Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Why the sophisticated expensive controllers?
Comments
-
Your right Ken
It also won't bend, dent, load up with dust, fall apart, cut your hand when you try and install it or repair it, slip close and cause a not heat call to a bedroom that has all the covers closed or better a bed and desk in front of it.
Copper finned baseboard is the cheapest thing ever made !
Scott
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
bb vs rads
Ken, have you run systems with hot water baseboard on constant circulation with the only control over individual zones being the dampers? I have never tried that. Does it work well? It seems like the range of control would be limited.
What looks really nice is a nickel plated TRV valve with a 1/2" stainless steel nipple running down through a nickel-plated shower arm escutcheon with a set screw, through the floor to a threaded pex adapter. Additionally, you can install a steel panel radiator in minutes this way with nothing more than a drill,wrench, and a pex crimp tool. All that for a little more than $100 per radiator to the customer.0 -
I'm not sure exactly what it is
that you are trying to promote.
What are you suggesting?... that someone should build his own op amp room thermostat? ... burner modulation control? oil burner primary control? boiler temperature aquastat or high limit?
Would you breadboard it?... Wire wrap it? ....Solder wires and resistors to the pins of the op amp?... Etch your own circuit board?
Although there are op amps that don't require a dual voltage supply, many do require + - 15 vdc. I don't think you can just discount the necessity of a power supply. You'd need some sort of amplifier to supply sufficient power to the actuators that control what ever it is you're controlling.
I don't understand why it wouldn't need programmed. I would say more accurately it couldn't be programmed, flexibility being one of the great advantages of digital anything. Could you control ramp up or ramp down times? Could you have multiple alarms, setpoints, or outputs?
Would any inspection authority or insurance agency approve of such a thing?
Nobody likes to make his own stuff better than I do, but there are lots of things that are relatively simple in theory...
What exactly are we getting for less than ten bucks ?
I'm feeling a little condescention here.0 -
My digital condescention detector is flashing.
albeit less accurately than an analog one.
0 -
RC-10
The RC-10 which was originally packaged with the gb it is now an optional device. I guess this sort of control didn't integrate so well with multi zone heating. They now include a outdoor reset control AM-10 which is geared more toward typical multi zone systems. Unfortunately their outdoor control is not really designed for constant circulation, For one thing it's buried within the boiler cover, secondly the interface is clumsy (non existent.) no shift adjustment dial like on the vitodens for room temp adjustment.
A typical gb instal using the AM-10 control would involve a curve set higher than necessary and indoor bang bang thermostats in the various zones. Yes the control could be adjusted closer to the actual heat loss and something close to constant circulation could be accomplished. But burying the control within the enclosure was a really bad move for the homeowner who wants to understand and fine tune the heat curve.
With responsive emitters (not radiant) in a single zone system the RC-10 is a probably a better choice. This control (from what I understand) controls water temp based on indoor air temp. I think this would work very well except in the case of high mass systems which really need to respond to changes in out door temp before those changes are measurable within the structure.
As far as integrating this type of indoor feedback control with TRV's, I see some potential problems. Imagine the user adjusts a TRV which is in proximity to the indoor sensor, the circulating temp would rise to compensate unless it was also adjusted down, but this which might effect other areas in an undesired way. Because the controls can not "talk" to each other they may respond in ways that are in conflict. Sort of like when the ac comes on because the heat is too high.
I'm not sure why you TRV advocates cant acknowledge how well digital controls (TN4) can address all these issues. Yes this approach is more expensive, but it can do a lot more. Mike retrofiting TRV's to your existing theromo siphon cast iron heating system was undeniably the best choice for your situation. But if you gave me those radiators and a gutted old house a few 300' coils of 1/2'' fosta pex a generous budget for tn4 thermostats, zone manager, boiler control and a bunch of zone valves or manifold actuators I'm certain that the resulting heating system would be superior in several respects. For one thing the TN4 automatic differential would greatly improve your short cycle situation. No valves interfering with the classic look of those radiators, a fully integrated system capable of multiple zone setback schedules and rapid recovery. Plus highly efficient nearly continuous operation.
Also, perhaps synchronized pulsed operation has an efficiency benefit. The effect of a cast iron radiator cooling off for 5 min. then running for 3 min. etc etc. might actually deliver average return water temps. that are close to what constant circulation would have produced. Plus no differential bypass valve.0 -
Realolman, Thanks for the complements, The blue box is a tn4 boiler control and zone manager, If your interested tekmar has some excelent essays that explain the nature of it's operation, benifits etc. go to their web site- literature- essays. The capped valves are for service, draining of indivdual zones, the circulators are for individual manifolds- zones. The chioce of circulators over zone valves was made because of the relitivly high head required for the 5/16 radiant tubing, and because of the consistent flow rates that they would ensure. The pipe fittings are viega propress, the crossovers were used to create a very compact and attractive circulator bank. most of the 15-58 circulators will operate on the low setting so electric usage will be reasonable, The air eliminator is by spirotherm it's above the expansion tank, I realy like the spiro trap it's relatively unknown underused device0 -
Good grief
I looked at this picture, and someone posted something about it being on the ceiling, and I thought it was on the ceiling.
No wonder I couldn't make hide nor hair outta it.
I saw a thing back in there and I thought, "that looks like a level hanging back there."
Then...
I turned the picture 90° and voila... It makes all kinds of sense now. The level is standing in the corner, like levels sometines do.
Well, I'm feeling pretty stupid now, I shouldn't even post to tell anyone, but what the heck... I hope someone else will post and say they thought it was on the ceiling, also. But the workmanship is even nicer, now.
Good grief.
It's no disgrace to be dumb, but it's unhandy as heck.0 -
I'm not at all surprised that the RC-10 control for the Buderus GB is now "optional". Why? The very reason you stated--it's not going to work well with multi-zoned systems.
The intent of the RC-10 is to set up a "master" area that sets the ciculating temperature for an entire constantly circulating system. No problem with a well-designed system even without TRVs but as soon as you start adding fully independent zones the "master" no longer knows what's happening elsewhere.
I've never used or experienced the Tekmar TN4 system. Considering it addresses nearly every issue I've ever proposed, I can only say, "Bravo Tekmar!" The only bad thing I've heard is that it's rather intimidating to the user--even though the controllers look and generally operate like typical wall thermostats, it can be difficult to understand their interactions.
My highest suggestion for Tekmar is still to develop a controller capable of varying the primary circulation speed to just meet the load. As is, they've done a wonderful job of addressing adaptability and comfort at the expense of efficiency from a mod-con. Frequently (I mean over 10 or so minutes) adjusting the output of a mod-con takes a toll on efficiency--especially when such is done to serve only a small portion of the entire system.
If the occupant desires the ability to independently maintain space temperature in each room/logical space I still can't imagine a more cost-effective method than TRVs in a two-pipe system.0 -
Scott
Nice looking install.
I have not tried the TN4 with the GB yet, only the Prestige. I am quite impressed with it. Easy to connect and program with the Prestige and the AM4 module.
How do you like it with the GB?? I have a few GB's coming up with the TN4. Any pointers?
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
I give the customer both
Depending on the size and layout of a house, we use one or more manifolds to run out to the panel rads. Usually, each manifold will have its own circ which we power up from a circulator control panel. The panel relays are controlled via the XC contacts from the WWSD on the boiler. Each circ/manifold combo is controlled by a thermostat, programmable if the customer so desires. This gives us the ability to do area setbacks if desired as well as a room temp "high limit" if you will. The specific layout and location of the master thermostat(s) is of course dependent on the owners preference and the layout of the house.
Doing it that way still allows individual room control with the TRV's, provided the owner gets over the habit of adjusting the temp with the thermostat and provides easy and inexpensive day or night setback.
BTW, I have seen very little real world reduction in fuel use unless the setback used is in the range of 10* or greater. Not worth it in my book when compared to the elegant simplicity of a TRV system.
In the case of a TRV system being driven by an intelligent boiler such as the Vitodens, the setback, if desired can be done by the boiler itself via lowering of the curve/water temp for a given period of time.
I have to say that the higher the system mass, the less benefit you get from setback and it may even cost more to operate IMHO.0 -
-
GB and tekmar
Mark, I'm very pleased with it's operation. you will need an Em-10 module from buderus to control the boiler with 1-10v signal. It does feel wasteful to discard the outdoor reset control that comes with the boiler. Of note: after watching the system in operation I noticed that the boiler was moving toward target temperature a bit faster than seemed necessary, and not ramping down to minimum modulation as soon as it should. This was based on my own intuition of what I believed the control should be doing. I brought the subject up with tekmar support. They were very forthcoming with the fact that the software version on my board was not the latest and that improvements related to what I had observed had been made, A few days later a new board arrived fed-X.
This is a very cool company with excellent support, they were under no obligation to send me a new board but did so out of an honest recognition of the legitimacy of my complaint. I don't think this will be an issue for you unless you get some old stock.Interestingly they warranty the controls from date of manufacture not sale. P.S the new board solved the problem
One design consideration. The boiler does come with an 10k sensor and relay for DHW. this sensor type control is superior to the on/off aqustat type control which controls DHW on the tekmar 420. However it will only operate in priority mode this way and will not be integrated into occupied/unocupied modes etc.0 -
Mike, tN4 boiler control logic is smarter than you and I combined. Tekmar is and has always been about low, slow changes. Just because they sample all the time and keep track of everything doesn't mean they are frantically throwing the boiler around like crazy. If you're cycling, it tries to keep cycling at a reasonable level. If you're modulating, it tries to modulate as low as possible and to run as consistently as possible.
What makes it great is that it knows what is going on in the zones AND the boiler. It makes whatever compromise needs to be made at the time, depending on what's happening, but it has *all* the info needed to make the decision.
their boiler controls alone have done good things for efficiency on conventional boiler systems, and I seriously doubt they are doing anything less with mod/cons.
Also, exactly what toll on efficiency does nudging a gas valve a little wider or narrower have?0 -
Also, exactly what toll on efficiency does nudging a gas valve a little wider or narrower have?
I've been told that be a number of people in different capacities, but will honestly say that I've never received a good answer as to "why".
My best understanding is that the "nudging" does not itself cause much inefficiency--it's the fact that such "nudging" has to occur that prevents the system from operating at peak efficiency.
As you know the efficiency of conventional boilers is based on steady-state operation. Which such rarely (if ever) occurs in the real world, in theory at least it puts all conventional boilers on a relatively even rating basis.
With variable modulation (not rough step "modulation") however a mod-con can achieve steady-state operation in the real world in a great variety of conditions. The lower the operating temperatures and the lower the burner level the greater the overall efficiency, but the key here is that it's possible to achieve the highest possible efficiency by operating at steady-state conditions.
This steady state occurs when room temperature is neither rising nor falling and the boiler's output matches the load on the system as closely as possible. Once this is achieved, even changing outdoor weather does not cause much of a problem as long as you regulate the supply temperature based on outside temperature The boiler can transition between supply temperatures without loosing the steady-state.
Achieving room temperature that is neither rising nor falling requires some sort of proportional control. As long as the system has only a single zone it's fairly easy--the simplest (and probably most effective way is via proportional indoor temperature feedback using a vector-driven thermostat to a boiler with outdoor reset. The indoor feedback will "tweak" the curve slightly to just maintain setpoint while still allowing outdoor temperature to change the curve. Without the outdoor reset some sort of "catch up" is inevitable. I'm almost positive this is the basic philosphy of the Tekmar TN4 system when it drives a single zone system and has control of a modulating burner.
As you mentioned, this has an advantage over TRVs in that the thermostat itself can change the heating curve should the user change its setting significantly. TRVs themselves are incapable of changing the boiler's heating curve nor can an on-off thermostat used as a "master" for a TRVd system change the heating curve. However, when the user does make such a change and expects rapid response the system is thrown out of its steady-state balance and depending on the amount of the change and the weather it can take a significant period of time--sometimes days--to re-achieve the same level of steady-state balance. This is much of the reason I believe that daily setback is not a very good idea with a mod-con and at least a reasonably insulated/weatherized structure. The system rarely--if ever--achieves the steady-state conditions that result in the highest possible efficiency. Mark Etherton published the results of his setback vs. non-setback test in his own house here and found essentially no difference in fuel consumption.
Multiple zones using either on-off valves or on-off circulators usually cause a similar problem even if the zones use vector-driven thermostats. Such systems nearly always (if not always) use some form of primary/secondary. With a changing secondary flow rate it is impossible to maintain a consistent secondary supply temperature unless the primary flow is variable. While a sophisticated controller can analyze zone on-off run time as compared to thermostat settings (or change thereof) and outside temperature and compute a reasonable burner rate (providing it has control of the burner) to keep zones calling as long as possible, it's very unlikely to achieve reasonably steady-state operation for any period of time--most certainly if different zones use different daily setback schedules.
Again, provided the controller is operating the mod-con's burner, it may well appear that steady-state has been quite well achieved as the burner could easily stay at the same level for extended periods of time. The system as a whole however is not at steady state because the individual zones are not receiving "just their share" of the total system load. In other words they are either heating or cooling at different rates and are "uncoupled" from their actual load. As zones cycle (they inevitably will), the relative rate of heating/cooling among them will change because while the secondary flow rate has changed, the primary flow rate has not. BTW, the greater the mass of the emitters the less to occupant will notice such, but this does not mean that it's not happening.
From what I've read about the TN4 system, I'm almost positive that it incorporates "learned", variable hysteresis in the zones. For all connected zones using the same supply temperature it will pay very careful attention to the rate of space temperature change compared to the other zones. To keep burner output and/or supply temperature as consistent as possible for as long as possible, the controller will allow varying degrees of over- and under-shoot in each zone. Zones that experience a relatively rapid increase in space temperature will be allowed higher variance.
Concurrently, the controller is carefully examining the rate of response when the user raises a zone thermostat. During the "learning" phase, it will very likely begin with some fixed increase in burner ouput and examine the rate of temperature change over some period of time while maintaining circulation and temporarily increasing hysteresis to all other zones that were calling when the thermostat was raised. In this way it can get a quite reasonable estimate of the relative size of each zone.
Over time, the controller will learn a base level of burner firing or supply temperature that will keep as many zones as possible circulating for as long as possible and it will also learn how much extra burner firing or supply temperature to add depending on how much the user raises a thermostat in a given zone. Very smart--but still in my mind a rough approximation of the steady-state conditions that can be achieved via TRVs or a directly connected single-zone system.
0 -
A Significant Difference
In no way am I maligning Tekmar controls nor am I making a Viessmann commercial, but here is the difference between the control philosophy:
The Viessmann Vitodens begins on the assumption of steady-state operation. EVERYTHING about it is designed to achieve such the greatest amont of time in the broadest possible range of conditions as well as within the greatest possible range of system design.
I've heard enough feedback (public and private) regarding the Vitodens to say without a doubt that it is the only boiler currently available that quite accurately maintain space temperature without sensing space temperature. It does so with one and only one temperature sensor input--"boiler temperature".
How is this possible?
Two reasons: 1) Match system output to system load on a real-time basis--e.g. "steady-state" operation. 2) Variable flow.
These two concepts are inextricably linked--you cannot achieve one on a consistent basis without the other.
0 -
single zone
Mike the tn4 system is designed for multiple zones. If a one zone system for a single modulating boiler was desired the 270 is a nice control.
What you conveniently ignore in your steady state efficiency TRV argument is the efficiency robbing bypass valve and curve operating higher than necessary to allow some upward adjustment of trv's.
From My observations of tekmar controls and the Viessmann comfortrol unit I would say that the Tekmar has the edge in-terms of short cycle under low load conditions.
You make such a big deal about this steady state condition and yet your own system which you hold as ideal operates in short cycle mode for the majority of the heating season. How many on off cycles did you say your data logger recorded in a season? I'm not saying this operation is inefficient. What I'm proposing is that a zone which is operated at a somewhat higher temperature than necessary and "pulsed" to prevent over heating is no less efficient than the same zone or radiator that is flow restricted and dumping it's excess head thru a bypass valve.
Even if we take the bypass valve out of our calculation and look at average return water temperature (which determines to a large extent the efficiency of a condensing boiler) It seems reasonable to assume that a zone which is being moderated by relatively short on off cycles will deliver quite cool return when it is initially turned on again. Much the same as your "pulsing mode" vitodens.
As to your latest post yes a direct connected vitodens with high surface area emitters ( and no bypass valve) is probably the most efficient possible residential heating system available, Maby even better than a good geo exchange system.0 -
steady state puzzle
Achieving room temperature that is neither rising nor falling ....
sounds to me like there is no heatloss here???0 -
0 -
I have used
the EM-10 with the Tekmar 260. This was before the TN4 was available.
The TN4 stuff is amazing.
Where in NY are you?
I'm near Saratoga.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Quote from Mike
"I've heard enough feedback (public and private) regarding the Vitodens to say without a doubt that it is the only boiler currently available that quite accurately maintain space temperature without sensing space temperature. It does so with one and only one temperature sensor input--"boiler temperature". How is this possible? Two reasons: 1) Match system output to system load on a real-time basis--e.g. "steady-state" operation. 2) Variable flow. These two concepts are inextricably linked--you cannot achieve one on a consistent basis without the other."
-----------------------------------------------------------
To me, it looks pretty impossible to control the temperature without having a measure of that temp you are trying to control. And what determines the variation in the flow ? Isn't that determined by some "error" detection scheme between the zone setpoint temp and the actual temp.
Could you please explain this contradiction to me?
Another thing; in order to get zero "error" in any mutipole control system such as this, you must have some integral control.
Finally, I am not convinced that all that high rate cycling at low load conditions, especially your system is a good idea or even justified since wear and tear on a high cycle pulsing system will wreak thermomechanical havoc on the boiler not to mention potential thermal inefficiencies--for example fatigue stresses on the boiler heat exchanger. I think a modest amount of overshoot should be allowed as a tradeoff for lower cycle rates. It strikes me that for very tight homes,without heat input, it may take the order of hours for a room to lose 1 degree even at higher loads, which shows that the system is dead slow, so why the need to precisely control the boiler temp at these low loads, and consequently, the high cycle rate.
I am presently doing a computer analysis using SPICE (an electric network analyser) to determine this for my own home which is far from tight and have some preliminary results that suggest more like cycle rates of at most 2 per hour at low loads. My model is a 2 mass model, i.e. the boiler+radiator thermal mass and the room mass. I will do it for more general parameters and possibly three mass systems to corroborate my resultsand will post here if possible
0 -
> the EM-10 with the Tekmar 260. This was before
> the TN4 was available.
>
> The TN4 stuff is
> amazing.
>
> Where in NY are you?
>
> I'm near
> Saratoga.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
Mark. I'm in the mid-hudson valley ,west side of river close to new paltz and kingston. I am relatively new to the hydronic arts, many years in renovation and building, got into this initially as an expansion of those services, I am interested in focusing on this type of work more in the future. I see an opportunity in this field for people who can understand and communicate the advantages that new technologies have brought to this trade. I'm passionate about the importance of energy efficiency and have always emphasized it's importance in the building envelope work that I have done. Mechanical systems, heating specifically are a natural progression of this interest. I'm a big fan of tekmar, very few company's layout the underlying principals of there products with such clear and un-commercialized bias.
0 -
> the EM-10 with the Tekmar 260. This was before
> the TN4 was available.
>
> The TN4 stuff is
> amazing.
>
> Where in NY are you?
>
> I'm near
> Saratoga.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
Mark. I'm in the mid-hudson valley ,west side of river close to new paltz and kingston. I am relatively new to the hydronic arts, many years in renovation and building, got into this initially as an expansion of those services, I am interested in focusing on this type of work more in the future. I see an opportunity in this field for people who can understand and communicate the advantages that new technologies have brought to this trade. I'm passionate about the importance of energy efficiency and have always emphasized it's importance in the building envelope work that I have done. Mechanical systems, heating specifically are a natural progression of this interest. I'm a big fan of tekmar, very few company's layout the underlying principals of there products with such clear and un-commercialized bias.
0 -
> the EM-10 with the Tekmar 260. This was before
> the TN4 was available.
>
> The TN4 stuff is
> amazing.
>
> Where in NY are you?
>
> I'm near
> Saratoga.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
Mark. I'm in the mid-hudson valley ,west side of river close to new paltz and kingston. I am relatively new to the hydronic arts, many years in renovation and building, got into this initially as an expansion of those services, I am interested in focusing on this type of work more in the future. I see an opportunity in this field for people who can understand and communicate the advantages that new technologies have brought to this trade. I'm passionate about the importance of energy efficiency and have always emphasized it's importance in the building envelope work that I have done. Mechanical systems, heating specifically are a natural progression of this interest. I'm a big fan of tekmar, very few company's layout the underlying principals of there products with such clear and un-commercialized bias.
0 -
> the EM-10 with the Tekmar 260. This was before
> the TN4 was available.
>
> The TN4 stuff is
> amazing.
>
> Where in NY are you?
>
> I'm near
> Saratoga.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
Mark. I'm in the mid-hudson valley ,west side of river close to new paltz and kingston. I am relatively new to the hydronic arts, many years in renovation and building, got into this initially as an expansion of those services, I am interested in focusing on this type of work more in the future. I see an opportunity in this field for people who can understand and communicate the advantages that new technologies have brought to this trade. I'm passionate about the importance of energy efficiency and have always emphasized it's importance in the building envelope work that I have done. Mechanical systems, heating specifically are a natural progression of this interest. I'm a big fan of tekmar, very few company's layout the underlying principals of there products with such clear and un-commercialized bias.
0 -
> the EM-10 with the Tekmar 260. This was before
> the TN4 was available.
>
> The TN4 stuff is
> amazing.
>
> Where in NY are you?
>
> I'm near
> Saratoga.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
Mark. I'm in the mid-hudson valley ,west side of river close to new paltz and kingston. I am relatively new to the hydronic arts, many years in renovation and building, got into this initially as an expansion of those services, I am interested in focusing on this type of work more in the future. I see an opportunity in this field for people who can understand and communicate the advantages that new technologies have brought to this trade. I'm passionate about the importance of energy efficiency and have always emphasized it's importance in the building envelope work that I have done. Mechanical systems, heating specifically are a natural progression of this interest. I'm a big fan of tekmar, very few company's layout the underlying principals of there products with such clear and un-commercialized bias.
0 -
> the EM-10 with the Tekmar 260. This was before
> the TN4 was available.
>
> The TN4 stuff is
> amazing.
>
> Where in NY are you?
>
> I'm near
> Saratoga.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
Mark. I'm in the mid-hudson valley ,west side of river close to new paltz and kingston. I am relatively new to the hydronic arts, many years in renovation and building, got into this initially as an expansion of those services, I am interested in focusing on this type of work more in the future. I see an opportunity in this field for people who can understand and communicate the advantages that new technologies have brought to this trade. I'm passionate about the importance of energy efficiency and have always emphasized it's importance in the building envelope work that I have done. Mechanical systems, heating specifically are a natural progression of this interest. I'm a big fan of tekmar, very few company's layout the underlying principals of there products with such clear and un-commercialized bias.
0 -
Mark. I'm in the mid-hudson valley ,west side of river close to new paltz and kingston. I am relatively new to the hydronic arts, many years in renovation and building, got into this initially as an expansion of those services, I am interested in focusing on this type of work more in the future. I see an opportunity in this field for people who can understand and communicate the advantages that new technologies have brought to this trade. I'm passionate about the importance of energy efficiency and have always emphasized it's importance in the building envelope work that I have done. Mechanical systems, heating specifically are a natural progression of this interest. I'm a big fan of tekmar, very few company's layout the underlying principals of there products with such clear and un-commercialized bias.0 -
> the EM-10 with the Tekmar 260. This was before
> the TN4 was available.
>
> The TN4 stuff is
> amazing.
>
> Where in NY are you?
>
> I'm near
> Saratoga.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
Mark. I'm in the mid-hudson valley ,west side of river close to new paltz and kingston. I am relatively new to the hydronic arts, many years in renovation and building, got into this initially as an expansion of those services, I am interested in focusing on this type of work more in the future. I see an opportunity in this field for people who can understand and communicate the advantages that new technologies have brought to this trade. I'm passionate about the importance of energy efficiency and have always emphasized it's importance in the building envelope work that I have done. Mechanical systems, heating specifically are a natural progression of this interest. I'm a big fan of tekmar, very few company's layout the underlying principals of there products with such clear and un-commercialized bias.
0 -
> the EM-10 with the Tekmar 260. This was before
> the TN4 was available.
>
> The TN4 stuff is
> amazing.
>
> Where in NY are you?
>
> I'm near
> Saratoga.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
Mark. I'm in the mid-hudson valley ,west side of river close to new paltz and kingston. I am relatively new to the hydronic arts, many years in renovation and building, got into this initially as an expansion of those services, I am interested in focusing on this type of work more in the future. I see an opportunity in this field for people who can understand and communicate the advantages that new technologies have brought to this trade. I'm passionate about the importance of energy efficiency and have always emphasized it's importance in the building envelope work that I have done. Mechanical systems, heating specifically are a natural progression of this interest. I'm a big fan of tekmar, very few company's layout the underlying principals of there products with such clear and un-commercialized bias.
0 -
> the EM-10 with the Tekmar 260. This was before
> the TN4 was available.
>
> The TN4 stuff is
> amazing.
>
> Where in NY are you?
>
> I'm near
> Saratoga.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
Mark. I'm in the mid-hudson valley ,west side of river close to new paltz and kingston. I am relatively new to the hydronic arts, many years in renovation and building, got into this initially as an expansion of those services, I am interested in focusing on this type of work more in the future. I see an opportunity in this field for people who can understand and communicate the advantages that new technologies have brought to this trade. I'm passionate about the importance of energy efficiency and have always emphasized it's importance in the building envelope work that I have done. Mechanical systems, heating specifically are a natural progression of this interest. I'm a big fan of tekmar, very few company's layout the underlying principals of there products with such clear and un-commercialized bias.
0 -
The author is?
Is this book going to be in Barnes and Noble?0 -
JP.. no, he's saying that the heat loss is being exactly replaced, thus no movement in room temperature.0 -
understood and that's a great post mike. You are absolutely right that there is a glaring hole in the tN4 multi zone setup.. you can't have a truly constant, truly minimal shift load on multi zone setups. You can get pretty close if you manage water temperatures by varying installation methods and flow rates, and mix second water temperatures when needed... even viessmann systems typically have mutiple mixing valves.
The first question is whether this efficiency increase is ever enough to pay for all the extra equipment (controls and hardware to mix another constant circ water temp are not cheap) when depends in part on how close to this ideal we get in our multi zone system. with tN4 indoor feedback, PWM cycling in lower demand zones, and proper design to narrow the water temperature requirements across zones, I have say I think we can get pretty close, which also giving the client a system that CAN respond quickly, CAN do whatever needs to be done at all times no matter what.
Basically I think the two systems are pretty close. The TRV/constant circ system still needs to deal with the below min-mod loads, that is the cycling loads, and in that case you're talking about a buffer tank... OR you're talking about being inferior to the tN4's ability to manage cycling loads on the boiler. By the time you add that buffer tank, you could have had tN4 in all likelihood.
Does that mean it's six and one half dozen or the other? Sacrifice low end, large time efficiency or high end, short time efficiency (time over the course of the entire heating season)?
could be. Personally, I think they are both great systems, but TRV/FHV systems are for people who are willing to work around their heating system, and tN4 is for normal people who need their heating system to outsmart them
0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.7K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 56 Biomass
- 423 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 104 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.6K Gas Heating
- 103 Geothermal
- 159 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.6K Oil Heating
- 69 Pipe Deterioration
- 942 Plumbing
- 6.2K Radiant Heating
- 385 Solar
- 15.3K Strictly Steam
- 3.4K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 43 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 18 Recall Announcements