Steam Traps

David L. Taylor

THANKS...

http://www.gspn.com/tunstall/capsules.html

I'll be calling them sometime this week.

I have until the beginning of the heating season to finish this job and will update on this forum for those who are interested. Choices are Replace whole trap, replace innards, orifice plates.

David L. Taylor

Radiator traps in two pipe steam

I'm looking for a simple way to determine if the very inaccessible radiator traps are OK or not. It's a 16 story office building with nightmarish "configurations of carpentry & screen" enclosing most radiators.
TWO QUESTIONS:
1- Do the radiator traps in a NYC 2 pipe steam building normally fail in the open or closed position?
2- Will the radiator reveal the condition of the trap by staying cold?
THANKS FOR ASSISTANCE.

Brad White_2

Radiator Traps

tend to fail as they damned well please....in NYC. Here in Boston, they do the same but with a ridiculous accent.

Some more information is needed but from here, I can only offer a few general ideas:

A loose piece of crud could as easily find it's way to the seat and prop it open. A bellows leak or huge slug of crud/blockage might force it shut. My experience is that failing open is the more likely occurance, probably 2:1, but from here, who can tell?

That is in response to question #1.

To question #2, "it depends" on what the symptom is.

I assume that the problem can be identified and limited to a single radiator? The traps are typically right at the outlet underneath configurations of carpentry and screen, alas. But if one radiator is cold, start there.

Here is where it gets dicey. If you have a cold radiator, it could be due to another radiator trap failed open, allowing steam to go into the return line. This in turn holds back condensate hence steam input, to many more radiators.

How limited or widespread is the percieved problem? Is there a problem at all? (Trying to prove a negative you may not have.) Or are you are on a Preventive Maintenance routine,(and good for you)?

If it is a line trap, (mains, risers but not one particular radiator) the simplest way (if you know which line and trap is in question) is to feel your way along the piping or use an infrared thermometer if you cannot reach it. Find where the line of hot and cold occur if you suspect "Fail Closed". If you suspect a "Fail Open" scenario, you would seek the difference between "hot" and "YEeeeeeooow, is that HOT".

Bring aloe gel.

David L. Taylor

TRAPS

Just wanted to say THANKS for taking the time to provide helpful insight on this topic. Just for the record... We've already had the basement traps professionally tested and replaced faulty ones. This resulted in immediate & visible savings!
Now (during the summer) I'm trying to talk the Building Mgr. into replacing ALL radiator steam traps in the building. They are located in the worst possible places and replacement surely will cause great inconvenience to our tenants (commercial office building); But they probably haven't been replaced in over twenty years and we've got overheating problems galore (continual, annual, cranking up of pressure to get to the top of bldg).
Thanks again - Your response was appreciated.
David L. Taylor - Bldg. Supt.

John_102

trapped down South

Hey, David -

Just a home owner here, but for what it's worth, I've had traps function perfectly for probably 50+ years & traps that failed in a season. A PM schedule is the way to go - do we change oil only when the idiot light comes on (ignore that 38 year-old truck parked under the trees)? I've had traps fail open & closed (I've got one failed open now and none are three years old). If the super thinks a little carpentry is a hassle, I've got a 30 foot belly crawl down with the brown recluses that might change his mind.

Peace & good luck.

- John

Brad White

This is good, David

Great that you could see some savings right away - how encouraging is that?

Darn it, aren't the traps inconveniently located? But yes, do all. One can wreak havoc beyond it's own failure.

Cranking up pressure- This above all prompted me to respond: Resist that. It creates far more harm than good. The Empire State Building heats nicely on 2 PSI, 3 on a cold day and that is measured in the basement. Really!

A good P.M. program makes such good sense. Why wait for trouble? Good for you.

Unknown

cranking up the pressure?! un-hooo

Here's come the steam mafia... Cranking up the pessure is one of the worst thing u can do to steam hesting system.. Learned that long time ago til the St. Holonan came along and gave a sermon about pressure on steam system... How many psi are u running the system at? Are you in veiw of Empire State bldg?

David L. Taylor

Empire State Building on 2 - 3 lbs!!!! Holy Moly. I can see, unobstructed, the ESB from the roof and from many windows (facing East) of my building at West 33rd St. & 7th Ave.
I'm embarased to say we're probably up to mabye about, maximum 4 lbs. It's been cranked up over the years by increasing the return line temperature sensor on the Heat Timer (last viewed printout showed temp. was 180+ F).
I don't know if you really want to read this; but my boss' response to ever increasing invoices was to replace the Heat Timer with a computer (few months ago). The Heat Timer remains as a back-up control.
I was never consulted on this until after the contractor showed up. All I can see is that the computer print-outs tell us what we already know - that the room temperatures, and return line temperature are way too high.
My suggestion to replace radiator steam traps is meeting resistance only because of the great inconvenience to tenants. Also the Bldg. Mgr. seems somewhat skeptical of the results (savings); however last week advised that I could start replacing traps in bldg. corridors, empty offices, least difficult jobs, offices of friendly tenants, etc. Surprise surprise - It looks like my suggestion has turned into MY PROJECT. Actually I'm happy to do it - The summer isn't too busy and I work for terrific people (although I wish I had better compensation - typical gripe). If I get half the traps done over the summer and can convince the Bldg. Mgr. to use the Heat Timer this coming Heating Season instead of New Computer, the demonstrated savings should make me look pretty good (mabye I'll get a raise).

Brad White

To make your job easier

you may not have to replace the traps, just the guts.

Contact Tunstall Associates in Chicopee, MA.

http://www.tunstall-inc.com/tunstallinfo.html

They make replacement parts for nearly every trap imaginable. Great folks to deal with. Keep the body, replace the parts which do the work. If you have a sample trap body, send it to them if not otherwise identifiable.

Just another suggestion.

I asked the ESB facilities department which is where I got the information. It takes so little pressure to do the work and low pressure moves faster than high pressure anyway, because it is bigger. True.

David L. Taylor

Replacing Trap Guts

Thanks for the suggestion - Definitely sounds like the way to go and I'de very much prefer to do exactly that; but there might be a problem...
I just called a plumber friend of mine who advises that sometimes the impression inside the body of the valve (seat or base) left by the old guts don't line up precisely with the new parts. Unfortunately I won't be able to see the results during the summer months. By the start of new heating season, my work will already have been covered up with drywall and office furniture. Still, it would be worth it if this sort of problem only occurs to a very small percentage of rebuilts and it sure would make my life easier. My plumber friend also says that because of this problem, his boss requires full replacement, not rebuilding. I wish I had a way of knowing. Thanks again.

Brad White_180

That is a reasonable approach, David.

As you said, the collateral cost of concealment conundrum.... a little alliteration here!

Every approach has it's place and time; your approach makes sense given all of your realities.

Just trying to keep Detour Dave from making any unnecessary detours

Steamhead (in transit)

Trap replacement innards

from Tunstall or Barnes & Jones also include a seat built into the replacement "cage" or "capsule". So as long as the new piece seals to the trap body, you should be fine. We've done hundreds of traps this way without a problem.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

David L. Taylor

Traps for 2 pipe steam

I doubt anybody's going to read this; but I did promise to update:
With some back-up from Mgt's heating contractor, I've been working on rebuilding all radiator traps; body intact, replace guts. Thus far I've rebuilt approx. 80 - 85 traps and permanantely removed radiator enclosures of sheetrock (5/8"), plywood (3/4"), related framing and small, screened openings. The built-up enclosures have all been replaced with metal radiator enclosures.
As many individual radiators no longer overheat, the indication is that those traps had failed in the open position.
It's nice to go into an office and NOT see the A/C running during heating season.
Unfortunately, there is a problem with one side of the building too hot; but I'm told zone valves are required to resolve this problem. Way over my head and, as I've been advised that there are many problems with zone valves, I'm going to look for an alternative solution to propose to Mgt.
By the way, I GOT A RAISE!!!!

Jamie Hall

of course somebody read it!

and Bravo! I've been following this one -- my building is a lot smaller, but hey, the problems are similar! Good for you -- and I'm delighted you got the raise!

Zone valves aren't that bad, by the way -- although they aren't really cheap, either.

[Deleted User]

It's Hard to Miss

Dave, a lot of people will read this. But, many won't be as knowledgeable and able to offer positive suggestions as are Brad and Frank.
Thanks for the follow-up as you promised.

bruhl

Brad White_185

Well this is welcome news!

I appreciate the check-back too, David. Yes it is a lot of work but it pays dividends.

The folks at Tunstall can advise if zone valves are in order so long as you have a relationship with them. Give them a shout..

Congratulations on the raise- you earned it by your own initiative. Let's see if we cannot solve the overheating issue and make you the CEO. Or not

David L. Taylor

Steam Traps

What a pleasant surprise!! Thanks to all for your advice and ideas which helped me in this project. Great group of people.