few other companies require you to purchase

> up front warantee parts and will reimburse you

> later if they feel that the part was indeed

> defective; yet this seems to be the standard

> practice of the Munckin Mfr - as reported by many

> different people.

>

> Now you can argue that the

> Muchkin is a great value - and perhaps it is for

> some situations. But the evidence is that they

> have lots more problems than other brands of

> boilers.

>

> There is a reason they are cheap;

> and in some situations being cheap may be OK.

> But you are not getting a high quality high

> reliable boiler with great service for the lowest

> price in this land. It just doesn't work that

> way.

>

> If anyone wants to verify this... Just

> search this forum.

>

> Perry



I will also agree that some of the problems with the Munchkin were from installer errors; yet their sure seems to be a lot less installer error caused problems on other boilers. Why is that?

I'm gonna respond to this question specificly as I think it's a fair question.

Munchkin was the first to bring high efficiency to the common homeowner. With the entire nation preaching "green" and "efficiency" it filled a niche in the industry.

Perry_3

What about design...

You are right in that field installation and service experience translates much more knowlede than someone just reading the reports. Yet, don't dismiss what can be read by reading the reports.

I have no doubt that no unit leaves the factory with a F9 or F10 fault. However, for example I gather from reading the post here that the Munchkin grounds its flame sensor throught the burner mounting screws... Once those screws oxidize a bit - or get dirty when the burner is dismantled for service that problems develop... I also gather that many other manufactures do not ground the flame sensor through such screws. Adding a wire cost money and the desingers of the Muchkin decided to ground throught the frame using the mounting screws. Hence, lots of reports of faults later. Now anyone who follows this board knows that they must clean these screws periodically on a Munchkin. That seems to be added maintenance (not to mention trouble) that other brands don't seem to have.

The fan issue. I understand that it is now resolved in the newer boilers. Yet, how many other Mfr's had fans failing in a lot of boilers. In the nine months that I've monitored this board I don't recall a single other fan failure from any other Mfr. That is also a design issue. Selection of a undersized and/or lighter weight fan... and customers and installers paid big time for the problem. But it was cheaper than selecting a larger or more robust fan.

In the end design goals drive many things. If your goal is to produce the cheapest thing that can get past the warrantee period (which is the goal of most companies for most consumer products) many shortcuts can be taken. If your goal is to produce something that will last and be reliable for many years a different level of concern and approach is used. This also affects the cost of design and set-up so that there is more design and set-up cost in a higher quality unit than a lower quality unit.

I have no doubt that there are a bunch of Munchkins out there. You are right that they are one of a dozen boiler commonly sold direct through the internet. Yet fan problems and grounding through screws are not installation or shipping problems. They are design problems - and design problems typical of lower quality products.

We see the same issues buying commercial equipment for plants. A range of products over a range of prices. There is almost always in inverse proportion of operation and maintenance cost related to the price for industrial equipment. Cheaper equipment cost more to operate and maintain. Expensive equipment cost less to operate and maintain. Within the Utilities... It is very easy to justify the higher cost equipment up front in many cases. Reliability and lower maintenace really add up.

The Muchkin and Vitodens 200 are probable the two home/small commercial boilers that represent the extreems in cost; with a number of boilers in the middle. Of these two extreems - each has their place in the market and neither is appropriate for all applications. However, it does not surprise me that the Muchkin has had a series of problems reported by many people and the Vitodens 200 rarely have such problems reported. In the end, in many cases you do get what you pay for up front.

I have no objection to you or anyone else selling and installing Muchkins. I only hope that you do explain to your customers that as the low cost boiler that it likely be less long term reliable and will need more maintenance than some other boilers on the market.

Perry

hot_rod

I've talked with Dave Davis

on a few ocassions. I never got the impression he would ask Ebm, Honeywell, Dungs, or Giannoni to build un reliable dumbed down versions of their products just for HTP. And I wonder that any of those major manufactures want to have failures, and a reputation of inferior products regardless of the "assembly company budget."

I do know, and have measures dirty power (via the power providers own chart loggers)

Varying gas pressure in a main caused by a large generator load added after the fact. Measured and confirnmed by the utility provider.

Inconsistent gas calorific values due to blending of imported LNG. Again confirmed by the gas supplier. Which is all but impossible for a tech in the field to measure and adjust for.

Any or all of these three conditions will throw any mod con into spasms. Regardless of how much you pay for it.

I understand your point that products can be engineered down to an un acceptable low level. Many of the discount box stores do this with bicycles and wagons, etc. I don't feel that was the case with HTP. Yes they brought a lower price product to the market but I don't feel it was at the compromise of the component manufactures.

I've seen the bobsleds and multi million dollar booth productions that are provided by some boiler companys Nothing against that marketing concept whatsoever but SOMEBODY pays for that!

Being the first manufacture to market mod cons in the USA surely has risks involved. Many manufacturers that waited benefited from the learning curve of the pioneers.

There are BMW buyers and KIA buyers. Boy that KIA warranty sure looks tempting

I've owned a 540 for a number of years now. By far the nicest automobile I have ever driven. And by far the most expensive to maintain when it breaks, and they all will. Including the boiler you own

hot rod

Ken D._3

Chris

We have not bought the thing yet. The customer wants it and the boss wants to sell it. He is getting a good deal from the supplier. Hopefully, he will make the right decision as I will be the one repairing it if needed and hopefully not at 3AM..

Steve Ebels_3

Before you buy it...........

Sit down for an hour and write down your definition of the term "good deal". Seriously. Define all the parameters which would constitute a good deal right now, 3 years from now and 10 years from now.

It'll help you to make the decision that's right for you.

Perry_3

At least KIA honors their warrantees honestly

Hot Rod:

I guess we will have to disagree. I believe that most of the problems I have read about in the last 9 months related to the Muchkin are design issues; and design issues related to intentionally building a low cost product.

I remember relatively few cases of people complaining about problems with the Muchkin due to gas quality or electrical quality issues; but you are right that those issues can affect all boiler brands.

Munchkin was intentionally targeted to be one of the - if not the lowest - cost mod/con boiler out there in the US. You only get there by cutting things, using undersized components, and taking shortcuts.

But to top it off are all the different people who posted that Muchkin warrantee practices are very abnormal. First, in almost all cases they are told that the problems are "installer errors" and not covered by warrantee; when in many cases it was not (how is the fact that the fans shattered an installer error). Second - they have to buy at full price the replacement parts and only get a refund months later if the factory determins that the original part was in fact defective.

Kia has a completely different warranty practice (and by the way - I drive a "Ford" relabled Kia). I also understand that most other boiler companies have completely different warrantee practices - like beliving the heating contractor and giving them the parts.

You can say that HTP was the first American company to enter the mod/con market - and for that they should be praised. I'm OK with that. But I don't buy the argument that many of the problems that have occured were just "learning curve" as I have not read of any other mod/con boilers having those types of failures (how come those companies did not need the same learning curve for some of those issues); nor do I buy that they have any kind of realistic and reasonable warrantee - a situation that HTP clearly created on their own.

Now maybe HTP is working to fix those issues (both the design issues and the warrantee issues); but they have already lost the first round of credibility with a number of heating contractors who experienced both the failures and warantee claim issues (and this is not just what I have read on "the wall" as my local heating contractor installed one several years ago - and tells me he will never install another based on the problems with it and HTP: this was one of the reasons he was very leary of installing any mod/con).

As far as my boiler failing and needing repairs some day. No doubt. But at least I can be confident that the basic boiler will last 15 or 20 years (or longer). I doubt that most Munchkins will last near that long.

As stated before: In most cases people get what the pay for. I do not view the Muchkin a deal for most applications. You seem to. OK; we can disagree on that.

Meanwhile... I'll go look at another Kia as my car is 15 years old and nearing retirement.

Perry

WaterHeaterGuy

What a misleading subject header

I challenge you to show me one instance where HTP unjustly failed to honor their warranty.

clammy

To ken and perry

First to ken ,i have installed for myself and with a partnering plumber at least 1 dozen munchkins from t50 to a 140 and have had no issue with lock out of any sort but we did follow all instructions and followed common and accepted piping practices ,the small number of promblems where basically on start up and where nothing more then lose wiring connections .I also know perry that yes they are the cheapest mod con on the market but the market being what it is it's hard enough to sell a munchkin no less then a vissesmann or a buderus gb142 i know i have tryed to sell the buderus and it was a no deal over the money no less a vissemann which is built to the highest standard around and no one can take that away from there product line at all ,but to just give you an idea over 10 years ago i had the pleasure of going to germany a few times and spending some time there like 2 to 3 weeks at a clip and i went and checked out alot of stuff including walking on to large apartment complexes and checked out and spoke to the german heating gurus working at these jobs and spoke to them about vissemann and buderus asking them about the great vissemann and they laughed stating that vissemann wants the world to think every mech room you open in germnany will contain a vissemann but as the gentleman rested his arms on 2 very large buderus ci boilers and stated that you will see more buderus boilers then vissesmann and that they mostly install buderus and would install vissemann but the cost of vissemann is a little over the top for most of there jobs ,Vissemann stuff is amazing and well built i would love to have one in my home but for me the local supply house that are suppose to dist them shy away from any question about them ,in the over 20 years doing hvac i have only seen 1 set of vissemann oil fired installed the jobs piping was ok not excellent and they ran amazing quite but at over 14 grand for the 2 it seemed like alot (price i was told by contractor)not including the boiler or system piping over 68 grand .Not to bust your you know what but i think boiler snobbery claiming that all except vissemann is garbage is a garbage attuitude not to offend you but have you tryed to sell a vissemann replacement job or new install ?Have you personally installed any ? Do you have any other experences installing standard/mod con boilers besides in your own home?Do you install and service heating equiptment on a day to day bases or do you just post here prasing the almighty vissemann while bashing all others i,m not looking to start a word bashing or a fight this is not the correct place for that i'm just wondering why you bash htp and all others does it make you feel like you got your money worth owning a vissemann .Don't meqan to piss any body off but i wonder after always reading your post .Peace and good lucl clammy at RDEUZA@aol.com

Glenn Sossin_2

Lawsuits

Without naming names, I have word from a very relialbe source, there have been lawsuits involving this boiler.

As I said once before - somethings wrong. I agree with earlier comments, improper installation leads to most issues, however, the manufacturers have a responibility to provide clear, concise, instructions that can easily be followed by some the lesser grade mechanics. I've seen products where you don't get instructions, or worse yet, there in every language but English.

hot_rod

I'm okay disagreeing

on some of your points, and I think you are spot on with others.

Personally I have had excellent dealer, rep, and factory support on the few problems I have encountered. I know other contractors across the country that have had the same positive experience regarding support throughout the "chain of distribution"

Fan impellers sliding off the shaft and breaking up, for example, sounds like a component issue, not installer or boiler manufacture. I suspect HTP paved the way for a redesign before other mod cons ended up with this "weak link" There was quite a time span between the introduction of the Munchkin and the next wave of mod cons offered here.

Sounds like "support" has been the biggest issue in other areas. Dealers and reps should be the first to step up, regardless of the brand. When product gets to the www sales level that gets muddy at best.

I realize a huge discrepency in how warranty is handled from area to area. With over 35 choices of high efficiency heaters, some may be tempted to change brands after a few problems, regardless of the cause. We all know how the sales spiel changes when dealers change brands. I've seen it with everything from boilers to faucets and toilets.

I'm not sure I stated or inferred that Munchkin is the deal for most applications?

Still strikes me as a paradox that you would have a Kia and Viessmann in the same driveway

I rest my case.

hot rod

WaterHeaterGuy

Lawyers.... god help us all.

Well you can sue for just about anything.

Technically the installation manual does not state that kicking the boiler down the stairs is an acceptable delivery method. However if someone was to do that, the boiler might have some problems.

"Well where does it say that we couldn't do that...."

The warranty is very clearly written, and is available to anyone who wishes to view it here:

http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-80.pdf

Like it or not, it is what it is. The fact that someones blower may have failed 3 months outside of the 3 year window is a shame, but S**t happens. I bought a TV that the bulb failed 1 month outside of the 1 year warranty. I knew when I purchased the TV that it had a 1 year parts warranty. The fact that my old TV lasted 15 years is completely irrelevant. Why people continue to raise this issue in defence of their arguement is beyond me.

WaterHeaterGuy

Lawyers.... god help us all.

Well you can sue for just about anything.

Technically the installation manual does not state that kicking the boiler down the stairs is an acceptable delivery method. However if someone was to do that, the boiler might have some problems.

"Well where does it say that we couldn't do that...."

The warranty is very clearly written, and is available to anyone who wishes to view it here:

http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-80.pdf

> ...the manufacturers have a

> responibility to provide clear, concise,

> instructions that can easily be followed by some

> the lesser grade mechanics. I've seen products

> where you don't get instructions, or worse yet,

> there in every language but English.


Personally I think we have to go back to a lesson we all learned back in kindergarden .... If you don't clearly understand something.... ASK someone. Is it just dumb male pride that we keep forgetting this lesson?

If I were a contractor, lord knows I wouldn't be installing something that I didn't either A) have personal knowledge of or have resources available to give me knowledge -ie a distributor support chain.

Chris_82

Once again,...

Show me an instance where they HAVE honored their supposed warranty? Gladly and without putting the customer or the installer threw a gauntlet of hassles designed to get you to pay more than you should in time and money!

Once again a thread run by people who have a psychological investment in a poor choice and a vested interest in installing a substandard product. No real plumber consistently and reliably blames the installation as the root cause of a defective product. This is an overused rhetorical technique that many use as a cheap attempt at persuasion.

You don't have to travel far to find anyone who has had a bad warranty experience with this company compared with the many reputable companies out there! HTP has an abusive and archaic warranty policy that persists because they understand that the consumer of these products has little recourse and ability to do anything other than pay the ransom or tribute to Dave Martin. I am in the process of replacing new Munchkins with more socially responsible products from more respectable and honorable companies. At this point it is the responsible thing to do for our customers. As well as the repeat service calls, which are considerably higher than any other brand. As well as the fact that munchkins are represented almost ten-fold more than any other brand on any DIY or industry web site. Despite the many false claims indicating this is not so.

Obviously the issue persists because there are those that have experienced this abuse and are willing to take the time to warn others of this atrocity. And those that have a financial interest in selling defective products. As a licensed Plumber with over thirty years in this business I no longer have any interest in these Munchkins and the wholesalers and reps that perpetuate this lie.

Chris_82

Good luck, KEN D.

Go into this with your eyes open and your ears up. If it is your intention to sell something that is going to last about 5 years, then fine. Does your customer understand this? This is the fine print and "avalibility huristic" that this manufacturer is counting on for the comparitive sales of this product. What this means is that most customers expect, based upon their last boiler that their freinds, buisness, and neignbors have owned have lasted 50 years. A water heater is not a water heater as anyone in this trade will attest to. The customers however are not aware of this and expect their expensive equipment to last 50 years. And at the top of the list that is not telling the customers that this equipment was never designed to last that long are a few dispicible manufacturers that recive detailed training in how to avoid answereing this question! Never before in my life have I witnessed avoidance to direct questions as when I ask how long is this going to last at trade shows from the HTP sales force. They should run for political office, they are that good. Unfourtunatly you will be stuck with explaing your choice in equipment as many of us have with this product. If your still around in six years.

On the other hand you clearly indicate that price (making a quick buck) is your only concern with this choice, not quality or anticipated longevity or reliability. HTP is counting on this, as well as a new customer also purchasing an endless supplie of replacment parts. This is at the heart of this debate, not "Heating Help." Please also excuse my spelling mistakes, it seems your US english is different from real english UK.

WaterHeaterGuy

Well it'll be the last time for me.

> Show me an instance where they HAVE honored their

> supposed warranty? Gladly and without putting the

> customer or the installer threw a gauntlet of

> hassles designed to get you to pay more than you

> should in time and money!

>

> Once again a thread

> run by people who have a psychological investment

> in a poor choice and a vested interest in

> installing a substandard product. No real plumber

> consistently and reliably blames the installation

> as the root cause of a defective product. This is

> an overused rhetorical technique that many use as

> a cheap attempt at persuasion.

>

> You don't have

> to travel far to find anyone who has had a bad

> warranty experience with this company compared

> with the many reputable companies out there! HTP

> has an abusive and archaic warranty policy that

> persists because they understand that the

> consumer of these products has little recourse

> and ability to do anything other than pay the

> ransom or tribute to Dave Martin. I am in the

> process of replacing new Munchkins with more

> socially responsible products from more

> respectable and honorable companies. At this

> point it is the responsible thing to do for our

> customers. As well as the repeat service calls,

> which are considerably higher than any other

> brand. As well as the fact that munchkins are

> represented almost ten-fold more than any other

> brand on any DIY or industry web site. Despite

> the many false claims indicating this is not

> so.

>

> Obviously the issue persists because there

> are those that have experienced this abuse and

> are willing to take the time to warn others of

> this atrocity. And those that have a financial

> interest in selling defective products. As a

> licensed Plumber with over thirty years in this

> business I no longer have any interest in these

> Munchkins and the wholesalers and reps that

> perpetuate this lie.

ALH_4

Quality

"Still strikes me as a paradox that you would have a Kia and Viessmann in the same driveway"

I'll agree with that. Listen to Viessmann's rationale wrt their warranties, and you will find that buying based on the longest warranty is not their philosophy. On the contrary, Viessmann would recommend buying quality in lieu of a long warranty. Paper warranties are marketing gimmicks. You pay more for anticipated repairs rather than for a design that avoids them in the first place. Quality is its own warranty.

Uni R_2

Ummm....

Andrew, are you aware that the Vitoens 100 is being sold with a lifetime warranty? ;-)

Uni R_2

Ahhh, the teutonic irony here...

Andrew, are you aware that Viessmann is actively promoting the fact that they are offering the Vitodens 100 with a limited "lifetime" warranty? ;-)

You don't even have to go any deeper than www.viessmann.us or www.viessmann.ca before you see it...

WaterHeaterGuy

....

> Show me an instance where they HAVE honored their

> supposed warranty?
> Gladly and without putting the

> customer or the installer threw a gauntlet of

> hassles designed to get you to pay more than you

> should in time and money!


I can show you thousands of instances where they not only honored their warranty on their own issues, but went above and beyond to help out a customer with all kinds of installation related situations.

What "gauntlet" are you talking about? The fact that they make you pay for a part until they get the old part returned to them? I don't know what fairy-tale realm you come from, but without this STANDARD practice in place I would be out tens of thousands of dollars every year if I left it up to the reliability of contractors to return parts back to me. If a guy comes into my office with a defective part, a model & serial number, and an address of the jobsite in hand - there's no charge at all. The fee is simply a tool to keep the process from getting unruly.

BTW - You still didn't give me an instance.

>They also have a great markup and no wonder the

>wholsalers love em IT'S their job to sell! Not fix em!

>There are so many better units avalable, and so many

>factory reps supporting them why take the risk?


Sorry I stole this from your original post, but I just had to add one thing. Not only am I am a factory rep who fixes 'em, I'm also a wholesaler, and I still "fix 'em". You really should be more carefull when you paint with such a wide brush.

ALH_4

Limited Lifetime Warranty

If it is like the Vitodens 200, the lifetime warranty is limited to the heat exchanger. I could certainly be wrong.

pete_22

Munchkin

I have 3 munchkin VWH installed in laundromats supplying hot water for the washers. 2 of them are a 1.8 years old and 1 is 6 months old. So far no problems and these are cunning constantly. If they last 10 years I will be happy.

Brian

Dave

Where in Canada are you?

Dobber

Chris_82

Whos the fairy?,...

Hey Wi-Fi, Standard? Practice, I don't know what rock you deal parts from under but the vast majority of warranty parts are NOT purchased, water heaters as an example. Perhaps your misleading rhetoric fools some of the people but you’re not fooling any plumber who works for a living as against whatever you do? And I am glad you admit "you must purchase" warranty parts. In essence you agree with this extortion? For defective merchandise? And the gauntlet, yes once again the only manufacturer that requires site visits to find the improper installation? And screw over at their cost mind you, all of their customers and service people, this is the gauntlet that only HTP does. Until they and their representatives get it in court and that day is coming sooner than later!

And of course as you so willingly point out yes, there are "thousands" of instances where people are having problems with this inferior product. And once again I can’t help but notice you don’t answer the questions directly asked but once again deflect honest criticisms with personal attacks. You’re a good salesmen, well paid, I imagine, too bad its snake oil you’re selling!

Nothing like "being out" cash hu? I bet all of those honest people who have experienced defects and problems really bug you? Nothing like inconveniencing an entire industry by requiring defective parts be returned before you honor the warranty?

Ken_40

Before I retired ...

late in 2005, we installed around 100 Munchkins. Since my departure, son Scotty probably installed 100 more. Everything from T50's to the 399. Matter of fact, the 399 was so impressive, the design build install we developed for HUD by virtue of a local, Rahway, NJ Senior Housing Project, funded by HUD was accepted as a "standard" in energy conservation in wet heat systems - became a "model" of how it should be done for any other HUD funded housing in the region.

Installed around 5 years ago, the system has functioned flawlessly (after one combustion tweak from our laptop - a week after initial install and a few one of two boiler flame failures).

A huge (over 50 unit) Munchkin install at a nearby ski/condo resort area prompted a meeting from none other than Chuck Shaw, tech support supervisor at HTP a month ago. Wanting to see what the account looked like, I met Chuck at the site and looked over his shoulder as he went over damn near every single install and "problem" boiler in the 50 or so recently installed.

In every instance of a failure code evident, the installing contractor seriously compromised the make up and discharge air vent/piping. The in-house tech/employee was bright. He, Chuck and I looked at every boiler, lifted the ceiling tiles to see the venting ells, 2 X 3" adaptors, and without fail, noted incorrect feet of venting vs. book specs on every unit that ever had a fault code logged.

Of the 50 or so units, Chuck found 2 units that were obviously improperly installed and acting so wierd, that he told the on-site guy he would replace the boilers at NO CHARGE; simply so they could bench test them at the factory to learn why the wrong venting did what it did - as well as perhaps a way to make later variations even more bullet-proof than already exist.

I said nothing, merely observed and loved scoping out all the upscale condos and boiler installs from two or three nearby plumbers/contractors. We were there inspecting for hours.

All the installs looked nice. The screw ups were obvious. We get 3-5 feet of standing snow up there. Intake and exhaust vents were installed 2 feet above grade. A few were thru the roof. These had way too much restriction vent-length wise; exceding the developed lengths by 30-50%! But they still ran! The histories showed the soft lock-outs.

Apparently the architect specked the Munchkins, not the plumbers. The resort folks love the boilers. The plumbers apparently do as well - despite them not knowing how to vent them properly. All of them run. Some were months old. Some have been in place for almost five years.

If NG or LP were my choices, (and NG was not because it is not available in this part of VT); and, since LP is available, but not without outdoor tanks that look hideous, or in-ground tanks thet lock you into the supplier who installed it, therefore denying access to "competive fuel pricing," the Munchkin would have been in the home of my dreams.

Oil being less expensive per BTU and easy to store in a 275, I went with the most efficient oil boiler I could find. That wound up being the FCX oil-con.

I would never promote a boiler because it's cheap. But when the boiler you trust, have installed 100+ of without any failures or shortfalls also happens to be cheap... I think we call that a home run!





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Ken_40

Say what?

You wrote:

"If it is your intention to sell something that is going to last about 5 years, then fine. Does your customer understand this?"

Spoken like the poster boy from Deutschland.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to tell us how many Munchkins you've ever seen, other than in pictures?

Water heater? You meant "cylinder" didn't you(;-o)

There's nothing wrong with your Brit spelling, just the absurd conclusions you draw about Yank boilers.

It would appear you have fallen prey to the Orange Boiler mantra, "Great Marketing will overcome mediocre engineering every time; typically in a ratio of 2:1."

Like you, here in the States, we also have a handful who believe everything from Germany is superior. We spell it, "Gullible"

How do the Brits spell it?

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WaterHeaterGuy

How old are you?

#1 and probably the most important point I wish to make here, I AM NOT A SALESMAN. Sheesh .. There really is no need for personal attacks here.

#2 My company is an authorized Bradford White service agent, complete with a UL bench to wire their commerical electric products, as well as a wholesaler of their entire product line. THEY HAVE THE SAME POLICY IN REGARDS TO WARRANTY.

#3 Funny that you keep bringing up the fact that you are a plumber... I go out on water heaters that are installed incorrectly too. Installation related issues aren't solely limited to the high efficiency / sealed combustion equipment, but it is more prevelant, Seems to me that with the onset of this type of technology that some of the 'old timers' can't seem to let go of their pride and ask for assistance with some of the newer concepts and system controls. Or even (god forbid) READ an installation manual.

#4 I don't know what questions you are accusing me of 'dodging'... all I know is that ever since I got involved in this thread I have asked you for 1 specific instance where HTP unjustly failed to honor their warranty, and have yet to receive it.

#5 and lastly ... This will be the last time I visit this thread. This forum is not the place to be having these kinds of discussions. I do wish to point out once again because it seems to be a sticking point with you. If you bring in a defective part, along with proper documentation, then there is NO CHARGE. Now if you CHOOSE not to drive to your dealer then that's up to you. That choice comes with a pricetag, buy the part and receive credit when the part is returned.

Good luck to you in your future endeavours.

Robert O'Brien

I

assume this the Dan I met at HTP last August. I've never met a Rep in my life with the product knowledge He has.Short of the factory I can't imagine anyone having more Munchkin expertise.

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Steve Ebels_3

I'll say this

Regarding Munchkin's in particular; In any and all instances where there was an issue non related to installation, HTP has stood behind their product faithfully. Frankly, I could expect no better service than what I have been given. The Munchies work as advertised, delivering very good efficiency in any application I have used them for. Am I satisfied with the product? As with any mechanical piece of equipment I have ever laid hands on, there are a few things I'd like to see changed but the Munchkin performs its duties very well.

Now let me state a few facts regarding Mod-cons in general. (Note the word FACTS and look up the definition of the word to be clear on its meaning)

Fact 1. Anyone buying a mod-con boiler and expecting it to sit unattended for years like their old cast iron boiler did will be sorely disappointed. ALL Modulating/condensing boilers demand competent, annual service by someone who has the proper testing equipment and knowledge. Choose to ignore this and you choose to have an unwanted but usually preventable failure.

Fact 2. Under no circumstances should any mod-con boiler be placed into service without correct combustion tuning using a digital combustion analyzer. Why? Because there is no such thing as being "setup" out of the box. (Vitodens being the exception) If you as either a homeowner or a contractor don't have access to a combustion analyzer, you shouldn't be firing up a mod-con boiler.

Fact 3. Mod-con boilers must be installed correctly with no mistakes or corners cut. There is no exception to that rule, not even with a Viessmann. Mod-cons are sensitive creatures designed to wring the last possible drop of heat out of your fuel. Because they run out at the ragged edge so to speak, venting, condensate drainage, combustion setup, flow rates and temperature rise become very critical. Set up and applied properly they will all provide a life span commensurate with the design of the product. Set up or installed poorly or incorrectly, ANY brand will give you lots of headaches and make you wish for your cast iron, standing pilot 65% efficient monster.

Fact 4. 99 out of 100 homeowners who buy a mod-con boiler and install it themselves will find that they have done themselves a disservice. There are too many things that you do not know and indeed can't know about these boilers unless you have the experience and training to overcome the inherent learning curve presented by them. I am ashamed to say it but probably 8 out of 10 "professionals" operating in my area would fall into that category also. It's what you don't know that will cause you problems. Will these problems be readily seen? Sometimes, but more often they will show up down the road after something on the boiler has failed, the boiler has shut down or been ruined completely.

As I have said here before, "this is not your father's boiler".

Ken_40

How...

True!

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pete_22

I had a HVAC guy install my boilers. Before he started the job I told hime to read the manual. I also read the manual over to double check his install. He did make a mistake on the venting and I made him redo it before we fired it up. I think many "pros" don't read and follow directions because they "know it all"

Steve Ebels_3

Exactly!

With any brand of these new high efficiency boilers, correct application, installation and set up are vastly more important than the brand when it comes to correct operation. Older units tolerated poor work because of larger flue passages with simple burners and controls. While M/C boilers are far more efficient, they are that way because of tighter tolerances, more sophisticated controls and higher tech burners. All of which leave little margin for error.

[Deleted User]

Lawsuits and being in business...

If you ARE in business, and you HAVEN'T been party to a suit, its just a matter of time.

I think its unfair, and unwise to mention someones legal underwear in public, unless of course you too want to become embroiled in the legal action.

Personally, I have never been denied a claim from HTP. I think a lot of it has to do with approach and attitude, Chris...

ME

Paul Pollets

Right On!!

Steve, you've nailed it on all accounts!

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